[Glen]

There are so many rumours flying around about swap deals, straight money deals etc. etc. between Juve and Lazio, but this one seemed more official than most, and could prompt more negotiations in the future.

http://www.soccerage.com/it/13/d4486.html

Fabrizio Miccoli, 22 years old, is one of the top performers in serie B, and has scored 14 goals for Ternana this season in 29 matches (well 17 in 32 when counting the Coppa). When looking at ratings on the Datasport homepage- he is listed just ABOVE Christian Vieri on a 3rd. place as far as average ratings are concerned. Only Ronaldo and Baggio ahead of him. To my knowledge he is a small, skillfull forward, and the suggested price is 15 million€. The article says that Juve has paid this price, but "given" him to Lazio.

With Lazio's serious economical difficulties- spending money is extremely difficult, and thus getting new recruits should primarily be obtained through swap deals and likewise trades.

Well- this is a very talented and succesfull, young Italian forward. The suggested price seems to indicate that there's something Juve wants.

Leaving Nesta out of the equation, as Cragnotti has pretty much based his reputation and honour on him staying, there's Crespo left for the big money. Crespo- who I see many here consider as good as sold.

Other than that- Davids may leave Juve and Italy, which is why Giannichedda and Liverani could be interesting.

Has any of you heard anything about this Miccoli deal ?

Ciao.

 

[AquilaBelga]

I heard about it...... and dismissed it as it is yet another rumour...

Lazio money problems by the way? We just got € 100 000 000 ....

 

[utopia]

Lazio money problems by the way? We just got € 100 000 000 ....

:googly:

 

[AMOROSO!]

The Gazzetta kinda disagrees AquilaBelga...

Fiorentina, Lazio e Venezia in serie A; Crotone, Genoa, Napoli, Palermo, Sampdoria e Vicenza in B le societa' in ritardo nel pagamento degli stipendi. (Gazzetta dello Sport)

 

[Glen]

AquilaBelga: I don't mean to be rude, but what the XXXX are you talking about ?

Lazio may have gotten a 100 million€ cash injection. I saw Cragnotti state that, but you don't really believe it's a "gift" right ?
Either they further destabilized the sharevalue of the club by issuing new shares and give them to investors (rendering the current shares even more unstable) or they got some good loans.

Calciomercato today reports that you have a deficit of 103 million€ , so most likely- loans (either regular loans or share generated ones) have been obtained to cover that deficit and leave you in the clear on the 3/1 ratio necessary to play in serie A.
Add to that that you have pretty hefty salary expenses, won't be playing in CL next season, TV revenues are going down, as are gate receipts due to declining results on the pitch...

Yeah- I think it's fair to say that Lazio has financial problems. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about Nesta/Crespo leaving or a salary cap in the first place now would we ?

Again- I didn't mean to be offensive, but unless we agree there's a problem.. then what is this? Alice in Wonderland ?

As far as Miccoli goes- that can clearly be just another rumour as you said.

Ciao.

 

[aca]

Crag did manage to get hold of approx Euro 118 million by issuing nes share issue (Crag kept 50% of this issue so that ownership remains in his hands)

Unfortunately, that will be just enough to pay the current debts and (if Crag is to be trusted on this) keep Crespo and Nesta for another season.

 

[AquilaBelga]

ugh... first of all I'm not a financial expert and I am against football fans talking about the financial status of the clubs.... It just doesn't have anything to do with us!
Second I'm not saying Lazio is wealthy, but saying that Lazio is in a financial crisis is bullsh*t as well...

Amoroso: that article is torn out of context.... don't you think some of the mercenari would've started to cry and talk in the press if there had been a financial situation? Crag has clearly explained the players and the shareholders what his plans are...but what do you know about that right?

Glenn: Calciomercato? PRRRRRRrrrrrr :howler: (no offence)
besides: gate receipts declining? We're not As Roma with all their glory hunters mate We have one of the most faithful fans in the world... did you know when Lazio had to play play-offs in order to avoid relegation to serie C in 87 (Lazio started with -9 points that season.... when only 2 points were awarded for a win) 50 000 fans went to Naples to support Lazio? But I guess that's beside the issue

And last but not least: stick your noses in your own business!

 

[AMOROSO!]

Denial is an easy way to undisturbed, yet fake, happyness...

 

[AMOROSO!]

Just for the sake of it, you are wrong on the attandance issue. Lazio had a 13,4% lower attandance so far this season, third biggest reduction in the league behind only clubs which are likely to be relegated, Udinese and Fiorentina.

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/aveita.htm

So Roma are glory hunters eh?

Season - Average attendances

1998-1999 Lazio: 53.184 Roma: 54.309
1999-2000 Lazio: 51.956 Roma: 58.915
2000-2001 Lazio: 47.492 Roma: 64.270
2001-2002 Lazio: 41.125 Roma: 58.563

http://digilander.iol.it/stadiapostcardsdgl/d.htm

 

[Glen]

AquilaBelga: Well, at the risk of enraging you by sticking my nose into other teams affairs AND furthering the economic points in the first place- I will have to continue .
On that- I simply cannot understand why you feel fans should be completely ostracized from the financial aspects of the game? It is what controls football afterall, and without some knowledge or appreciation of the clubs financial possibilities- then how can you ever question a purchase or a sale? Really- I just don't understand you that's all.

I happen to think that at least SOME laziali would like to be able to brace themselves to what may happen, without buying into Crag's rhetoric.

What has in fact happened is that Crag has insured the necessary capital to cover the debts. It's a short-time solution though, as I understand from Aca's post and other sources, that half the money (59 million€) are coming from loans. Those installments will still have to be paid, and it will be debt showing up on accounts in the years to come.

What is more. CL is out of the question. This years budget was "balanced" on Lazio making the CL quarterfinals, AND qualifying for CL once again- which means that without stong actions- next years budget is already screwed up too.

Crag has already identified the solution which is good for him and in the long term... Lazio. You've already heard it too- salary cap, and fewer players, as you won't need the same squad without CL. More- the Stam installments aren't being payed, and according to Gazzetta (is that better ?)- neither are the wages.

Yet- Sorin is bought, rumours are flying around, Lazio bosses commenting on tracking this or that player, and last week Crag comes out and states that his "great plan" will secure that Nesta and Crespo can stay.



What exactly is the wagecap if not an attempt to lower expenditure on salaries ? There's no point in setting the wage cap on the level where the max earners are already. It solves nothing unless the top is taken off as well as lowering all salaries either accordingly, or in any way, at least marginally.

Nesta and Crespo are the highest earners. They will be asked to take pay cuts along with the rest, and more likely than not- these cuts won't be small ones looking at the budget deficits.
Will they then accept substantial (again- they have to be- otherwise the salary cap makes no sense to begin with) pay cuts, when they're among the very, very best for their positions, and will be able to earn the same or more elsewhere ? Of course not.

What will Crag say then... "these ungratefull mercenaries care more about money than the shirt, I had to sell them to save Lazio" and at least some fans will agree with him/pretend to understand what he's saying, thus making the eventual sale of either one or both stars easier to swallow. I bet this is what he has planned for a while. He knows there's nothing else he can do, and just like he tried to blame Veron and Nedved for signing lucrative contracts after they did it- he will do it to Nesta and Crespo to save face. Veron loved Lazio and Nedved cried when he was sold.

In truth- Crag has gambled SO hard on Lazio to continue their super succesfull spree from 1998/1999 onwards that he ruined the grounds on which Lazio operates. Credit to him for spending his own money, but it's clear it cannot go on anymore. Two more season like this- and it would surely be bye bye serie A on debt alone.

Why he cannot be honest about it I simply do not understand. From a fans perspective- he did an admirable attempt in pushing Lazio all the way up to the pinnacle, and he wasn't that far from getting there either. He just didn't hark the breaks soon enough when it went wrong. Still- his financial support is crucial, and if he's honest- I can't think that people won't respect him more ? How do you feel about that ?

In somewhat lowering the salaries and getting something like 120-140million€ for the top pair- much is restored. With clewer purchases and more stability instead of buying/selling media stars every season- there's no reason to suspect Lazio can't still be a CL contender every year. You have the fans, and a stillgrowing foreign fanbase + many great players even after selling the stars + the Mendieta who has failed so grotesquely.

What I'm saying is that this:

_____________Lopez______Muzzi_____________
__________________Fiore___________________
Sorin_______Simeone___Giannichedda____*Oddo
__________Negro___Couto___Stam___________
_________________Peruzzi__________________

...is a great, great team. It's obviously not what you would have hoped for a year ago, but it can still give great results to Lazio, and Lazio would look closer to longlasting safety and success for it.

Ciao.

 

[aca]

Glen i dont know where to start from? :tongue:

There is lot of sense in what you are saying.

Football for Crag is money. There is no discussion about it. He got into calcio for the money, he will go out of it when there is no money.

One interesting thing about Crag is that he's self-made. He bulid his "empire" on his own. He's a gambler and he's definitevly not a quiter.

He's gambling again. He's puting what he's got on one card. Lazio's next season. Thats why the loans, thats why the new shares, thats why he's ready again to spend big and make Lazio prime scudetto contendant once again.

Two points i want to make:

First regarding loans, interests and similar. In the world of finances that just a cost of borrowing money. In the long run it can ruin business cash flow and lead to bancruptcy. Now, we are not talking small amounts. If there is a danger of going under none woul give him money. If the danger comes, the lenders have option to either re-finance repayment or lose the money. Usually, second option happens. At the same time, 100 or so million in the hands of the guy that knows what he's doing can turn ino way, way more. Enough to cover the interest due on the initial amount. Now, Crag has a vague idea what football consists of, but he has a pretty good idea what to do with the money...

Second, salary cap. Introducing salary cap doesnt mean that some players will have to take a wage cut. Salary cap is set on the total amount that management pays out to the players over one financial year. That means that If you set your Max on 85 million and you have two, or three "stars" that are making 20 between them, you have 55 million for the rest of the squad. (this is just a blunt example). If you need to pay more...rather than offering flat weekly or monthly amount to the player, new contracts will have to be performance based. This will make Lazio, and any other team if salary cap is introduced accross the board in Seria A, to keep the core of the team at high wages, and for the rest turn to young players and players that are "medium: weight rather than creating teams full of "stars".

Obviously, this can work only if all of the Seria A teams join the wagon (in the long run). In the short term...it can give Crag good excuse to sell players...and blame it on them..mercenari as Glen put it

Besides....Selling Crespo in the state Lazio is now (ie Dire Straits) is not a bad idea at all.

 

[Glen]

Aca: On the salary cap you are of course right. In principle at least . Also on the "need" for other serie A clubs (all actually) to introduce the same for it to function in the long run.

As for the first part; assuming that the total salaries actually have to go down, that means you either make the "medium" players all take pay cuts, or you sell the topearners, introduce the salalry cap, and base your future investment on that (the second option is manageble). If the stars aren't sold, you need all players to take pay cuts, and realistically- why would they want to do that ?
Unless Lazio players are completely different than other footballers- then they won't accept it, and Crag will then (if he WANTS to keep the stars) have to sell big earners like Mendieta, Fiore, Stam, Lopez etc. and buy very cheap players or not replace them at all. That way it could propably work, but is that going to work in correspondence to Crag betting on instant success again ? Without depth ?
Keeping the stars and wiping our depth speaks for going full throttle on immediate success. My point is that this doesn't make any sense.

On the second part; it won't happen unless you can get an agreememt for UEFA to install a common deal, and teams like Real, Juve, Man.U, Inter etc. will never agree to it. And why would they ? If only serie A clubs do this- they might as well say "Hello Sapin and England". Offer our players higher salaries, and we'll be forced to sell.
It works in a closed, private owned system like the US pro leagues, and only there.

But I think we agree along the way :

Ciao.

 

[Youness]

there is a big mediatic manipultion there.. there is always a big scandale in the home of SSLAZIO , either it's racism or doping or bankruptcy...there is always one of those matters that are put on the light in our team...

after many seasons of this ,I understood that media talks are crap.. nothing more...

I just remind you that last year everybody was talking about money problem in LAZIO but Crag ended by buying players like : Fiore=25m$ + Mendieta=45m$ +Stam=20m$ and a couple of other players... that's a big spending for a team in bankruptcy

and now this team which they say that is in big troubles financially is bidding for the up to 25m$Dacourt and VanBommel and the 40m$ Veron and is categorically refusing bids on their up to 60m$ Nesta and Crespo...

I repeat : media crap

 

[AMOROSO!]

You got Fiore and Mendieta with the money from the sales of Nedved and Veron... as for Stam, you still have not paid for him! Man Utd will take you to a FIFA court soon...

 

[AquilaBelga]

hmmm did you people have the same problem posting yesterday?

Anyway, as I already said I'm not gonna continue talking about this sort of crap..... When you people have a girlfriend (hmm unlikely but still) does everything depend on money too? That would be pretty pathetic now wouldn' t it? Same goes for my other love, Lazio -- I don't give a damn about its financial situation, we've been trough relegation to serie B, we were almost relegated to serie C because of a betting scandal in the end we started the 87-88 season with -9 in Serie B and still managed to survive with a mediocre team.... We never gave up and rose again, winning 7 titles in just 3 years.... and now you think I'm gonna be preoccupied because of some financial mumbo-jumbo? HAHAHAAHAHAHA!!!!


Solo i vili e mediocri conoscono la sconfitta.... NOI SIAMO GRANDI E RISORGEREMO!!

 

[Youness]

You got Fiore and Mendieta with the money from the sales of Nedved and Veron...

that's what I mean Amo ! if Lazio's financial situation was that bad Crag would have kept this money he got from those sellings insteed of spending it on new signings again...

 

[AMOROSO!]

But Mendieta and Fiore costed less than Veron and Nedved were sold...

And not paying for someone you buy (Stam) is a sign of financial safety?

 

[Youness]

But Mendieta and Fiore costed less than Veron and Nedved were sold...

And not paying for someone you buy (Stam) is a sign of financial safety?

I don't think that Fiore and Mendieta cost less than Veron and Nedved ... there is always a lot depenses to make to sign new players ... contract premiums and all the other things...

and I don't think that Crag would have started hunting new players who costs a lot if he don't have the intention to pay his debts to the other clubs... plus.. he is officially negociating with ManU about Veron , these negociations wouldn't have started if there wasn't any mutual confidence between the two parts...

 

[Biancoceleste]

WOW, this is one of the best discussions in this forum in a looong time.

There is no denying Lazio is in financial problems, Cragnotti even sadi that hinself and the way he raised money this time is somewhat curious. Although we fans love the team because of passion we can't just overlook the money involved in football. Like it or not, todays football is filled with more money than ever, so why can't we fans be allowed to discuss it?