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Discussion Starter #1
I realise a lot of people are shocked by tonights result but on consideration of performances in general is it really that shocking? I'm talking about during the whole season. Juve played tonight as they have played all season, albeit an awful lot worse. Del Piero and Nedved are the real creative sparks in the team but even with them could Juve really ever be described as a footballing side? Not really, they are simply a solid side with a couple of key individuals who do the bare minimum to win football matches. I believe that without those key players tonight the team was shown up for what it is and has been all season, an ordinary side who have had an outrageous amount of good fortune. They were lucky to lose 2-0 tonight, the only players who looked like they wanted it out there were Buffon, Zambrotta and Cannavaro. The rest were abysmal.
Without Del Piero and Nedved the team played such 1 dimensional football even Liverpool would have been disgusted. Relentlessly booting long balls to the forwards (incidentally tonight proved once again that Trezegue and Zlatan are not compatible as a strikeforce) and bypassing the midfield, is this really the kind of style of a team with aspirations of actually winning this trophy? Players like Vieira and Emerson went missing when needed tonight and to be honest Vieira hasn't had a good season overall. Players like Mutu, Camoranesi and Zebina have never been good enough for a side like Juve and tonight was further evidence of this.
Juve have been scraping slim wins against weak teams and have been outrageously lucky in most of the big games this season (games against Inter, Bayern, Bremen and Milan spring to mind). True they will probably retain Lo Scudetto but in terms of football Juve are worlds away from both Milan sides. At the moment people must be wondering how on earth Juve are 8 points ahead of Milan.
However with the right attitude at home and another large slice of luck i still wouldn't rule Juve out of the tie... It might be no harm that Vieira, Camoranesi and Zebina are out.
 

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No they have run out of pace. they had their peak before christmas. Teams like Milan and Arsenal have their peak right now, which can be seen on recent results.
 

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it dont have to be necesary a 3-5-2,
one of the best options is a 4-3-1-2,
the use of a playmaker, a man who is able to create some chances and provide the attackers.

Capello's team is a very organized team, created especially for a long league type of competion,
the very defensive style of playing with the slow tempo, is able to guarantee Juve the advantage over the great majority of the Italian teams,
the team doesnt have to create, that means we dont have to rely on a players play and day form to get our team work anf the final result,
the team does exactly whats its needed to win most of the games against the inferior serie A team in a very constant day,
other teams may win with spectacular results like 3-0, 4-1 and then in a day without much of inspiration left make draws or even loose,
Juve is almost imune to that,
also Capello choices,system and players never change,
this is a good thing to keep this consistency, but removes the adaptation abilities of the team in every field and opponent,

this is a choice,

The CL though and Coppa Italia are cup type competitions,
wich favours the spectacle and the that use short bursts of performance,
in the right moment.

Juventus is reaches the limits of its constant performance and cant raise in the occasion,
CL is built in a way that you have to overcome the usual performance of your average game,
esp in the late stages...
 

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Well said, Inquisitor.
If we compare Juve to Arsenal, it's shocking how rigid Capello's formation is. Arsenal's players constantly move around, switch positions, etc. Juve's are practically fixed to their places, 95 % of the time I can guess who has the ball just by looking where he is on the field.

Also Capello's teams always start off in top fitness condition and then suffer physically towards the end of the season. Add to that the fact that he's totally reluctant to rest key players in league games no matter how big the lead in the standing is. That way I can't see him ever winning the CL again.
 

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Out of luck? Juve are simply too old ... physically and mentally. Watching last nights match reminded me of the Real Madrid vs. Barca match earlier this season. In that match, Barca ran rings around Madrid because they were fresh, young and hungry. Madrid didn't have the legs to live with their constant pace and movement. Likewise with Juve last night. Good enough for Serie A obviously ... but then how often do Juve come up against a team with such a high tempo of play in the Italian league?

I fully expect Arsenal to finish the job. Their pace on the counter will prove decisive.
 

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ultra defensive coach with no offensive tactics at all plus a tired team who probably hasnt been rotated enough is the reason why juve are like they are now.

it isnt luck that has had, it is a game plan that has held up well in Serie A but not in europe. That has happened these past two seasons. the team peaks early but slowly slides because the game plan isnt offensive, it is just hard work and efficient and the players get tired. Adding capello's lack of rotation in the squad as a whole, it does make it hard for the players.

but who didnt predict this at the start of the season? the team had probs last season and they were identified by almost every person who watches football. Capello brought in Vieira which was great, but he didnt fix the lack of creativity and he didnt fix the lack of quality back ups in certain areas...midfield and defence.

anyway, many changes are required for next season. I think a coach who wants to play normal football should be first on the list.

PS. I watched Juve vs River (Toyota Cup final) last night and let me tell you, i had tears in my eyes...how could a team play such beautiful exciting football and then 9 years on play the way they do now...watch it, trust me you'll beg for Capello to piss off.
 

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Well Juve's Italian players are the best of the lot, the foreigners were bad v Arsenal...

Anyway for this I will agree if Inquistor big time. Juve is a team for the league. When it comes to the CL they will always find it hard to grind out the results like they can in Serie A.

Milan and especially Inter I feel are much more suited to the CL and will always have more chances to win it right now than Juve who will probably continue to win the scudetto.
 

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in Serie A you can grind down teams and you dont have to be ultra offensive and score loads of goals. But in the CL you must be able to score goals when it counts. What is really sad is that juve has Trez, del piero, zlatan, mutu, camoranesi, nedved and somehow, Capello finds it hard to play some attacking football this season??
 

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CUG said:
What is really sad is that juve has Trez, del piero, zlatan, mutu, camoranesi, nedved and somehow, Capello finds it hard to play some attacking football this season??
Agree a 100% - it is really sad with these players you mentioned not to be able to place them well to have attacking minded football. But I guess Capelo just went for the security and the way he knows it, and somehow Juve management (may I say, unlike Silvio 12 years ago; or even Real M management) let him do that without opposing - as far as we can tell from the distance and the press.

BUT -> He gave you Italian titles and in some ways you are still in the UCL so don’t turn your back completely on Capelo. Most of you were pretty happy with the scrappy 1-0, 3 points in Italy week in and out, so its not fait to suddenly say "He should have play more offensive" If he was playing more offensive, you might have not have the 8 pt lead right now.
 

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bono said:
BUT -> He gave you Italian titles and in some ways you are still in the UCL so don’t turn your back completely on Capelo. Most of you were pretty happy with the scrappy 1-0, 3 points in Italy week in and out, so its not fait to suddenly say "He should have play more offensive" If he was playing more offensive, you might have not have the 8 pt lead right now.
You can't have everything, life is full of compromises, Capello is a pretty much a guarantee of league domination at this point, I have no problem with that, however boring we are at least we're winning. But playing like we did against Arsenal there just is no point in showing up for the CL at all.
 

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The tactics are no doubt outrageous. To play 4-4-2 in every match shows that capello doesnt seem confident at all to change it. The simple fact is its the players that have made the difference on the pitch rather than his tactics in the league. Also you end up seeing the same old team out there day in day out. He has no belief in squad rotation and to be perfectly honest how can he afterall we only have one real attacking midfielder (nedved). I think its time we went out and brought in mascherano and tevez. that should help. Defensively we were never that bad but for the past few seasons we spend more on "strikers" and "defender" and oh yeah "defensive midfielder". What we saw on tuesday was clearly a lack of resource of central attacking midfielders.

What I dont understand is that Olivera was used early part of the season and when he played a bad match his totally out of the lineup. We played a young italian defender too in the early part of the season ( whose name I cant remember). But if he didnt feel confident about the backup team he should have spoke up. Either way I think mixing some youth players with some regulars against arsenal might just do the job. Afterall atleast the youth will show some form of determination.
 

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Somebody said, you go to war with the army you have.. y'all know who i'm talking about. Capello simply plays with the team he has, we are an old team that lacks pace and unfortunately i will have to agree with Dozzer that we have run out of luck. I am not going to be that quick to blame this on Capello because had he tried to take the game to Arsenal we would have been killed even more because of Arsenal's counterattacking ability and pace, which unfortunately do the ageing of our players we lack.
 

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eringi said:
Somebody said, you go to war with the army you have.. y'all know who i'm talking about. Capello simply plays with the team he has
Cack! Why do we have the team we have?
Because Capello over two seasons have gotten in Emerson, Vieira, Cannavaro, Mutu, Giannichedda and Zlatan.
The only key ones staying from before his time are Trez, Zambrotta, Buffon, Thuram, Nedved, Del Piero and Camoranesi. Capello has chosen his army, and as such he is responsible for the team, it's strenghts and it's weakneses. More than anything - he is responsible for the manner in which it plays, or more correctly the fact that it doesn't actually PLAY at all.

Sure - it's efficient and solid when our opponents stand in their last third of their own will, but it won't do the trick in Europe unless we can also integrate a more elaborate way of playing football. If Capello cannot find such a design with the talent at his disposal it is tragic and a major indictment on his credentials.

...and Bono.... could you PLEASE cut the crap about most of us having been only too pleased with the way we've been playing? What kind of bullocks is that when this forum is consistently the most auto-critical as regards the quality of our football on this entire board despite our league success? We are many who has been on this ever since Capello was hired!
 

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What kind of bullocks is that when this forum is consistently the most auto-critical as regards the quality of our football on this entire board despite our league success? We are many who has been on this ever since Capello was hired!
Yes, that's true, I was pleasantly surprised by many of you, not so obsessed with results and results only as I expected from Juvefans. Cudos to you for that.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
It's interesting to note what was said about Juve having all old players... what's even more interesting is that if you look at Milan and Inter, neither team, maybe with the exceptions of Kaka, Adriano and Martins, really have any young players of the quality of Fabregas, Rooney, Ronaldo, Flamini, Toure etc. Yet if you look at the likes of Roma and Fiorentina they have youth in abundance and play very attractive football. I think there's an awful lot to be said for blending raw youth with experience and it could be the reason why Italian teams have not been at the pinnacle of European football in the past few years. Maybe one of these sides need to go out on a limb with youth like Arsenal have and take a chance.
Coming back to Juve, as has been stated the tradition there has never really been about outclassing the opposition, it's been about grinding them down. It will be interesting to see how Capello lines up the side to play Arsenal. I think Nedved has to be considered for a free role behind the front two as i have always believed that that is where he is at his most dangerous and playing him on the left will hamper his influence against this Arsenal team. Can Juve break down the shackles and come out and outclass Arsenal? They'll certainly need a bit of luck along the way....
 
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