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Discussion Starter #1
Following on from the recent claims (baggio, seedolf etc..) that skillful tactically aware players are been forced out of football in favour of players with more physical gifts, an example of this in my mind is the generation of Makelele inspired holding midfield players which seem to have completly killed sweepers from the game.

Remember when most of Europes top teams seemed to have a sweeper who would play in a back five tidying up but have the technical ability and tactical knowlodge to know when and how to step into a midfield that was been over run or push past the midfield and influence the attack when his team was losing? Now instead we seem to have the technically limited guy who sits in front of the defence whatever the context of the game going on around him, a complete hidderence to his team if their chasing a game, waiting for the inevitable substitution 20 minutes from the end.

I'm not saying holding midfielders didn't exsist ten years ago or that Mohammad Diarra's presents in the Real Madrid midfield makes him the footballing antichrist but surely this is an example of the devolution of football.
 

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These players are coach's dreams, and usually play for championship winning sides. Your two examples prove that, as Diarra was Capello's #1 request when he came to Madrid.

It's unattractive, sure. But it wins, and managers will always want that.
 

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why have someone behind the defense, he'd be playing people onside all the time :D
 

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Discussion Starter #4
i wouldn't doubt their effectiveness, the arguement i would make is that as useful as the Diarra, Gattuso, makeleles of this world are their limited compered to sweepers who were common place 10 years or so ago and as a result you have to conclude that football is operating at a more primitive level than in the previous decade.

for example if Matthias Sammer was at madrid now in place of Diarra he could do the same job as him in midfield, drop in to the back four to see out a result or allow the fullbacks to push on if the teams attacks are too narrow or contribute to the attack against unadventurus teams (most of Madrids opposition) depending on the situation.
 

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i wouldn't doubt their effectiveness, the arguement i would make is that as useful as the Diarra, Gattuso, makeleles of this world are their limited compered to sweepers who were common place 10 years or so ago and as a result you have to conclude that football is operating at a more primitive level than in the previous decade.

for example if Matthias Sammer was at madrid now in place of Diarra he could do the same job as him in midfield, drop in to the back four to see out a result or allow the fullbacks to push on if the teams attacks are too narrow or contribute to the attack against unadventurus teams (most of Madrids opposition) depending on the situation.
structure = evolution

sweepers = primitive
 

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it was Hamann, a dm that was a major factor in Liverpool's CL. When they were chasing the result he was subbed in and i don't think he was a hinderance ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #7
sweepers offered the flexibility to play several different strutures at different times of the game.

Hamann in the CL final was simply a case of allowing Gerrard more attacking freedom ( something a sweeper would have done also) and if you remember last years final where Mascherano had Kaka in his pocket for an hour only to be subbed with Liverpool chasing the game, leading to Kaka having too much space and allowing him the time to play in Inzaghi for the killer second, a sweeper could of continued the same job while carrying more goal threat in general play .
 

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Makelele isn't a good example. He's short, not especially fast, not especially strong and relies on his intelligence. I wouldn't say he's an example of physical gifts being used at all. Sissoko on the other hand...
 

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The makeleles have always existed in football and have never forced anyone out. They are simply necessary. A smart coach knows how to balance technique and strength in a team.
 

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Has Makelele killed the sweeper? Move this to the games forum. Can't stand these cluedo questions.
 

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Tactical concepts change over time. I wouldn't call it a devolution. For some reason it's all about 4-man defense nowadays. I guess the teams nowadays are more determined to win the possession battle in midfield and keep a constant close distance control on the opposition's creative players than to explore the more tactically flexible libero system. It might have something to do with the fact that playmaking takes place more deep on midfield nowadays as the AM playmakers are dying out. So it's better to have DM's closer to opposition's playmaking CM's (or helping out fullbacks when facing talented wingers). Sweepers would be too far from where the action is. Many teams play with only one forward up front nowadays so there isn't really much need to have 3men in central defense very often. Also it seems that the midfield positioning patterns when defending and pressing an opponent are more organized and important in the game plan nowadays than in the older days. Physically talented DM's are needed for fulfilling their role there.
 

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all I can say is thank f*ck Gilberto is out of our team now, it's horrible to watch a midfielder so uncomfortable with the ball in his possession.
 

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From a thread on sweepers a few weeks ago:

My eyes lit up when I saw a thread about sweepers. One of the things I miss most in modern football is the elegant libero who could pick the ball up from very deep, organize the team from the back and come out with the ball playing lovely passes, then without possession be able to anticipate and kill off opposition attacks with his intelligence. A beautiful thing to watch.

My personal favourites were Baresi for obvious reasons but also Beckenbauer. Watching old games of his for West Germany and Bayern Munich had an influence on how I even play football. It was fascinating to see a player be able to pick up the ball from the keeper, play a nonchantly inch-perfect pass, trot up to the halfway line at a leisurely pace being in control of the game more than anyone else without breaking into a sweat.

To answer the initial question: sweepers will never completely die in football. As has been mentioned, Egypt played with one only a few days ago in their ACN triumph.

Even more importantly, four years ago Otto Rehhagel's Greece were victorious in Euro 2004 thanks to his tactically astute decision to play with man-markers and Traianos Dellas sweeping up behind them. People were so quick to dismiss and criticise the Greek's style of play, but in my eyes what Otto Rehhagel did showed why football is a beautiful thing. I dont mean aesthetically beautiful. With a relatively technically inferior team he brought in a system which people had forgot to play against in a tournament where zonal marking was the standard.

Playing with a sweeper isnt popular, but if such a system can help win a side a major tournament it shows that it's far from dead.
 

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Makelele not only killed the swipper he killed the Attacking midfielders and forwards that play against him.. what a guy-simply a legend.
 

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There is a definite skill to the job that Makalele does. On the other hand, there are the 'run around like a headless chicken comitting as many fouls as possible' types - not an attractive prospect. Regardless, it's clearly a position that's here to stay. After all, there was a time when the idea of two central defenders was a revolutionary innovation. It's just another example of one coach having an idea that works, and so everyone else wants to copy it.
What would be cool though, is if some one could co back to the likes of 4-2-4 or even 1-3-6 and make it successful. Can't see it happening though;)
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Theres certainly a skill to the Makelele role, anyone who watched michael carrick and Darren feltcher fail to get within 5 yards of Kaka over 3 hours of football couldn't disagree theres a clear technique involved to playing that role well, i just don't see the same level of skill or understanding that most sweepers need to have.

Another arguement for a holding midfielder over a sweeper i've heard is that it allows more flexibility in the attacking third (fullbacks can provide width, three players back at all times means attackers don't need to worry about a particular postion so much so allows greater movement)
 

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playing a DM isnt necessarily bad... nowadays the wing backs are more important than ever... guys like Ashley Cole (in his Arsenal days) or Dani Alves or RC and Cafu before them were allowed to run the wings and such DMS make it possible
 

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playing a DM isnt necessarily bad... nowadays the wing backs are more important than ever... guys like Ashley Cole (in his Arsenal days) or Dani Alves or RC and Cafu before them were allowed to run the wings and such DMS make it possible
You got it right. It is not about DM vs sweeper. The topic should be : Did wingbacks kill the sweepers? In the modern game, the wingers no longer move down the sideline and cross. They cut inside and shoot.... look at Ribery, Ronaldo, Robben, etc. Many times, it is the wingbacks who provide the width and crosses. The CM's role became more defensive because he needs to cover the defense while the wingerbacks attack and leave a hole in the back. In turn, the team cannot have a sweeper running up field with the fullback/wingbacks on the offensive half of the field.

And then, if the player in the CM position became more defensive oriented, the AM or the traditional #10 begins to phrase out more. I just started a topic here about playmaker. For example, if a team starts a player liked Riquelme, they need two CM behind him to anchor the defense.

http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=229983



The topic is much more than just about DM and sweeper.
 

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You got it right. It is not about DM vs sweeper. The topic should be : Did wingbacks kill the sweepers? In the modern game, the wingers no longer move down the sideline and cross. They cut inside and shoot.... look at Ribery, Ronaldo, Robben, etc. Many times, it is the wingbacks who provide the width and crosses. The CM's role became more defensive because he needs to cover the defense while the wingerbacks attack and leave a hole in the back. In turn, the team cannot have a sweeper running up field with the fullback/wingbacks on the offensive half of the field.

And then, if the player in the CM position became more defensive oriented, the AM or the traditional #10 begins to phrase out more. I just started a topic here about playmaker. For example, if a team starts a player liked Riquelme, they need two CM behind him to anchor the defense.

http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=229983



The topic is much more than just about DM and sweeper.
exactly :thumbsup:
 
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