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Discussion Starter #1
I told you once on a newsgroup that Baggio is better then Raul and I think that EURO 2000 is proof of that. Now I know that Baggio is not in the tournament but that is because he has problems with Zoff. The reason is simple. Baggio keeps his cool and always performs well, yes bring up that WC 94 shanked penalty and I will just bring up the 3 games Raul played in WC 98 (losing to NIGERIA) and the 3 games he has played so far in Euro 2000. I don't care about club achievements..the national game is what counts.
 

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Marcoa, I'm sorry to tell you that, but this is a lame argument. What do you mean it's only the National that counts? Do you mean to tell me that Paolo Rossi or Toto Scillachi are among the world's best strikers of all times? Or that players like e.g. Redondo that don't play for their National Teams anymore are no good? And National Teams play only a few games within a year, so, what becomes of the remaining performances, they don't count? Not even when they lead to Champions League winners?

There's something wrong with this logic of yours I'm afraid.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
the national game is where stars are born and where overrated players are exposed. If you tell me that Paolo Rossi is no good..our crazy. There is more pressure to perform at the national level and players that succeed here are the true stars. Don't forget on clubs you have a ton of imports helping you out. I am not saying that Raul stinks...that would be an ludicrous statement..because Raul is F*CKING GOOD....but he is not quite on the level of Baggio...yet.... (this is an old argument that Labas and I had). Frankly Spain is currently the Mendieta show...he is the real deal and probably Spains' best player now.
 

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I agree with you on Mendieta. He made a big difference in both games. In this game though, I think that Helguera also made a big difference. I'n mot being biased, I think everybody saw his game, the guy was all over the field for 90 minutes. I'm only sorry that Hierro was injured and didn't play (here I AM being biased :) )

On Raul now, I think two factors should be taken into consideration: 1st he's had a hell of a year with 70 official games and 2nd he's just recovered from a recent injury. Add to these the fact he's only 23 and doing wonders for a couple of years already.....

Baggio is a huge player!!! Which one of them is better, well I guess only time will tell...

I still disagree on the National/Club performances matter ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Don't get me wrong.....I don't want you to think that I mean that you can't be a star at the club level (France just scored..Dugarry) but the international game is whers stars are made. Hala...would you prefer Madrid get the treble or Spain win the Euro?
 

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It's being a Real Madrid fan that has made me a Spanish National fan, not the other way round.
So, this should answer your question.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
so your not a spaniard......would yo rather Real Madrid win the CL or Greece win the Euro?
 

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the Greek National will win a Euro or a WC in no less than 100 years. By then, I'll probably be dead, so I'd rather see Real Madrid win a couple of other ChLs (the 9th, the 10th, the 11th etc)
 

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Well, this is an interesting topic. So let's just analyse things -
France 98 - Raul scores an outrageous goal against Nigeria, unfortunately all for nothing. His performance was average, the effects of a very long and difficult season in Spain. Still not bad for a 20 year old.
Spain-Norway: a terrible game from Spain and nothing can be said about Raul. He had one single chance in the whole gam. He missed. If anyone wants to blame anyone for this performance, blame Guardiola who was atrocious. No passes upfield:mad:
Spain-Slovenia: not the tuffest of oppponents, still a spectacular goal
Spain-Yugoslavia: believe it or not, he was one of the better players on the field. The first goal was his assist, and the penalty was forced by his cross. That's pretty good, but one thing that really came out in this game was the ack of Morientes. Alfonso may have scored 2 goals, but besides that he was easily the worst player on the pitch:(

Anyway this is Raul as always overdone with clubwork and all, and although he's having an average tournament by his standards it can all change./ And speeaking of performances for the national teasm, I think you forget Raul hs 40 caps at the age of 22 and 17 goals!!! That's a lot, and I'm sure it's better than BAggio. About not performing in tournaments,well you can say that about Spain, not only Raul. They have a habit of doing it, unlike Italy, who often suck, but get lucky.
I don't see this discussion being resolved, because I am biased towards Raul,. and you towards Baggio. I still think Raul is better:)

P.S. And to Hala, I agree Helguera was great! Also Munitis proved he's our left winger, and about Hierro. I think he's performed great so far in those two matches. He was certainly the most solid of the pklayers.Don't you think?
 

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Thank you labas! At last!

I thought I was the only Hierro supporter in this forum and I had started to believe I'm crazy or blind or something! :) :)
 

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I think the Spanish team has had a lot of problems with camacho picking the right squad. I mean Valeron has sucked so bad, the same goes for Fran and Urzaiz. Alfonso was terrible too, but he scored those 2 goals!! Paco and Aranzabal have been total flops, the latter really crap! The lack of Morientes has been so oobvious! Hierro for one has impressed me very much and I'm glad to see that:D
 

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ViVa Baggio!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and Raul Madrid said it all!

I dunno why we compare them here, and I dunno why this topic is for Labas, it is odd because we never discussed Baggio here:rolleyes:.
But, interesting discussion:)....and tough question for me.

Honestly, Baggio is my ALL TIMES FAVOR! Yet, Real Madrid is my team, and we all knew that Raul is the soul of our team. So how can I pick one of them? :confused:
If we compare their skill, Baggio RULZZZZZZZZZZ!!! He has good vision, great free-kick skill, fascinating pace and elegant dribbles. An Azzurri without Baggio would lack of inspiration and attraction:(. And we know that there was no his place in Italy anymore:mad:.
On the other hand, Raul is still so young and talented, and La Seleccion already relys on him deeply! The great achievement just is a problem of time, as long as Spain can do well in those big tournaments.

About the comparison of National Team and Clubs, it is even not a question. If we rank a player whether he is great or not, we must consider all sides, both of national side and the club level. In the case of a Spanish player, we'd better see what he did for his club (tough competition there)...even legends as Di Stafano and Michel, they couldn't do much for La Seleccion either. On this side, Raul brought Madrid two CL Cups :), they are true feats, so he is more successful!
The Azzurri side is a different story. When we talk about Serie A, we think about Maradona, van Basten or even Zidane and Veron ect. So the direct place for those Italians to get involve is National Team. Fortunately, though Baggio often switched his club in Serie A, and spent most of time on the bench:(, he always did well in Auzzurri whenever they called him. His performances in WC90, WC94 and even WC98 were brilliant, well, that's quality!:D

So may I say it is a tie? Or Baggio is leading a little bit, but c'mon, Raul still has plenty of time to catch up with him!!!!!
 

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Well, I was so mad but in the same time amused by Camacho last night that I wrote a whole essay about it! I don't have the courage to write it all over again (.....hugh....), so I'll copy it if I may. I'm waiting for your comments.


"Ze, what do you mean the worst coaches are the norwegian and Kevin Keegan? Did you see Camacho's "show" tonight?

What is this guy thinking??????????????????????

He changes Fran with Etxeberria in the 23rd minute I think. So far, so good. Then in half time he pulls out Salgado (a RD) and puts in Munitis. Let's say it's also OK, he scored the 2nd goal. But let's not forget that our already shaky defense is now left with only 3 players (Sergi, Abelardo and Paco) along with poor Helguera that runs up and down the whole field. So, another defensive re-arrangement. And then comes the 60th minute or so. Yugos are down with 10 men and the score is 2-2. And Camacho pulls out another defender Paco to put in Urzaiz!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was watching the game with a friend (we are both spanish fans) and we were duying of laugther! Now we are defending with 2 defensive players (Sergi and Abelardo) while we have 4 attackers in the field (Alfonso, Munitis, Etxeberria, Urzaiz) + Raul!!!!!!!!!!! The spectacle from then on was hilarious! The poor guys probably had never played in such a scheme not even in training! They would confuse positions with one another and could not exchange balls at all, they looked just like a troop of lost sheep! It was not coincidential of course that the 10 men Yugos scored! Neither was the fact we didn't have a single chance for 30 minutes (except for that foul -inside the area in my opinion- of Alfonso).

And to cut a long story short: what kind of genious coaching we saw again tonight! OK, let's say Camacho was desperate (yeah, right, desperate with 30 minutes to go and an even score!!!) so he wanted to play with 4 strikers + Raul (without thinking that in fact they CANNOT play in such a format). What if we HAD scored, let's say in the 65-70 minute, so the score would be 3-2 for Spain.

HOW THE HELL COULD WE EVER MANAGE TO KEEP THAT SCORE FOR 20 MINUTES??? Would Camacho go in himself to defend?

Aaaahhh, Kevin Keegan has a lot to learn before taking Camacho's crown.

I now rest my case."
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Yes Raul does score spectaculr goals...but so has Baggio...as for your caps argument I don't buy it because I am sure that some 20 year old Andorran prodigy has more caps than Baggio but in no ways is he better than Baggio. Labas don't forget that out of Raul's 18 goals I believe that 7 or 8 of them came against world powers San Marino, Cyprus and a team in shambles...austria. Raul is good, and Baggio is good...but in the mental game Baggio kills Raul and until Raul can tackle that hump...Baggio is better than Raul :)
 

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hala :

Fret not, you're not the only one Hierro fan :D I still support Hierro very much :)

Agreed about Helguera too, now that Spain is through, we may see more of him in action. And Hierro has been quite solid too.

Still wishing to see Casillas play, though. But it's the knockout stage, so it becomes more unlikely. Yet, Canizares wasn't that good actually...

-- Nedved! in mourning :( --
 
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Spain went 30 minutes without a chance? What match did you watch? I hope that it was a gross exaggeration! =)

Also, Exteberria replaced Fran because he was cut open.

What I don't understand is our keepers..... Canizares let some stinkers in last night. I don't know if he dozes off or forgets that you might have to use both hands to stop a shot, but I guarantee that if we play like that in goal on Sunday, we're screwed. Huge difference between the Bleus and Slovenia!

As far as Baggio - I do not pay any attention to Italian league and thus neither the Italian national side (hell, I only care about 2 teams - Los meringues y la seleccion) but all that comes to my mind about Baggio is him putting penalties over the bar =)
 

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Misery did happen to both of them.:(:(:(
Baggio, Raul all missed an important penalty kick!!!!!
I HATE IT!!!!!!! I hate the one whom invented it!:(

Raul is still a hero as Baggio! At lease a hero for Real Madrid!
 
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Hehehe... I guess Baggio and Raul have something in common now. =)

Seriously, I'm not all the upset about the loss. I mean, Raul has to report to pre-season traning in like 3- 3 1/2 weeks. He needs the rest. His fatigue was painfully evident.
 

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Yup, I see it now...when he has nothing to do with the falling behind condition...he just put all his forwards on the pitch...then waiting for the miracle....
He is not really good at tactics....
 
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