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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #1
Something that occurred to me about the poor refereeing in this World Cup.

On the recent (and controversial) quarterfinal game between Spain and Korea, the Egyptian referee committed some major blunders and stained Korea's historical WC campaign with doubt and suspicion. I believe even the Korean fans are somewhat embarassed by the absurd mistakes, and I'm not even discussing the relative merits of the referee's calls - that's not the point of this thread; other threads are devoted to slamming FIFA, the referees, Korea and everything in sight. :rollani: My point is FIFA's criteria when choosing a referee. Follow my reasoning.

It was pretty sure, before the match, that this already-decisive game would feature a crowded stadium making a lot of noise - we all saw Korea's 'red tide' of supporters before. So there would be a lot of pressure on the refs. Now, no offense to our Egyptian friends, but what's the Egyptian league like? Not world-class, I gather. I don't know how 'crowded' Egyptian stadium get on decisive games either, but I suppose it's far less intimidating than a World Cup - mind you, I'm guessing, as I've never heard of any Egyptian teams on any kind of world-class competition. But FIFA had to choose a ref who was neither from Europe nor from Asia. So the Egyptian was chosen.

Now comes my doubt: Brazil's referee in this World Cup, Carlos Eugenio Simon, is a very good ref, accustomed to top-class competition and extremely used to performing under tremendous pressure on overcrowded stadiums. This man has commanded decisive matches on the Maracana, Morumbi, you name it... and also many decisive Libertadores matches on stadiums like La Bombonera and El Centenario de Montevideo. This guy is still in Japan, waiting to get selected to work on some match. This guy is, in short, a world-class referee from South America. WHY did the Egyptian get chosen instead of Simon?

I'm not saying the Egyptian would be 'naturally' less qualified, but it's unlikely that he has Simon's sheer experience. I'm trying to understand WHAT would be the criteria that lead FIFA to prefer the Egyptian over the Brazilian. Maybe some of you guys has a clue about it, 'cause I'm stumped.

I'm sure there are other, extremely qualified refs from other countries, which could be used as examples in this case. I mentioned Simon because I know his work and I know he's still waiting to be selected for a game in the knockout stages. Wouldn't he be perfect for the Spain x Korea match?

Just wondering. :)
Peace.
 

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The Egyptian league is sh!t.

But to answer some of your questions. On the local league derby, which is ranked the 5th best derby in the world by FIFA, the stadium has at least 95,000 fans watching.

I think you just lack info of the referee, regardless of his nationality (which seems to be the problem now with everyone since this game is strictly for classy Brazilians/Italians/Spaniards/Germans only)..

Here is some info about the Egyptian referee who "lacks the experience of big competitions":

- This is his second and last world cup, he refereed more than one game in the WC98 some of them in the quarter finals I believe but the most important one was the 3rd place match between Holland and Croatia.

- He is the only non-European referee in history to be asked by UEFA to referee some of the European championship matches (EURO2000). All other referees must be Europeans.

- He refereed at least 3 African Cup of Nations (last one being ACN2002) and refereed at the Asian Cup of Nations, the top two continental championships in Asia and Africa along with Euro2000 as I mentioned (can you tell me another referee who has refereed the top championship in Europe, Asia AND Africa?). He also refereed in the Confederations cup. Not to mention plenty of friendlies of course..

Not to mention the African champions league, Cup Winners Cup, CAF Cup and I believe he did referee in the Asian champions league as well.

- He refereed Spain 3-1 Paraguay and Brazil 5-2 Costa Rica in this world cup with amazing success.

- He of course referees in the Egyptian league, the best league in Africa according to the fact that the best two clubs in Africa come from Egypt according to CAF.

- He has also refereed for more than one season in the Japanese league after the Japanese officials asked for him in person as he was one of the best in WC98.

- He has been a referee for the past 9-10 years..

So as you see, this referee is not chosen out of the blue or because of the fact that he is "Egyptian", but because he is GOOD. Simple. He is ranked by FIFA as one of the best referees in the world so as you see he does have better experience than Simon and thats why he was elected, not Simon (probably Simon's history in Mexico vs Italy was also another factor why he didnt get chosen while Gamal had a perfect history in the previous matches).

I for the final time ask you to just lose your blindness, forget the referees nationality, dig up his history, his performance, his career and you will find up this is one of the best referees of the world only let down by his linesmen. Garrincha, I know you are not a loser who blamed all the world for Spains exit like some did, in fact I can remember you praised Korea, but dont you notice here that you are basing all your opinion on the referees nationality ?

The question shouldnt be how good/bad this referee is (because he is good) the question should be how could a bunch of European racists defame this referee (in newspapers) for "bad calls" and let the Scottish, English, Danish, Portuguese, Brazilian get away with similar mistakes without being "insulted and defamed" ?

Speaking of the Brazilian referee Simon who is World Class and has better skills than this poor little crappy Egyptian referee who can be insulted because he has refereed in the poor crappy Eyptian league.. Wasnt Carlos Simon, the Brazilian referee you are referring to, the referee of Mexico vs Italy ? Wasnt he the one who cancelled two goals for Italy ? So why are you saying Simon is world class, and Gamal isnt ? This is my problem with such accusations. Everyone makes mistakes, Gamal did minor ones, but what I hate is giving credit to referees from "top countries" even though they did even worse mistakes.

And I still dont see where Gamal went wrong, the first disallowed goal was cancelled for clear shirt pulling/foul on Puyol against Kim and the second "cancelled goal" was the responsibility of the linesman.

PS Gamal Ghandour received a higher rating on the Spain vs Korea match than Simon received on his Mexico vs Italy game according to a TV program I watch on a dedicated Sports Channel.

I think I explained everything. Referees are human, they make mistakes, but apparently when you are from a country where your team doesnt win always your mistakes will not go unforgiven.
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #3
Sabry said:
So as you see, this referee is not chosen out of the blue or because of the fact that he is "Egyptian", but because he is GOOD. Simple. He is ranked by FIFA as one of the best referees in the world so as you see he does have better experience than Simon and thats why he was elected, not Simon (probably Simon's history in Mexico vs Italy was also another factor why he didnt get chosen while Gamal had a perfect history in the previous matches).

I for the final time ask you to just lose your blindness, forget the referees nationality, dig up his history, his performance, his career and you will find up this is one of the best referees of the world only let down by his linesmen. Garrincha, I know you are not a loser who blamed all the world for Spains exit like some did, in fact I can remember you praised Korea, but dont you notice here that you are basing all your opinion on the referees nationality ?
I'm sorry to have insulted you, Sabry. It wasn't what I meant by it. I didn't base my opinion on nationality, but rather on my own huge ignorance regarding the Egyptian league and mr. Gamal; and I stand corrected.

The racism that is being spread around on the forums sickens me too, and I've said that in many posts. Now my own ignorance has driven me to opening this thread, and I'm sorry for it. I just din't know who the referee was and jumped to conclusions without full information - which is never a good idea, I know. :)

Again, sorry if it insulted anybody, I never meant to do that. Peace.
 

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Cachorro
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Discussion Starter #4
Where gamal went wrong

Sabry said:
And I still dont see where Gamal went wrong, the first disallowed goal was cancelled for clear shirt pulling/foul on Puyol against Kim and the second "cancelled goal" was the responsibility of the linesman.
I mostly agree with you. Actually, the big mistake he committed IMO was allowing the Korean 'keeper to move past the goal line on that penalty kick. Other than that, the calls were controversial but not absurd. But he should've told the penalty to be re-taken, and the GK should have seen the yellow card for what he did. That was Gamal's big mistake.
 

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I agree with that, I never said he was right but it would take a lot, and I mean a lot of courage to cancel that saved penalty in a quarter finals of the world cup against 60,000 fans. Still, its not an excuse, but not an aweful mistake either because Joaquin took a delay step.

Anyways, I know this referee too well, I know his history like I know the history of my favourite football club (I always believed he doesnt like my football club either) and I guess my defense for him is because I met him and I know how good and honest this guy is I dont believe anyone can think he would take a bribe on the last day of his great international career.

Just a correction on the notes I posted above, he refereed 4 African cup of Nations and was due to referee the final of the 98 tournament but since Egypt made it to the final and won he was not allowed to referee it of course. But he refereed the final of the african cup of nations in February 2002, Senegal vs Cameroon.

It took us 10 different camera angles and proof from pictures to realise that there was a pull in the first goal by the Spanish attacker, so why cant we accept that there is a great chance referees will make many errors since they have only a split second to make the decision and they can only get to see the play once from one angle only ?

Also, sad news is Said Belkoula, the Moroccan referee who refereed the final of WC98 died about a week ago, he had cancer and he was 46 only (approx). Thats why you saw some referees wearing a black armband. Only months before he died some African teams (and some CAF officials) accused him of taking bribes too but he was one of the best referees I know, I guess its easy for the losers to always blame the referees.
 

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When FIFA announced that Gamal Ghandour has the game, I was glad that they gave the game to one of the best non-European and non-South American referee. It was not the referee's fault for the disallowed goals. If anything, the Ugandan linesman mistaken that the ball has crossed the line and Gamal followed his word for it, since I believe, he did not see what transpired and perhaps only the linesman saw what happened. About the pull inside the box, he saw it and gave a free-kick immediately. No hesitation and the Spanish players simply got on with it and did not complain. Strange that they only make noise when they lost.:(

I would not agree to Simon being appointed to the match since Brazil is still very much in the competition, although they are in the other half of the competition. But chances are, FIFA never gives a game to referees whose countries are still in the WC from the Quarter-Final stages, no matter how good they are. Biasedness might creep in, even though referees are supposed to be fair. And even if they are fair, which I believe all of them are, if there are any controversies, conspiracy theories will be all over in discussions and debates and FIFA, I believe, wants to avoid that as far as possible.

It is sad to hear that Said Belkoula has passed away. If I am not wrong, he is also the first African referee to officiate in the Final. I wondered why he was not here and didn't know that his condition. Africa lost one of their finest judge in football.:(

paw;)
 

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The question shouldnt be how good/bad this referee is (because he is good) the question should be how could a bunch of European racists defame this referee (in newspapers) for "bad calls" and let the Scottish, English, Danish, Portuguese, Brazilian get away with similar mistakes without being "insulted and defamed" ?

Oh god, here we go with the racism violens! I still have not seen which newspapers supposedly are slandering the Egyptian ref with racist insults??? I've visited all the reputable Spanish newspapers such as Marca, ABC, el Pais. And they critize the officials, but don't mention anything about race! In fact Marca critizes the whole tournaments overall officiating. I think you are the one who is racist my friend steroetyping all European newspapers of being racist! Your accusing people on this forum of using racist undertones in their comments. Your doing the same! You know you don't have to be a white European to be racist or stereotype. Your comment is as bad as if I was to say all Middle Eastern newspapers support terrorism! Woudn't that be an unjust and unfounded comment to say? This whole racial thing is stupid, reputable newspapers in Spain don't contribute to this crap. In USA'94 when the Bulgarian ref failed to expell Tassotti for breaking Luis Enrique's nose, Spanish newspapers critized him endlessly and he was European! Perhaps the Egyptian ref had the credentials to ref a game of this level. But, a linesman from Trinadad or Uganada??? No way! And that's not being racist, it's just the facts. There is no way you can have the experience to officiate a game of this level, when you've been in games such as El Salvador vs. Canada! It's not the same. The ref could be yellow, black, purple, white or rainbow colored for all I care. He just doesn't have the experience! It's not about race!!!
 

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Yep.. Perhaps I am a racist.. If that makes you any happy :)

PS "Bunch of Europeans.." thats not "All Europeans..".. Read.. Understand.. Post. ;)
 

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Sabry said:
Yep.. Perhaps I am a racist.. If that makes you any happy :)

PS "Bunch of Europeans.." thats not "All Europeans..".. Read.. Understand.. Post. ;)
Tomatoe, Tomatoe.... What's the difference. Your accustations are still unfounded. Frankly I could care less who you are or whether your racist or not. I'm just commenting on what I've seen in your posts so far and there is as you would put it"a definate undertone of rascism" towards Europeans. Like I said I've read various Spanish newspapers and none have insulted the ref cause of his nationality. Read..Understand..Post.; before making dumb accusations
 

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Sabry said:
Yep.. Perhaps I am a racist.. If that makes you any happy :)

PS "Bunch of Europeans.." thats not "All Europeans..".. Read.. Understand.. Post. ;)
Tomatoe, Tomatoe.... What's the difference. Your accustations are still unfounded. Frankly I could care less who you are or whether your racist or not. I'm just commenting on what I've seen in your posts so far and there is as you would put it"a definate undertone of rascism" towards Europeans. Like I said I've read various Spanish newspapers and none have insulted the ref cause of his nationality. Read..Understand..Post.; before making dumb accusations
 

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I think the colombian ref been the best ref so far.
He migth be alittle bit to strigth, however he sets a standard whats allowed and almost never miss a foul.

Hope he gets the final
 

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I thought they have given the final to Collina.

paw;)
 
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