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Sorry if I'm late to debate LOL

When Southamericans talk about a "classic Nr.10" or "classic enganche" we are thinking of a trequartista or central attacking midfielder with very good skills to control the flow of the team's offensive play "in the hole" and providing through balls and key passes to the forwards, with no defensive duties and don't use to have a high physical display. Then each "Nr.10" has his own style (Valdivia is more "fantasista" than Riquelme but this one is more playmaker than Valdivia).

When Southamericans talk about a "modern Nr.10" we are thinking of 2 cases:

1) A mediapunta or secondstriker withdrawing to link midfielders and forwards.

2) An attacking midfielder with good physical display and more defensive duties.

Football is very simple... no need elaborated scientific analysis to explain roles, tactics or moves.

My friend Heroearaucano... argument from authority (A is an authority on a particular topic. A says something about that topic. A is probably correct ) is not a good choice in a debate, specially when arguments of A are based on personal taste.
 

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God of Beira Rio
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Discussion Starter #162 (Edited)
Sorry if I'm late to debate LOL

When Southamericans talk about a "classic Nr.10" or "classic enganche" we are thinking of a trequartista or central attacking midfielder with very good skills to control the flow of the team's offensive play "in the hole" and providing through balls and key passes to the forwards, with no defensive duties and don't use to have a high physical display. Then each "Nr.10" has his own style (Valdivia is more "fantasista" than Riquelme but this one is more playmaker than Valdivia).

When Southamericans talk about a "modern Nr.10" we are thinking of 2 cases:

1) A mediapunta or secondstriker withdrawing to link midfielders and forwards.

2) An attacking midfielder with good physical display and more defensive duties.

Football is very simple... no need elaborated scientific analysis to explain roles, tactics or moves.

My friend Heroearaucano... argument from authority (A is an authority on a particular topic. A says something about that topic. A is probably correct ) is not a good choice in a debate, specially when arguments of A are based on personal taste.
My friend, this is where you are wrong.

My argument of authority is not based in a data of confrontation, is based on a personal thesis.

I, only I propose that the 10 arise only in South America, as the champagne arise only in France and that is due to cultural issues of nature and football style.

I think I've argued much this issues here before, some friends already assume my idea as a fact.

My friend, I have the capacity to propose and not to repeat as a register, this is genius, I am aspi.

Another of my ideas here, was the identity of South American defense, the preeminence of a phenomenological method to make comparisons between players, separate the classification of player in traits, roles and field position, and others ideas etc.
 

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God of Beira Rio
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Discussion Starter #163
Carlos Reinoso (El maestr8)

iIVrE0hsI88

Carlos Reinoso is officially regarded as the best player in the history of Club America of Mexico*1 and the best historical foreign-player in to play in the Mexican League*2.
He was a classic 10 creative midfielder, but he used the N° 8 by predilection.
The best feature of Carlos Reinoso was the ability to keep the ball and never lose it.
It was a leaden in midfield and also he had a great conduction the ball.

Sources:
*1: http://www2.esmas.com/club-america-v2/salon-de-la-fama/410615/carlos-reinoso/
*2:
*http://mexico.cnn.com/deportes/2013/05/22/en-un-clasico-no-importa-como-jugar-solo-vale-ganar-carlos-reinoso
*https://www.ferplei.com/2010/09/carlos-reinoso-soy-el-mejor-extranjero-en-la-historia-del-futbol-mexicano/
*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jBQ2_9oCgE
 

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God of Beira Rio
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Discussion Starter #164 (Edited)
Omar Abdulrahman , United Arab Emirates, 22 years old! remember this name.

Today he did a great game in the 2015 Asia Cup.
With a beautiful penalty (as Panenka) , he take out to the easterns of tournament.

Look today in Asian Cup
Cymm7dDNPIA

The style of this player is particularly special and remember us the football of a South American classical 10. Is beautiful style.

3Zf0eWX6slQ

But looking at this player is to see another player, your mentor JORGE VALDIVIA.
It is evident for the vision of play and South American style.

Recalling some history, Jorge Valdiva was "boula de prata" in the Brasileirao 2008 and was sold for an exorbitant sum of dolars to the AL AIN team in UAE. The player accepted the bid and was two years in the Arab country, ensuring your future financially. After two years, Jorge Valdivia returns to Palmeira, which continues to shine as a leader and star of Palmeiras of Brazil.
But the important thing is that the beautiful style of Valdivia is leaving influence on players, this is South American influenceand because emphasize that Europe is not the parameter
 

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God of Beira Rio
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Discussion Starter #165 (Edited)
Jorge Valdivia is the direct mentor of Omar Abdulrahman

Soruce in important Arab newspaper:
http://www.thenational.ae/sport/world-cup-2014/fanbase-for-chilex2019s-jorge-valdivia-still-very-strong-in-al-ain

Here all article:

Fanbase for Chile’s Jorge Valdivia still very strong in Al Ain

CURITIBA // Apparently, Chilean jerseys sporting No 10 are doing a roaring trade back in the UAE. A quick jaunt around Al Ain and the red and white of the modest South American country with ambitious aspirations at this World Cup is said to pop out from coffee shops and shisha cafes.

The phenomenon is easily explained: Jorge Valdivia, Chile’s gifted playmaker, spent two seasons at the Garden City club starting in 2008. From there, the seeds were sown to a lifelong allegiance.

Click here to visit The National’s World Cup 2014 landing page

Valdivia’s style – expert close control, imagination and set-piece precision – carried significant substance, too. “El Mago” (The Magician) in his time at Al Ain, he helped conjure a President’s Cup crown, and an Etisalat Cup success, as well.

A league title proved elusive, if only because in his final season, injuries to instrumental colleagues Jose Sand and Emerson stunted Al Ain’s challenge. Valdivia returned to Palmeiras with his reputation enhanced, though. He certainly left his mark.

“He was a great player and I was very fortunate to have played with him for two years,” said Waleed Salem, the Al Ain goalkeeper. “I had a feeling of joy while watching him score in Chile’s 3-1 win over Australia in their Group B opener.”

On Friday against the Australians, Valdivia – who played in three of Chile’s four games at the 2010 tournament – had provided a typically fine finish in the match at the Arena Pantanal. It was his side’s second goal, the sort of strike familiar to those who trained alongside him at Al Ain.

“He was not only an outstanding player, but a team man,” Salem said. “He helped others to improve their game and earned the respect of his teammates on the pitch.”

Admired by Al Ain’s foreign contingent and the club’s Emiratis, Valdivia had a particular influence on Omar Abdulrahman. Many of the tricks and flicks now employed by the UAE’s most naturally gifted football took root while Valdivia was there.

Having arrived at Al Ain in 2008 as a 24-year-old, Valdivia was a rare commodity: a talented foreign player moving toward his prime and not out of it. He made the most of his period in the UAE, embracing both the culture and an emergent professional era in its football.

Liam Weeks, Al Ain’s performance analyst during much of Valdivia’s time there, is unequivocal in his praise.

“He is the best player to have played in the UAE, without doubt,” Weeks said. “He was technically accomplished; the players all looked up to him. The strikers were lucky to have him in the side, and I’d say he was involved in about 80 per cent of the team’s goals. He made things look easy.”

Weeks expects to see Valdivia back at Al Ain at some point, such is the connection between the diminutive schemer and his former club.

Given Valdivia’s affection for the 11-time UAE champions, a return visit would only seem natural.

Should he move to another team in the Arabian Gulf League, a clause exists in his current contract with Palmeiras mandating that Al Ain pocket a sizeable compensation. A transfer back there would arguably prove more lucrative, in footballing terms at least.

For now, Valdivia is focused solely on guiding Chile as deep into this month’s World Cup as possible.

On Wednesday, Jorge Sampaoli’s men seek to take another step toward the knock-out stages when they take on Spain, the defending champions. Smarting from last week’s humiliation at the hands of the Netherlands, they will be intent on banishing memories of the Dutch debacle. Just like against Australia, Valdivia will be integral to Chile’s chances.

Read more: Spain approach legacy crossroads ahead of clash with younger Chile

Under Sampaoli, his remit is clear: control and create, interchange with Alexis Sanchez and Eduardo Vargas in attack and lift this impressive Chile long into the finals.

Celebrated in his own country, Valdivia will find encouragement thousands of miles away from Rio de Janeiro’s Maracana, in those coffee shops and shisha cafes dotted around his old haunt.

“I am a fan of Spanish football and Spain, but whenever Chile plays in the World Cup, my support is for them because of Valdivia’s presence,” said Ahmed Saeed, an Al Ain supporter.

“After the World Cup, I hope he returns to Al Ain.”
 

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God of Beira Rio
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Discussion Starter #166 (Edited)
He has a great vision of the play and is beautiful the way to open the field, this is Valdivia....Omar Abdulrahman the new Jorge Valdivia? The time will tell us!

nR7JDAeBOrg
 

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Assistant Waterboy
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He has a great vision of the play and is beautiful the way to open the field, this is Valdivia....Omar Abdulrahman the new Jorge Valdivia? The time will tell us!

nR7JDAeBOrg
omar doesn't run as fast as valdivia, but he plays a lot quicker. i'd say his vision makes him a more effective player than valdivia, unless you have a freekick specialist on your team.
 

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God of Beira Rio
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Discussion Starter #169 (Edited)
omar doesn't run as fast as valdivia, but he plays a lot quicker. i'd say his vision makes him a more effective player than valdivia, unless you have a freekick specialist on your team.
Valdivia > Omar, but Valdivia has the best vision in 20 years.

Claudio Borghi champions with Argentina 86 said about this issue:
"Valdivia is a marvel to watch, after of Diego (Maradona) is the best I saw"

Omar learned to have vision of field thanks to education of Valdivia.
Omar looks at his reflection in Valdivia.
 

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God of Beira Rio
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Discussion Starter #170
Juan Roman Riquelme announced that he is retiring from football.
I leave here a newspaper article about Riquelme, the classical 10.



Excerpt from the article:

"In other years the medicampistas had another vision.
The ability to anticipate the plays and that motion and position in the field either first projected in the mind ... To think in the football as a encounter space and not as a battlefield where each player competes.
"

Do it is well translated?

Source of article.
http://www.lun.com/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?dt=2015-01-27&PaginaId=23&bodyid=0
 

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Classic #10 ? this is a tricky term, as "classic" means older days? or classic as "traditional"?

1- As "traditional" #10
some found in the following names (in style, in position and performance)
Pedernera, Hidegkuti, Didi, Mazolla, Rivelino, Gerson, Overath, Socrates, Laudrups, Hagi, Zidane, Bocinhi, Rui Costa, riquelme ...

2- "Classic" #10 as what people used to say it .. classic:
Moreno, Zizinho, Di Stefano, Pele, Puskas, Cruyff, Netzer, Rivera, Zico Platini Maradona Gullit Baggio Ronaldinho Kaka ...
 

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God of Beira Rio
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Discussion Starter #173 (Edited)
naYW-iSkBk4

Classic #10 ? this is a tricky term, as "classic" means older days? or classic as "traditional"?

1- As "traditional" #10
some found in the following names (in style, in position and performance)
Pedernera, Hidegkuti, Didi, Mazolla, Rivelino, Gerson, Overath, Socrates, Laudrups, Hagi, Zidane, Bocinhi, Rui Costa, riquelme ...

2- "Classic" #10 as what people used to say it .. classic:
Moreno, Zizinho, Di Stefano, Pele, Puskas, Cruyff, Netzer, Rivera, Zico Platini Maradona Gullit Baggio Ronaldinho Kaka ...
As "traditional" #10 but I speak only South american players as 10.
The classical 10 is a invention of South America.
Europa plays on other way, more tacticism, less talent and technique and respect for the player.
 

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Don't confuse 8s with 10s now…

8s:
Didi, Gerson, L. Suarez, Xavi, Cueto, Van Hanegem etc.

10s:
Maradona, Zico, Platini, Zidane, Charlton, Rivera, Gullit, Riveilno, etc.
 

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As "traditional" #10 but I speak only South american players as 10.
The classical 10 is a invention of South America.
Europa plays on other way, more tacticism, less talent and technique and respect for the player.
you are right ....

"classic #10" was from SA since Moreno, Pedernera to Di Stefano to Pele (50-60s) to Gerson, Cubillas, Rivelino (70s) to Valderama, Zico, Socrates, Bochini, Maradona of 80s ...

In the PAST (before 80s) European tactics did not emphasize a #10 role as much, as they see #10 is EITHER a STRIKER OR FW or AM.

=======================================

Even within SA culture, there were two types of #10:

1- Scoring #10: Moreno, Zizinho, Di Stefano Pele Rivelino, Zico , Socrates, Maradona ... to Rivaldo Ronaldinho Kaka or lately Messi Neymar

2- Boss MF #10: Pedernera, Didi, Gerson .. to Valderama, Bochini .. to Diego, Aimar Veron Riquelme Ganso ... (Valdivia)

=======================================

Equivalent to European players:

Type 1: Puskas, Mazolla, Netzer, Cruyff, G.Best, Platini, Blokhin, Gullit, Savicevic, Baggio Totti ... to ( Coutinho,Ribery, Robben Griezman arguably ?)

Type 2: Coluna, Overath, Hagi, Gaza, Rui Costa, Laudrup, Zidane .. to Xavi Pirlo Ozil Sneijder .. to Arguably Oscar, Pogba?
 

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I've probably said this elsewhere in this thread already, but only a simple mind or someone willfully pushing an agenda would break footballing schools into SA and European as two whitewashed blocks.

There's simply too much national variation even within the one continent for it to be of any real use.And even the most rigid of countries tactically like the English master race have often used creative midfielders to dictate play at club level and even international.Things are far more nuanced than someone like Hero would like to believe.

Or were at least, we've moved a lot towards tactical universality...but that does not exclude the South Americans.
 

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I've probably said this elsewhere in this thread already, but only a simple mind or someone willfully pushing an agenda would break footballing schools into SA and European as two whitewashed blocks.

There's simply too much national variation even within the one continent for it to be of any real use.And even the most rigid of countries tactically like the English master race have often used creative midfielders to dictate play at club level and even international.Things are far more nuanced than someone like Hero would like to believe.

Or were at least, we've moved a lot towards tactical universality...but that does not exclude the South Americans.
Well we do hear you .. but unfortunately that's the TRUTH, only 2 serious style represent Football: SA (more freedom more attack with individualists FW/Playmaker) and European (more tactical discipline, more team work )

... until African Football become clear better with their "mixed style' and Asian Football are more like "European style" thanls to their HIRING Coach/trainer from Europe.

================================
For English football, I have already discussed before , they NEVER interest in a "playmaker system" but TEAM WORK

i.e. Boby Charlton worn #9 (as CAM) while Sheringham, Lineker, Owen Rooney(all strikers) worn #10 shirt ... and ironically Gaza was the rightful Playmaker but settled with 19 (=1+9 ?) LOL
 

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God of Beira Rio
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Discussion Starter #178
Bonvallet (ex player of Chilean NT in WC 1982) about Jorge Valdivia

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He says very annoyingly:
"There is a problem, THERE IS A PROBLEM, we can not leave out to the best 10 in the world".

At that time the Europeans were crazy about Arturo Vidal in Juventus and did not want to understand that for the Chileans the best was Jorge Valdivia.
 

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At that time the Europeans were crazy about Arturo Vidal in Juventus and did not want to understand that for the Chileans the best was Jorge Valdivia.
Vidal is always in the Chilean starting lineup and Valdivia isn't. What does it suggest? Vidal is the one who wins games, not Valdivia. You can enjoy Valdivia's tricks with a ball, but without Vidal Chile would have won zilch. Vidal is (has been?) a top player or something very close to it, Valdivia isn't and has never been.
 
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