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The question is, what the hell am I laughing about???? The answer is easy, I am so close to cry that I have to laugh to not cry.

If Juventus had won by scoring a great goal and play a great game, without any scandals I would have hoped that they could loose points on Sunday against Perugia away. Now I know that it is not possible, because things are not decided on the field, if Juve has some problems against Perugia (not likely) someone is going to help them. This someone is not a player, if you didn't got it.

I saw in the Juve forum that some Lazio fans accused Juve fans, I don't think we have to accuse Juve fans for anything. They support Juventus, and since they support their team they hope (at least I think they hope) that what they have seen this season is not true, they at least try to find reasons to every "strange" (I would call them scandals) decisions by refs. And we can't blame them for that, because would we think that our team had bought a referee ? I don't think so, we would try to find excuses too. Today I read from some Juve fans "But we played much better than Parma"…and I can't agree more, if there was one team that deserved to win on Delle Alpi today, it was Juventus.
But since football is a game where not always the best win, it doesn't matter if someone deserved or not to win. In football there are rules that should be the same for every team, and today we had the chance to once again see that the rules are not the same for everyone.
I would also mention Roma-Milan, where Bierhoff probably found something on the ground because he suddenly threw himself to the ground, and guess what happened? Milan was awarded a penalty.
I don't care about Roma, but if they had won today they would have had a big chance to reach a CL place for next season, but they were not allowed to because of someone.

I won't mention all the different situations where Parma thought they would have been awarded a penalty. I only want to mention the regular goal by Cannavaro. That goal would have meant that Lazio and Juve had the same points with only one game left to play.
Instead we are now two points behind and have to win at home hoping Perugia to draw or win, but we really believe in that? Not because Perugia isn't good enough but because there are forces that are stronger than the players on the field, and those forces decides many games…

I think that today the credibility of Serie A was totally lost by the rest of the world but also by many Lazio fans, Roma fans and football lovers in Italy.

I am sorry but although our great victory today against Bologna (very difficult game to win) I can't find the happiness that I should have had now.
I also can't stop thinking of all the money I spend on Lazio every year believing that this team can win the league or reach whatever the goals have been during these years. All the time, the passion and the love for Lazio when I see them play or how proud I feel about being a Lazio fan in good and in bad times.

What's the point with all this, if this is not a fair game????

I would also say that I don't think that the referees are bad in Italy, they only do their job. They would never have the courage to disallow a regular goal just because the fun of it. But they know what the result in the game had to be, and the game ended like someone wanted.

I have always written "someone" because I don't want to say that Juve or Milan are the one who are buying referees. There are so many others that could have done that. I hope Italian football federation will resign this summer, it's time to change something and I don't think the ones who should be changed are the referees…. this is something much bigger than just about a normal referee.

I hope to see some mature replies to my post because I really tried my best to not write ******* in every single word. I would also appreciate if a Juve fan could reply.

Forza Lazio


[This message has been edited by AngeloB (edited 07-05-2000).]
 

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It's true that Juve fans can't be blamed for supporting their team,
they have a lot to be happy about right now. But I think it's sad
if they won't admit that winning this way is not justified. Yes Juve
was the better team and yes Juve should have won, but then
Parma scored a goal and the match was level! That's what
football is all about! Sometimes the better team doesn't win.
But then the referee disallowes the goal... and based on what?
Pushing by Cannavaro?? Come on... be serious! The referee
is the man we trust to be honest and fair, the man we expect
to enforce the rules and be unbiased. If the referee was all that
there is no way he could have made the desicion he did! Now I
don't know why he did it, maybe he was bought, maybe he made
a bet on the game, maybe he owed them a favor, maybe... maybe...
maybe. We just don't know why, but we do know that when these
things happen at such an important match, there IS something
going on! This is a serious problem and should be dealt with, as
this can be damaging to the respect of the serie A. Looking
forward to Perugia-Juve, I can only hope there will be no match-
fixing. Looking forward to Lazio-Reggina, I expect us to win. If
that happens and Perugia-Juve will be an honest match, then we
can still win the championship. So we shouldn't stop fighting until
the fight is done!!
 

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I won't change anybody's minds on this one, but I'll just give my opinion on a few things because AngeloB made such an emotional post.
Juventus bribing refs. : Juventus is certainly getting help from refs. from time to time. Few of us Juventus fans at Xtratime will argue that. If You read my reply to AMO at the Juve forum, You'll know my feelings of todays incident- mind you the ref. called a freekick and that was propably not there. The goal was scored afterwards, and he had no way of knowing that would be the outcome.
IF Juventus is bribing refs. there has been no proof of it ever. I will always react to those who claim that's the case, because the refs. financial situations has been investigated over and over and over again. There's NO proof to that.
I do however agree that the board of Lega Calcio ought to go (Nizzola in particular- I don't quite remember the spelling). If nothing else, it will show that Lega Calcio is concerned with the growing frustration, and I believe new people in charge will at least benefit it's reputation. Sometimes You need new faces, and I guess Nizzola's long standing relationship with Juve damages both Juventus reputation and the credibility of the league.
Having said that I again underline that I DON'T believe that there's a conspiracy.
On Boyo's post; I don't know if You've been here long enough to see the last major debate between especially Angelo B and myself on the referee matters. If You have You will know that I always admit it when I think Juve has been
given help from the referee.
Be it Pippo's dives, the certain Oliveira thing, our match against Inter at Delle Alpi etc. etc. In my opinion You are just blowing it out of proportion.
Inzaghi has earned us two penalties with his dives this season, and both of those came in big wins for us (4-1 and 3-0). But reading many of Your posts on him and Juve, it seems like ALL of our 9 penalties this season were earned in this way. It is only two dives ( I know he's tried on MANY other occasions and is propably the worst in the game for doing that), and it must be those two times we use in this debate. Conservatively speaking Boksic and Salas have combined for two penalty winning dives as well in serie A, and I don't think anyone will disagree with me that Ravanelli like's the sport as well (he's even said it himself). You never mention those incidents. You never mention that we've had many sending off's. A coupple of times sending off's that were totally wrong (Davids and Tudor), but the times You think we should have someone sent off and he wasn't You remember only too well.
The claim You have that holds most substance in my opinion is the one about Juve gets few penalties against. I've seen something like 20 Juve games this season, and I think our opponenents have been shorthanded on 4 or 5 occasions. That may sound like alot, but if You look back, I would be interested of knowing how many times this happened for Lazio. Don't say it hasn't because I don't believe that. The irony of this is that 2 of the 3 penalties that has been given against us has been outrageously wrong.
The point is that whenever You hear something bad about the referee in connexion with Juventus it fuels Your suspicions, but whenever You are benefitted it never "even things out a bit". To me that is a bit odd, because refs. are human after all, and to some extend You must expect some errors on their behalf.

In this season I've seen many headliners in Gazzetta with Cragnotti or Eriksson going ballistic because Lazio didn't get a penalty in a match. You guys propably see alot of Lazio matches, and I understand from game recaps that You have indeed been "robbed" of a number of penalties.
Don't think for a second Juventus fans haven't felt the same way (there has been MANY occasions), but whether it's Juve's organization that does not involve itself as much in those matters as Lazio's or it's the fact that it sells papers to question the referees impartially and hint at a conspiracy I don't know. The only thing I think is certain is that the referees are judged with much more scrutiny when they are conducting a Juve game than anywhere else.
If you as Lazio supporters see a Juve game, I'm 100% certain that many of You will have a good deal of attention on how the ref. runs the match, and You don't get this kind of heat anywhere else. Subsequently everyone knows if there has been any faults favouring Juve, while most people are if not oblivious, then don't care as much if it happens for other teams.

Remember, I'm not pretending that Juve is the little white lamb here. It's very possible that we've been treated "better" than Lazio this season, but this whole: I won't care for serie A anymore, what's the point, how can they live with themselves, attitude is out of touch with reality.
This season we've provided You with ammonition to chat Boring, Boring Juve like everyone did it with Arsenal a few years back, but this charade about "Lo scudetto" being won by Juve or Milan before the season even starts is rediculous, and I wish it would stop.

N.B Congratulations on a fine win at Bologna btw. Beppe did all we could have asked of him- sadly it wasn't enough :).

Ciao.
 

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AngeloB, waht can I say? GREAT POST!!!

Glen, you can try and be as nice as you want about it, admitting this and that, but the fact is that you are a juve fan, and in the state of mind that I'm in right now I really don't need any of your sh!t!!!

The bottom line is that you robbed the scudetto this year as you did in the past!
PUNTO E BASTA!!!

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LAZIO E BASTA
 
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Discussion Starter #5
Glen, as I wrote I don't say that Juventus are buying referees. Because I don't want to accuse anyone.
I can only say that the rules are not the same for everyone, and I do not believe either that the league was made up before the season.
I have been fooled again and I have had enough of it. I really hope that Cragnotti is going to take some hard decisions to show that he doesn't want to play this game (with these rules) anymore.

I can't expect you to write, "We won because of referees".

But you bring up those few decisions that Juventus has had against and that we can't realize when we have decisions in our favor. I won't even spend time to reply to this because I feel offended when you bring this up. It's like if I was a little kid that can't realize how many times it has been going "our way" or against.
When I look back at last season I can almost feel that we had the refs on our side, at least if I compare with this season who has been incredible.

And this is not only my opinion but everyone knows and says that this season Lazio has had TOO MANY decisions against. So actually the problem is not Juventus-Parma and the disallowed goal but the fact that we don't receive what we should.
In Italy it is said that during a whole season you have about as many decisions for as against. Unfortunately this can't be said about Lazio this season. Maybe you can bring up games where Juventus players were wrongly sent off, and then you were wrongly awarded a penalty. So maybe Juventus has had about the same decisions for as against. So I won't complain about that.

But that is so far from Lazio's reality it can come. We have had too many decisions against, even more than last year and to me that sounds like something is behind. It can't only be bad luck or just a blind referee in all the games.

And also the fact that in decisive games the decisions are against us, but when Juve plays those games (except Milan-Juve) they are pro-Juve.
And I think that yesterday was the best example because it happened when Juve needed the victory as most.

Forza Lazio
 

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AngeloB; As you made a thorougly sympathetic reply to my post I'll just answer briefly.
I think we see eye to eye on many of these situations, and for confirmation You can look at my topic where I give my last on the refs.
I never intended to infuriate You or anybody else with the comparisons, but I just felt that there was too much attention on Juve being benefitted and Lazio the reverse to get the detailed picture. My sole intention was making at least one of You guys (in this case You :)) recoqnize that it's not each and every game in which we're favored. It's true that yesterday was an example of us being so, but just the same it's almost ironic that Crespo scored the offside goal in injury time in the first meeting (I believe we've discussed that one before right ?).
I think Your assesment about Juve getting as much for as against this season is true (if You count all the penalties we didn't get), but that is a nice situation compared to Lazio's.
By now I'm sure You know that all I wish for is, that more of Your Lazio "colleagues" would see this the same way- that Juve is not the ones to blaim.
I can say that Lazio has been treated bad this season, and that's the reason why I would hope others could be big enough to point theri fingers in another direction than Juve's. I will hope for an unbiased campaign as well nex season, but I honestly don't know who to influence or what steps to take to get there.

Ciao.
 

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Great post too, AngeloB! I see that like many of us you're frustrated, devastated, depressed etc by how things are going, but you manage to be very civil abt it.
And yes, Glen, we're not blaming Juve fans for our misery. Some of us might have posted 'I don't understand why there are still people who support Juve' but I guess that's not actually directed to the fans. And what I see is, the Juve team as in the players themselves are also not for us to blame.
Well, it's inevitable that some of us accuse the referees of favoritism, or even bribery - there's no smoke without fire! But as always before anything is proven I won't comment on it. But people can have their suspicions, I guess. Some of us may have gone beyond the limit in these accusations, I concede, but at the same time, several Juve fans have also been rather unrealistic in defending their team that they won't at least concede that Juve at times have been favored by referee. I realize that Lazio isn't immune to mistakes and flaws as well, so I'm ready to admit those if necessary instead of just chanting 'Lazio can do no wrong!' for we all know that it's not true. No team is perfect!
So I guess as long as those suspicions, those accusations are still at a tolerable and civilised level, we just have to live with it. Defend your team if you feel necessary, but some people have defended their team beyond proportion and go as far as insult the other team! And this only provokes more conflicts -unhealthy conflicts at that.
So hopefully by the end of this season there's no blood-shedding, no one gets evicted from the forum...all in the name of football. Football deserves better than that, and it's up to us fans to bring our logic and not only our emotions into football.
Hey, perhaps my post here doesn't make much sense, but that's just my opinion. I'm still trying to cool down my frustration, and trying very hard not to leash out on anyone in the process (my bro is a Juve fan!)

Forza Lazio
 
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Discussion Starter #8
Glen, since the problem here is not actually Juve (except the scandal in the last game) but Lazio. It's the second year we are the best team but we have to compete against two great teams (Juve this year and Milan last year), but we also have to compete with another one (who often decides games…). And I don't like that.

You can't do anything about Juve getting favors, I know.
But at least do me the favor of not write "but he blew before" or "we were not allowed a penalty 15 years ago".

Please do me this favor, because except the fact that I don't want to read such crap you also make yourself a favor by not look ridiculous.

I hope you and your juve friends can do us all that favor !!
I don't think it's too much I ask, although some other juve fans are still so blind that they don't see what the whole world is seeing.

Things are going this way this season, let's hope that we next season can play after the same rules in a fair championship.

Nedved, Actually I am not calm and civil at all but I try to not let my frustration go out on people who have nothing to do with it.

Forza Lazio
 
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