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International
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Discussion Starter #1
when one of your own gets ousted, as was the case of Aristede in Haite.

Where's the outcry, and the shaming of the US for trying to put the pieces of this country back together, even supporting this corrupt pinko loser, during the 90's only for him to repeat what Duvalier did. Where's the outcry that the UN was once again impotent to the events on this island since Feb 5th?

Where's the outcry to Aristide's accusations that the US kidnapped his sorry ass and sent him to Africa to be guarded by French soldiers??....a sure sign that US wants someone, anyone to take this guy out.
 

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International
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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)

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R.E.,

If you made those comments seriously, you need to read a bit more, even if it is only the American media's version of events.

And yes, that site is a keeper. How many personality types are there?
 

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International
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Discussion Starter #6
Care to address any Tinto or are you just salad dressing bent on blaming the US for this fiasco as well?
 

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Re: Re: Re: Further proof that you pinkos are all alike...

RedEagle said:
I take it back. He's black.

Perhaps that's why there was no outcry from the pinkos.

It would be as ingenius for you to base your assumption of Arestide being to the self proclaimed intelligensia's liking on account of his name being French....

Reading is good for you. Try the good ol' google search :).

RedEagle said:
(here's a definition of pinkos based on internet posting, just to clarify my post)
http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame88.html
:howler:

I know who the troglodyte is, I know which one most resembles me, and... completely unrelated... I thoroughly urge Pila to consider "Profundus Maximus" instead of the hot air balloons from now on :D .

But they're all gems really. Thanks.


....edit.... I had to include this one : http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame35.html

:tongue:
 

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International
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Discussion Starter #8
Re: Re: Re: Re: Further proof that you pinkos are all alike...

Glen said:
It would be as ingenius for you to base your assumption of Arestide being to the self proclaimed intelligensia's liking on account of his name being French....

Reading is good for you. Try the good ol' google search :).

Say what?
My comment is directed to the intelligentsia's silence of Haiti's situation. No comments from you either.

I am stunned that a revolution has taken place and you pinko's have not even posted a memo on it.

It's gotta be because he's black, and not because he carries a french name.
 

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You started out saying one of your own.....

Haiti is a complex subject. Whether Aristide being gone is good or bad is difficult to say.

Aristide ran a failed state. Corruption had a lot to do with it. The International community not stepping in after he was helped back into office by the Clinton administration in ... 1993 (was it?) certainly didn't help either. There are talks of broken promises...

What has now happened is that a selection of regional warlords have forced him out. The democratic movements in the country shudders already as most of the warlords could be every bit as bad as Aristide was, but the UN force should hopefully provide a platform to start from.

If you want to debate the history of Haiti, and the political reasons for the mess they're in... apart from the ever present corruption... then offer something to start the discussion. Silence is not necessaruily compliance you know. Some times it's simply because the issue isn't cut and dry.
 

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Care to address any Tinto or are you just salad dressing bent on blaming the US for this fiasco as well?
One of us does have a suspiciously consistent view of the U.S. and I'm surprised you think it's me. I've defended the U.S. plenty of times in this forum, and I've criticized it too.

I'll begin by saying I'm no expert on Haiti, and could also stand to read a lot more about it myself. Though corruption existed under Aristide, I have not yet seen any accusations of his being personally corrupt, but it's early days there yet.

Seems that first and foremost, Haiti is just too small for the U.S. to care much about one way or the other. If it was on the other side of the world, the U.S. involvement would be zero. In recent years confusion and a near absence of law enforcement made Haiti increasingly popular with drug runners and I'm sure that caught U.S. attention. But basically, since it's on the North American doorstep the U.S. had to be seen to do something. The action has come reluctantly, more for the sake of avoiding the spectacle of the hated French acting almost alone right on the edge of the U.S.

Aristide's main fault appears to be incompetence. He doesn't seem to have understood the enormity of the task he appointed himself. After taking over, he believed he could live up to his ideals where wages and democratic reforms were concerned. He accepted an IMF package, but didn't give in to the usual more obvious violations that "free trade" brings. Since he didn't, the U.S. basically washed its hands of him and let him sink or swim on his own. If the U.S. has sinned here, it appears to be more a sin of omission.

The assortment of characters now vying to take over look even worse than Aristide, with one important difference. Apparently, U.S. business interests are friendly with some of the new faces, and that bodes well for the economy. It should go without saying that any improvements made to the Haitian economy will be 100% on U.S. terms.
 

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International
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Discussion Starter #11
Haiti's history is what is, partly because of French and US meddling and their own inefficiencies to rise above the petty dollar you can make in prostituting a country. In my view it's not debatable.

I was hoping to debate, Aristide's accusations that he was kidnapped, as well as the fact that he was once viewed as the shining hope to that beleaguered country, only to sell it up the river once again.


Thanks for indulging me though.
 

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International
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Discussion Starter #12
Tinto said:

One of us does have a suspiciously consistent view of the U.S. and I'm surprised you think it's me. I've defended the U.S. plenty of times in this forum, and I've criticized it too.

I'll begin by saying I'm no expert on Haiti, and could also stand to read a lot more about it myself. Though corruption existed under Aristide, I have not yet seen any accusations of his being personally corrupt, but it's early days there yet.
Accusations that Aristide created thug gangs to reinforce brutality on those who opposed him is one of the reasons why he was ousted, beyond the fact that he didn't make one single investment for the good of the country while terminating its ability to defend itself with an army or a semblance of a police force.

Tinto said:
Seems that first and foremost, Haiti is just too small for the U.S. to care much about one way or the other. If it was on the other side of the world, the U.S. involvement would be zero.
Off topic and irrelevant but I'll indulge. It took the US to clean up Timor and that certainly is on the other side of the world.


Tinto said:

In recent years confusion and a near absence of law enforcement made Haiti increasingly popular with drug runners and I'm sure that caught U.S. attention. But basically, since it's on the North American doorstep the U.S. had to be seen to do something. The action has come reluctantly, more for the sake of avoiding the spectacle of the hated French acting almost alone right on the edge of the U.S.
The French acting alone you say?! Care to provide a source.

Tinto said:


Aristide's main fault appears to be incompetence. He doesn't seem to have understood the enormity of the task he appointed himself. After taking over, he believed he could live up to his ideals where wages and democratic reforms were concerned. He accepted an IMF package, but didn't give in to the usual more obvious violations that "free trade" brings. Since he didn't, the U.S. basically washed its hands of him and let him sink or swim on his own. If the U.S. has sinned here, it appears to be more a sin of omission.
Aristide's main fault wasn't incompetence. It was the absolute corruption of power. After the 2000 elections when he was accused of rigging elections, that's when the US put up the embargo, not because he didn't play ball.

Tinto said:


The assortment of characters now vying to take over look even worse than Aristide, with one important difference. Apparently, U.S. business interests are friendly with some of the new faces, and that bodes well for the economy. It should go without saying that any improvements made to the Haitian economy will be 100% on U.S. terms.
The one running the country now is a credible judge, however I think it's highly unlikely that the supposed "rebel" leaders will have a say in the future of the country considering the fact that they are butchers in their own right. If they do, then the Haitians are in for another blood bath cycle.
 

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Glen said:
You started out saying one of your own.....
He meant pinkos who have delusions about becoming intelligentsia someday...I think that's what he meant by "your own"

He's right, nary a peep. Strange given the outcry 10 years ago that led our hillbilly yuk-yuk prez to reinstall this guy
 

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Thanks JKris. When I argue with R.E. I sometimes start to doubt what I've said myself since he so often understands something different. ;)

R.E.,

We find ourselves on opposites sides once again huh? I'll tell you, I try to stay dispassionate when debating, but there are some real gems in that last post of yours that are making it difficult.

"It took the U.S. to clean up Timor". Please tell me this is your idea of very dark humour. The U.S. sat back and allowed Indonesia to ravage that country when a word from Washington would have stopped the carnage. They even continued to sell weaponry to Indonesia which was used in E.T. It was only when the carnage had claimed a third of the population that America acted. Cleaned up indeed.

Back to Haiti,

If you know who's in charge now, you should stop by the U.N. on the way home from work and let'em know. Every report I've heard is confused about who's in charge. Not sure why you think it's highly unlikely that people like Guy Phillipe will have a say in the future of Haiti. He just announced himself defacto head of the military. Such as it is.

Sorry I couldn't accommodate you wish to debate the circumstances of Aristide's departure, but I haven't seen any report I'd trust on it.
 

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