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in light of the truce declared by ETA, i want to ask these questions. I don't want to inject politics per se into the forum, but the overlap between futbol and politics in Euskadi, as in many other places in the world, is unavoidable.

1. dd eta supporters use Athletic games, whether in San Mames or elsewhere, as a stage for propaganda (banners, flags, songs), or fundraising?

2. Athletic was undoubtedly seen a a metaphor for Basque nationalism inside and outside Euskadi. Did Athletic ever come to been seen as "ETA's team"? was Athletic ever the target of politically motivated actions by supporters outside Euskadi?
 

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eugene said:
in light of the truce declared by ETA, i want to ask these questions. I don't want to inject politics per se into the forum, but the overlap between futbol and politics in Euskadi, as in many other places in the world, is unavoidable.

1. dd eta supporters use Athletic games, whether in San Mames or elsewhere, as a stage for propaganda (banners, flags, songs), or fundraising?
I've seen banners asking to gather the members of ETA in the Spanish prisons in Euskadi, but carried by individuals, more than a massive support to ETA (which I think they don't have). Others can answer better for sure.

2. Athletic was undoubtedly seen a a metaphor for Basque nationalism inside and outside Euskadi. Did Athletic ever come to been seen as "ETA's team"? was Athletic ever the target of politically motivated actions by supporters outside Euskadi?
Sadly, yes. It's common to hear the rival crowds in some stadiums calling them "etarras", as an insult. Well, and also the supporters, like the Real Sociedad fan who was killed in the Calderón few years ago.
 

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The development of "cantera" as a policy resulted from both a revival in Basque Nationalism and the emergence of the Pais Vasco as a leader in the early development of Spanish Football. As well as ETA (who in the beginning was Marxists-leninists) Bilbao, as a city, was a leading port at the heart of an important industrial area with iron mines and shipyards. It was the driving force of the economy and as a result it attracted many migrant workers, as well as organizations who stood the workingclass near, such as ETA.

The club became closely identified with EAJ-PNV, founded in 1895 by the racist and nazi Sabino Arana y Goiri. He was a author of several books and numerous articles arguing that Vascos is "a glorious and special race". He contrasted the Basque and the "Maketo" (people from the rest of Spain who also is called "Maketania").

It is very common at San Mamés that their crowd shanting "Maketos" or "Gitantés" at the Seville players when they are facing the glorious Basques in La Cathedral. More quotes from Arana who founded PNV which Athletic is closely related to:

This is about "Maketos"

"A great number of them seem to be undeniable testimony of Darwin's theory, since rather than men they resemble apes, rather less beastly than gorillas: do not search in their faces for the expression of human intelligence nor of any virtue; their eyes only reveal idiocy and brutishness." Bizcaitarra, no. 27.

"We, the Basques, must avoid the mortal contagion, maintain firm our faith in our ancestors and the serious religiosity that distinguishes us, and purify our customs, before so healthy and exemplary, now so infected and at the point of corruption by the influence of those who have come from outside." La Patria, no. 39.

Regarding to Athletic Bilbao, several prominent members of the EAJ-PNV where also Athletic Members. José Antonio Aguirre a distinguished player with the club in the 1920´s and an EAJ-PNV member became the first elected Basque President in 1936. All subsequent club presidents have been members of this party.

This ideas mentioned could be considered to have spawned both the democratic nationalist movement that currently is supported by a slight majority of the Basques and the terroristband ETA. And then of course, the club itself and it´s "La Raza"-policy.
 

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I'll just give my opinion...

eugene said:
1. dd eta supporters use Athletic games, whether in San Mames or elsewhere, as a stage for propaganda (banners, flags, songs), or fundraising?
I just see it like this, also ETA supporters can be football supporters, and logically they'll support Athletic.
I've never seen 'ETA' flags in San Mamés, don't really know about songs... but I can't believe Athletic fans chant in favour of ETA as the majority of the fans and Basque people is against ETA.

Like Koeman said, there are always individuals with their own things, reminds me of this picture (I know I better can't post, but I try to be objective, so... it's from a CL match against Juve in Delle Alpi, 1997 I think)


However, in my opinion the 'Basque prisoners to Basque Country' flags are fully justified.
It's absolutely a disgrace what happens to Basque prisoners outside Euskadi, I gave an example of that in the political forum so won't say too much about that now, But with that there are lots of Basque prisoners in jail for very vague and unclear reasons without evidence... it's easy to say, 'when ETA bombed that building, you was in the same area and you're Basque, so you're arrested for having links with ETA'
Then you'll get 300 years in prison :rolleyes:

eugene said:
2. Athletic was undoubtedly seen a a metaphor for Basque nationalism inside and outside Euskadi. Did Athletic ever come to been seen as "ETA's team"? was Athletic ever the target of politically motivated actions by supporters outside Euskadi?
Simple to answer, yes. Especially the Madrid ones of course, but they aren't the only ones.
 

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IlPrincipe said:
The development of "cantera" as a policy resulted from both a revival in Basque Nationalism and the emergence of the Pais Vasco as a leader in the early development of Spanish Football. As well as ETA (who in the beginning was Marxists-leninists) Bilbao, as a city, was a leading port at the heart of an important industrial area with iron mines and shipyards. It was the driving force of the economy and as a result it attracted many migrant workers, as well as organizations who stood the workingclass near, such as ETA.

The club became closely identified with EAJ-PNV, founded in 1895 by the racist and nazi Sabino Arana y Goiri. He was a author of several books and numerous articles arguing that Vascos is "a glorious and special race". He contrasted the Basque and the "Maketo" (people from the rest of Spain who also is called "Maketania").

It is very common at San Mamés that their crowd shanting "Maketos" or "Gitantés" at the Seville players when they are facing the glorious Basques in La Cathedral. More quotes from Arana who founded PNV which Athletic is closely related to:

This is about "Maketos"

"A great number of them seem to be undeniable testimony of Darwin's theory, since rather than men they resemble apes, rather less beastly than gorillas: do not search in their faces for the expression of human intelligence nor of any virtue; their eyes only reveal idiocy and brutishness." Bizcaitarra, no. 27.

"We, the Basques, must avoid the mortal contagion, maintain firm our faith in our ancestors and the serious religiosity that distinguishes us, and purify our customs, before so healthy and exemplary, now so infected and at the point of corruption by the influence of those who have come from outside." La Patria, no. 39.

Regarding to Athletic Bilbao, several prominent members of the EAJ-PNV where also Athletic Members. José Antonio Aguirre a distinguished player with the club in the 1920´s and an EAJ-PNV member became the first elected Basque President in 1936. All subsequent club presidents have been members of this party.

This ideas mentioned could be considered to have spawned both the democratic nationalist movement that currently is supported by a slight majority of the Basques and the terroristband ETA. And then of course, the club itself and it´s "La Raza"-policy.
I think with all due respect, you are drawing a very long bow to use the words of Sabino Arana(from 100 +years ago)and the minority of some Athletic fans who support ETA,to make a argument that Athletic are a racist or xenophobic club.

Was Arana a racist? yes, i think when you read his comments , you cant deny that.

did he found the pnv?yes, but that does not mean that the people who form the pnv today are of the same thinking....eg Imaz, Ibarretxe.

I have no doubt that some people chant terms like maketo and the like , but insulting and racist things have also been said at the bernabeu, calderon pizjuan and villamarin to Athletic and other Basque fans by a minority and i dont think you can accuse those clubs of being racist just on the actions of a few bigots.
 

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eugene said:
They were considered the PNV team, yeah, but the right-wingers use to hate Real Sociedad some degrees over, since Guipuzkoa is the most nationalist province (in percentage of votes) of Euskadi.
 

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No doubt their are ETA members who attend matches...why wouldn't they follow the flagship for their nation?

Athletic have raised the profile of the Basque nation over the years, and in that way have served the seperatists well, but to my knowledge they have never directly courted attention on the issue.

It is inevitable that Athletic are sometimes seen as a political pawn, because they are the most frequently seen and talked about feature of the Basque people to the outside world.

That's why they attract so many people......like me :)

They are unique
 

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Come on... Athletic is a Basque club, so their supporters are the reflection of the society. So there are pro-ETA fans and also pro-PP fans. Athletic is a symbol of Basque pride, but I never identified the club with a particular ideology and I think people are wrong when they do it.

Moreover, Athletic must be one of the clubs with more fans in all Spain. I recall the last time Athletic went to Alicante to play against Hércules. There were thousands of Athletic fans. Some Basques... some were not. Athletic is a respected club, even out of Euskadi. It's true that they receive insults, but at the same time, there are many people who see the club with sympathies and they don't have anything to do with the Basque nationalism.

In conclussion: Athletic is a big club with lots of fans and the stands of San Mamés are a reflection of the Basque society. Period.
 

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I don´t think i draw a particular long bow when i does this conclusions:

-Sabino Arana
-PNV
-Athletic Bilbao

PNV had in it´s beginnings, the party established a requirement for it´s members to prove Basque ancestry by having a minimum number of Basque surnames.

Athletich Bilbao has their policies where they put "Bietan Jarrai" as in the blood and the race first.

ETA was even founded by young nationalistists who were affiliated with PNV. It was founded at a university in Bilbao.
 

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IlPrincipe said:
I don´t think i draw a particular long bow when i does this conclusions:

-Sabino Arana
-PNV
-Athletic Bilbao

PNV had in it´s beginnings, the party established a requirement for it´s members to prove Basque ancestry by having a minimum number of Basque surnames.

Athletich Bilbao has their policies where they put "Bietan Jarrai" as in the blood and the race first.

ETA was even founded by young nationalistists who were affiliated with PNV. It was founded at a university in Bilbao.
If we look at the roots of everyone... PSOE was obviously a Marxist party in the 19th century and we all know where PP comes from (still is?)too (Franquismo).

I don't see anything wrong in the all-Basque policy. It's their choice.
 

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Koeman4 said:
If we look at the roots of everyone... PSOE was obviously a Marxist party in the 19th century and we all know where PP comes from (still is?)too (Franquismo).

I don't see anything wrong in the all-Basque policy. It's their choice.
If you with "Franquismo" means that the Partido Popular (earlier AP) was founded by Manuel Fraga, a post-Francoist, that should sound strange in a democratic way. PP is a member of both the International Democrat Union and the Christian Democratic International (PP succeed with the expelling of EAJ-PNV from this institution because of their policies by the way.).

Also, Fraga resigned from AP already in 1986 and in 1989 Partido Popular was founded (CDS+AP). Before that he (Fraga) advocated an extremely gradual transition to democracy. You know, he was punished in the elections of -77 because his earlier close ties to many of the AP´s candidates to the Franco-regime, in that election the former AP only gained 8.3 percent of the vote.
 

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The thread itself, is in a thin line in what we can consider "related to football" but the questions are sincere from a regular poster so I think they can be answered in this forum, why not. Appart, I understand how important is the ETA announcement in all the events in Euskadi, including football of course, you just have to see how coaches & players were asked about it the day after.

The easiest (taking a look at the rules) would be either deleting some posts or move the thread to the politics forum, especially since I´ve already been warned for other 'offtopic' threads. I´m completely against the first as long as there aren´t personal insults and about the second, I´ve read you need 300 posts at least to post there so it could be unfair for the starter of the thread, who wouldn´t have the chance to participate in his own thread.

I´m not touching the thread by now but I hope everyone understands that to talk about quotes of the XIX century (those times when spain had slaves in Cuba) you have the history forum and to talk about elections results you have the politics one. Especially since most of these things are posted by someone who still has to post a football related sentence in the basque FOOTBALL forum, I don´t remember any opinion about players or teams.


1. dd eta supporters use Athletic games, whether in San Mames or elsewhere, as a stage for propaganda (banners, flags, songs), or fundraising?
eta flags are logically prohibited and there aren´t songs in San Mamés, only some rare exceptions by a minority that are automatically whistled by the rest. The basque prisioners flags aren´t an eta cheer thing but a claim for the respect of human rights,(themselves, then the use someone wants to make of them is his problem) then the police in the stadiums have to decide if that´s 'provocative' or not.:rolleyes:

2. Athletic was undoubtedly seen a a metaphor for Basque nationalism inside and outside Euskadi. Did Athletic ever come to been seen as "ETA's team"? was Athletic ever the target of politically motivated actions by supporters outside Euskadi?
Logically Athletic is part of a society that has a political conflict therefore it can be used by all kind of people in all directions. Truth is, Athletic, it´s players and it´s social mass represents basque society, probably in similar percentages as the elections say. Athletic is a club respected by people who like football and hated by all those who use it to criminalize and hate everything that smells to basque.

IlPrincipe said:
It is very common at San Mamés that their crowd shanting "Maketos" or "Gitantés" at the Seville players when they are facing the glorious Basques in La Cathedral.
:howler: good one.

Now my turn:

-Paparl paparl!! quiero ir al circorrrll (Jarl!) no puedo! no puedo!
-Pero qué me dices hijo mido fistro pecadorl de la praderaaaaarll que naciste después de los dolores! Jarl!
Si quieren verterl que vengan a casa por la gloria de mi madrerrrl!!

no puedo no puedo!
:rolleyes:
 

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IlPrincipe said:
I don´t think i draw a particular long bow when i does this conclusions:

-Sabino Arana
-PNV
-Athletic Bilbao

PNV had in it´s beginnings, the party established a requirement for it´s members to prove Basque ancestry by having a minimum number of Basque surnames.

Athletich Bilbao has their policies where they put "Bietan Jarrai" as in the blood and the race first.

ETA was even founded by young nationalistists who were affiliated with PNV. It was founded at a university in Bilbao.
So,this link of Arana-Pnv-Athletic proves what?...That everyone who goes to San Mames to support Athletic thinks the same as Arana?That lamikiz and every president before him has a racist view of all spanish players and fans who come to Bilbao.That PNV hasnt changed in over 100 years?. That Basque society hasnt changed in the same time?

Talking about maketos and the raza is interesting when you look at the recent history of Athletic ,with names like Clemente and Guerrero having a certain prominence and worship among the fans...I wonder how Athletic could cheer and idolise two maketos who dont form part of the glorious sangre vasca? :rolleyes:
 

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IlPrincipe said:
If you with "Franquismo" means that the Partido Popular (earlier AP) was founded by Manuel Fraga, a post-Francoist, that should sound strange in a democratic way. PP is a member of both the International Democrat Union and the Christian Democratic International (PP succeed with the expelling of EAJ-PNV from this institution because of their policies by the way.).

Also, Fraga resigned from AP already in 1986 and in 1989 Partido Popular was founded (CDS+AP). Before that he (Fraga) advocated an extremely gradual transition to democracy. You know, he was punished in the elections of -77 because his earlier close ties to many of the AP´s candidates to the Franco-regime, in that election the former AP only gained 8.3 percent of the vote.
OffT: take some kind of encyclopedy of Franquismo, and search for the results "Mayor Oreja", "Acebes", "Zaplana", and "Fraga".

OnT: I don't know why, but right-wing extremists hate even more Osasuna, than Erreala.
 
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