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Discussion Starter #1
This is semi-football related, mainly brought on by the issues of footballers praying and fasting.

Why is it that we have such a problem with our players praying? Now I know there are practical issues around fasting and I can understand that professional players can't fast. I ask this because I get this impression... I could be very wrong!!!

I know that we have this long running issue between those who are fanatically religious and those who are staunch morderists. One side uses Islam for its own political gains and the other uses Atatürk for its political gains!

Now I'm not fanatically religious, I don't pray 5 times a day, just take a look at my website and you'll see that there's no mention of religion and the pics of me don't depict me as a bearded turban wearing nutter! I was born in England, I have friends who have different beliefs to myself, which I respect, I work in IT, play football, I go to clubs and rock concerts, not to mention I swear as some'f you may have noticed...

But, I am a Muslim, not a very good one admittedly. i'm also a Turk and an Atatürk'cü... I personally believe that being a muslim is a pre-requisite to being Turkish, simply for the fact that it is the biggest part of the Turkish identity... Take away everything Islamic from being Turkish... Our names, our belief system, our culture, our history, our traditional dress and our historical buildings and monuments and what do you have left? What would the difference be between us and say the English or Greek nations? What would distinguish us from anyone else? NOTHING!!!

So why is it that some Turks are ashamed of saying they're muslim, or that our players pray? Is it because of the religious fanatics who give us a bad name? Possibly! Is it September 11? I doubt it coz this issue's been arround for decades!

Why is it then that people/players from say Brazil don't have the same issue with Catholicism? Why don't they have a problem with Ronaldo wearing a little golden cross around his neck and crossing himself as he runs onto the pitch? He has pride in his culture and his faith, regardless of how religious he is in practice!

The biggest reason of them all is IGNORANCE! I don't claim to know it all, or even a bit, but I do know that we need to educate ourselves and more importantly our children... I know Turks who I play football with, who were born in Turkey and Cyprus, who don't know the first thing about Islam and how it is so deeply inter-related to being Turkish... I mean what on earth were their parents doing?

Ignorance is also a huge problem throughout the muslim world. People are being used and misslead for political purposes under the guise of Islam. This is soo twisted!!!

Anyway, I think I've ranted on for long enough... Basically if Hakan wants to pray before a game, I think we should support that... Praying is a form of meditation, it calms the mind and allows you to focus on the task at hand, and hopefully inspires self-belief and determination.

Once again I hope no one's offended by this, I think that everyone should be free to choose what they want to believe... Zor'nan güzellik olmaz! But we shouldn't allow ourselves especially our children to live in ignorance and be free to be honest about what they believe and who they are be they religious, atheist, black, white straight or gay!

Maybe our problems stem from a lack of faith in ourselves and who we are!

Let's remind ourselves of who we are! Let's have faith! And let's be proud of being Türks!!!

Where's my Mehter Marsi tape... I feel emotional!!! :)

"Ceddin deden, neslin baban Hep kahraman Türk Milleti"!!!
 

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Radioman said:

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Why is it that we have such a problem with our players praying? Now I know there are practical issues around fasting and I can understand that professional players can't fast. I ask this because I get this impression... I could be very wrong!!!
.....
So why is it that some Turks are ashamed of saying they're muslim, or that our players pray? Is it because of the religious fanatics who give us a bad name? Possibly! Is it September 11? I doubt it coz this issue's been arround for decades!
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You are totally right with your observation. But that is not related to September 11 or anything international. It is just that -as you have mentioned- there are people who are trying to use Islam and they try to express this in every opportunity. So players don't want to be considered as one them so they do their praying away from the eyes.

Radioman said:
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But, I am a Muslim, not a very good one admittedly. i'm also a Turk and an Atatürk'cü... I personally believe that being a muslim is a pre-requisite to being Turkish, simply for the fact that it is the biggest part of the Turkish identity... Take away everything Islamic from being Turkish... Our names, our belief system, our culture, our history, our traditional dress and our historical buildings and monuments and what do you have left? What would the difference be between us and say the English or Greek nations? What would distinguish us from anyone else? NOTHING!!!

The biggest reason of them all is IGNORANCE! I don't claim to know it all, or even a bit, but I do know that we need to educate ourselves and more importantly our children... I know Turks who I play football with, who were born in Turkey and Cyprus, who don't know the first thing about Islam and how it is so deeply inter-related to being Turkish... I mean what on earth were their parents doing?
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I don't agree with you here. Being muslim is not the biggest part of the Turkish idendity. Actually it is not a part of Turkish identity. Yes, today Turks are generally muslims but that is because Islam was very suitable to Turkish traditions.

Secondly, You can't say that you can not distinguish Turks from english or greek if they weren't muslims. You can not deny that being a turkish muslim is different from being a muslim. Turkey is a unique country can combine Islam and democracy. There are certainly other countries that are trying but they still have a long way to go, for example Azerbaycan. There are also countries which does not have any tradition except being muslim, no need to give names. The same difference could also be sensed if Turkish people were cristians.

Radioman said:

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Maybe our problems stem from a lack of faith in ourselves and who we are!
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Yes I think we are about to forget who we are but that is not related to religion. We have a history of 10.000 years. Islam only takes a little part.
 

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A lot of players pray in turkey. They just don't do it publicly:). Some of them are Emre, Hakan(sukur and unsal), and many more. No disrpects, but islamic countries have not been islamic, they've presented it as a dark religion. So that is why people look at it as they do. If I wasn't a muslim, I would have the same view, because when i look at islamic states, it looks dark and ugly. True Islam is in Turkey. Islam cannot be forced, its a religion, it has to be individual choice too pick their own religion. So if you are a true muslim, you'll give your country freedom of religious and not pass religous laws.
 

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I am muslim myself, and I respect my religion a lot.
But, my dear friend Radioman, I agree the fact that being muslim is NOT an idendity of being Turk.
I mean, saying Turk, u must not only think about those who live in Turkiye.
Turks also live in Caucasus and Iran(Azerbaijanians), in the Middle Asia.
And not every Turk is a muslim. For example, the Turks that in in Russia, in the Far East are not muslims. Their belief is still shamanism. Or Gagauz Turks who live in Moldova are christians.
But it is true, that Turkiye can combine Islam and Democracy right now. But from ur sentense some people can think that ISlam is non-democratic religion. Indeed, Islam has very democratic principles and laws. OF course, not as those we have in most of constitutions of modern countries, but still , noticing that it was 7th century I can easily say that they are really democratic.
And about once again about democracy, I must say that Azerbaijan still has a lot of things to do to be democratic, but not as much as other Turkish countries have to do. I am very sorry to say that, but countries like Turkmenistan live in the Middle Ages.

I must say that, it is still possible to identify Turk even without Islam. For example, at least our language, and our culture. I can easily say that Azerbaijan culture has such features that any other muslim countries don't have. For example, insturments like Saz, or dance Yalli which are features of Turk culture. Or probably Mughamat, that u can't find anywhere except Azerbaijan.

And at last, the biggest shame is to be ashamed of your religion. If players want to pray - it is their right, and noone can say anything to them for this.
 

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Hey guys,

I enjoy your highly entellectual discussion and kind arguments.

But, I have to point out the fact that discussion like this can lead to passionate fights about politics:eek:

Especially, for the new posters I should inform you that here in XT we try to keep political discussions out.

I know that here in Turkish forums all people nice to each other and most of the time have very close point of views about different issues. (Except the fact that some surprisingly support Galatasaray:eek: :tongue: )

But let's keep our discussion closer to football and farther away from politics;)

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Aragon you're right... You're all right in what you've said! I had my reservations when I started this thread! I knew 'I didn't know it all' and your posts have been very enlightening! :)

I'd like to thank and ask you all to end this discussion and let's concentrate of the footie.

Cheers,

Radioman :)
 

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Aragon said:
But let's keep our discussion closer to football and farther away from politics;)
Don't worry, talking for myself, if you are living in Turkey then you hate politics. I thought this was a cultural discussion, but now I agree that this can lead to unwanted things.

Thanks for your leadship and thanks to everyone sharing his thoughts.
 

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Aragon said:
But let's keep our discussion closer to football and farther away from politics;)
Don't worry, talking for myself, if you are living in Turkey then you hate politics. I thought this was a cultural discussion, but now I agree that this can lead to unwanted things.

Thanks for your leadship and thanks to everyone sharing their vision.
 

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God! we have got a nice/pleasant group of people here!:)

I did have thoughts but as Aragon pointed out, it only takes one person to come in and start slinging mud. But interesting topic of discussion.
 

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Hi all :)

I see you have managed to divert the tone of this thread back to more football-related stuff. That is good! :) Thanks for being alert.

Would just like to ask the FMs of the Turkish forum to be on the alert to posts which border on the politics region. I think nowadays religion seems inextricably linked to politics, and things such as Machine_head's post can be misinterpreted and result in something unpleasant.

I understand that you all are just trying to get the discussion going, but hopefully everybody (FMs, posters, etc) will cooperate to make sure no flames erupt.

Much appreciated! :)

Cheers,
Jun-Lei

P.S: I have edited Machine_head's post.
 

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God! we have got a nice/pleasant group of people here!
You got that right :flirt:

I am proud of being part of this group, thanks again for your cooperation guys:cool:
 

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hey just curious............but which r the famous muslim players..............can any1 name a few.........any european 1s?......apart from turkey,azerbaijan etc?.............just curious......nuthin else
 

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Wow, I am really impressed with this. It is a damn shame that we didn't have more posters like you guys after the Sept. 11th attacks.

We need more posters that can debate patiently, like you guys:proud: Damn shame I had to study for exams the last two days;)
 

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Machine_head_17 said:
edited.......?......i didnt insult any1?.................i just said i hate saudia arabia n the staunch muzlims!:rolleyes:
Quote of the year?


Back to reality; these sort of statements are offensive and have caused many conflicts of interest in the past. It is political, and thus is not allowed on Xtratime. I do know that politics can extend into most walks of life (eg. saying "I hate politics" is also a political statement, etc:rolleyes: ). However these sort of posts are the ones best to avoid.

Thanks :)

Case closed. (As he stamps his foot down).
 
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