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Mourinho & Cassano!!
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Courtesy of Razman who spent a lot of time on this and won an argument against me on the value of Emre vs. Stankovic:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulsar36
You are going to go as far as say Emre is a better overall player than Stankovic? That is what I'm saying. The opposite that is. But if you wish to travel down that road then be my guest I will prove you wrong.

Of course I think Emre is a better overall player than Stankovic. I thought it was obvious by now

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulsar36
You can't make that judgement based on the moment. Davids is hardly seen, Stankovic is suffering from fitness, even though anyone would better than him b/c of that reason. And Emre hardly plays and when he does he hardly has an impact with the exception of the Coppa Italia game but I'm sure Stankovic's game against the team we played before Parma was not forgotten.

When I said at the moment, i meant in the present time, and not in the past. Anyways, it is clear that Davids is hardly seen anymore, but Emre is too, and he still puts better performances. Stankovic is suffering from fitness problems? He's had problems since November!!! Last I checked he was a healthy young strong man and not a 70 year-old hag! If he can get his fitness back in a couple of weeks, then we're better off with Di Biagio! Remember, he was on vacation throughout the whole Summer whereas players like Adriano and JZ have been playing non-stop since last season and still haven't suffered as big a fitness problem as Stankovic seems to. Wonder how long he's planning to keep it up. he's going to break the record of longest period of bad form a player has ever sustained it seems. Seriously man, do you even remember what was the last world-class performance Stankovic showed was? Because I certainly dont.

Anyways, fine, it would be really unfair to Emre to compare the current season. he has barely played 850 minutes (roughly 9-10 matches); less than half of what Stankovic's spent. So why dont we compare last season's performances as it would make more sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulsar36
I say this based on his performances last year as well. There is no reason why mancio would have benched Emre, a regular starter, this year if was a superstar that you talk about.

You are committing some serious mistakes here pal. His performances last year were almost as good, if not better than Stankovic's! Believe it or not, the inter.it ratings prove that. Emre, in a whole season in 03/04, got an average rating of 6.9. That is absolutely exceptional for a player who played as LITTLE as 1475 minutes (roughly 17 matches) in a whole season. That makes it only half of the matches in Serie A. This fact completely rubbishes your claims that he's been given enough chances last season. Moreover, he's made 6 appearances last season coming off of the bench and ended up being subbed out in 5 matches. Another fact that nullifies your claim of him being a regular starter. Half of the matches he played, he never completed the full 90 mins. Dont you think that for such stats, a 6.9 is really exceptional?

These stats are all directly from inter.it on this link: http://www.inter.it/aas/squadra/pla...en&STAG=2003/04

Now considering Stankovic's stats the second half of last season (Only as an Inter player), You'd be surprised how disappointing they were compared to Emre's. First of all, let me clear it up for you that Stankovic, in the half season he played at Inter, has been given more time and chances than Emre has during the whole season. Stankovic got 1241 minutes in just 6 months. That is almost 85% of what Emre played in a whole year. Stankovic average rating for those 6 months was 7.1, which is pretty impressive and more excetional than Emre's. But then again, you gotta consider the minutes Stankovic was given to play, the injuries Emre has suffered and other factors. Still, that rating is pretty impressive to maintain in 6 months. But its a known fact that over time, averages tend to decrease, and I'm sure if we had taken Stankovic's total average rating of the year, it would come to, if not less than, Emre's 6.9

However if you look at the trend of both players, you'd see that actually Stankovic is the inconsistent player and Emre is nowhere near inconsistent as you claim. In fact, he's been a solid consistent performer. Just take a look at the ratings and you'll notice how Emre's ratings do not fluctuate much, maintaining a solid 6.5 rating almost every match, while Stankovic on the other hand, is getting ratings of 8.5 one day, and the next he's a 5.5, and then back to 7.0 and again back to 4.0 in back to back matches and so forth.

They're all here: http://www.inter.it/aas/squadra/det...2003/04&R=1&T=1

Bottom line is, the ratings again prove me right and you wrong. Emre shows to be much more consistent than Stankovic has been last season. Now we all agree that Stankovic did not have any fitness problems last season, so its safe to say that he's the more inconsistent player, even though it is Emre who is supposed to be the terribly inconsistent one as you claim. Dont forget that he's been suffering lots of injuries.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulsar36
No. Stankovic is inconsistent but more of it is due to fitness issues and playing in the left wing. If Stankovic played CM he would lead the league in assists and possibly goals for a midfielder. AND YES YOU CAN QUOTE ME ON THAT. That's how strongly I believe. I saw what he did in 03/04 or 02/03 (roberto help me out?) for Lazio and I was amazed.

Stankovic is played out of position? Well Emre has always been played out of position too under Mancini. If Emre is given a chance to play in the middle alongside Cambiasso, or CZ, I'm sure he'll be a hero.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulsar36
I call Emre inconsistent because that is what he is. He had his chances this year. He played half good, half bad. Stankovic is suffering from fitness issues, he was an excellent player for us in the beginning. VDM is inconsistent. I agree. VDM I don't think is better than Emre tho I can't compare the two.

I wonder what you base your claims of him being inconsistent this year on? check out his ratings this season so far: http://www.inter.it/aas/squadra/det...2004/05&R=1&T=1

If its anything, Its solidly CONSISTENT. In the mere 820 minutes Emre has had to play this season, he got an average rating of 6.6, which is not bad at all! To prove to you how consistent the guy is, he's gone 13 consecutive matches with ratings between 6.3 and 7.5. That's consistency at its best for you.

Now go to this link: http://www.inter.it/aas/squadra/det...2004/05&R=1&T=1 and check out the traffic light jam that Stankovic's inconsistent ratings have created. In back to back matches, he goes from 7.5 to 5.9 to 7.8 to 6.3 to 5.6 to 4.7 to 6.7. That is INconsistency at its best. And the ironic thing is that he's played the full 90 mins in almost all of his matches, but still produces inconsistent performances, whereas Emre with the inconsistent playing time he gets, has been producing solid consistent performances.

Now who's the inconsistent player? You tell me please!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulsar36
Sometimes I wonder what you see during the games. Look, VDM had one passed ball which was his mistake. But he did send in several crosses that got headed out by EXCELLENT CB's in Nesta nad Maldini against a sluggish Vieri. That is the truth. Check it out. He did lose the ball another time. But its hard to make an impact when you come on for 10 minutes.

You say that Emre had an awful match. I think that both guys had the same amount of time on the ball, even though Emre came on much earlier than VDM. Emre did not get many balls because by that time Mancini was subbing out all the midfielders for attackers, and we virtually had no midfield. So Emre was not able to receive as much of the ball as he should have, since most of our plays were long balls from our defense towards our forwards. VDM got at least 3-4 plays as he got a lot of passes the second he came onto the pitch. He twice lost control over the ball, and all his crosses came from the middle of the park and were easily cleared by the Milan defense. Even I would be able to do that! What's the use of a winger if he's just going to send mediocre crosses around from the middle of the pitch without being able to dribble at least one defender to get into a better crossing position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulsar36
Also, maybe you want to check this out. I wrote it afterwards.



I don't overreact. I want perfection from everyone. Even if CZ had such a good game, I don't think its worth it when he makes stupid mistakes like that. You got to be smart in your box.

"It's life in the death in the box. The people who think straight are the heroes and the ones who falter by a second are the fallen."

- Sir Alex Ferguson, back in the day 90's

This is what I'm talking about. We Inter fans treat the players like they're some kind of perfect robots. Even after the great game CZ had you still blame him for that goal. Why? Because he was a centimeter late. This is really harsh. No matter what the players do, just one smill Humane slip-up, and thy're the worst beings in our dictionaries. This is very sad indeed. You also mentioned in a later post that Emre had a real hard time adapting as he came on in an opposition's corner kick. That's one of the worst times for any player to come on to the pitch. Corner and Free kicks need a lot of concentration and involvement into the match tempo, and Emre lacked both when he came in. I agree he made a fatal mistake, but then again, even if he ran the life out of his legs to put kaka offside, he would still be onside as you mentioned because of CZ. Hey I have an idea, why dont we blame Emre for not being able to control the ball and clear out of danger when he had the chance to? Why did he slip-up and mess it all up!?


If you still have any doubts about Emre's true value, I beg of you to check this link out: http://www.inter.it/aas/squadra/det...2002/03&R=1&T=1

This is his ratings from the 02/03 season. He got ratings as unbelievably high as 9.62, while the lowest he got was 6.5

Now you're saying all that Emre has done is one good season. Please think about it and tell me, how can anyone so overrated possibly have an average ratings of 8.0 throughout the whole year?!!?!?!? We're not basing his performance on that match against Lazio only, we're basing his performance during the whole season. How can an overrated player have such an exceptional season!? Its is simply not possible. Emre was given full 90 mins almost every match and he truly proved his worth.

The only downside to a player as talented as Emre is his injuries that have stopped his maginificent progress. He's too injury-prone and that doesn't help him a bit. But what he isn't is an inconsistent player. If anything, he;s far from it. He's actually one of the most consistent players we've got, as it is shown on the links in inter.it
 

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Emre is unlucky with injuries and I think he is more than good enough to be a starter, He is a consistent midfielder and the inconsistent tag he has is just another funny Inter myth. For the times he plays he puts enough quality in his minutes to say his effectiveness if he had the minutes of Stankovic could be more than the Serbian's IMO. But if Emre has less than half his minutes Stankovic will always seem like he is giving more(Emre 1363 mins, Stankovic 2816 mins)

This is what we are comparing him to right, Players? Not gods.
 

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Emre had proven to be a pretty good CM during the Cuper era. Who could forget the game against Lazio where he scored 2 goals from outside the box one of them which was a lob past the goalkeeper :thmbup: . But after Cuper left he was no where to be seen, played once in a while and always injured. Its not whether he is given enough playing times, its how long he can maintain his fitness before he gets injured again. And comparing him against Stankovic, I think physically having Stankovic on the field is much more secure attacking wise or defensively where he can win more 1 on 1 physical challenge. This is just my honest opinion..dont flame me :smileani:
 

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One of my favourite Inter player - EMRE !! :stuckup:

He's a player who deserves lot more than what he is getting now .... He's a central midfielder and does very well when played there. But at the same time can also do well in the left wing, if not very well.

Since both Emre and Stankovic are LCM kinda midfielder, the best way to play them is either a diamond midfield

------------ Stankovic ----------
--- B.Emre ------------ Veron ---
---------- Cambi/C.Zane --------

OR
simply play Emre in the LM role and let Stanko and Emre rotate their positions during the course of the game.

Emre -- Stankovic -- Cam/C.Zan -- Veron

But during the course of the game, the two players will keep on rotating their positions according to the situation:

Emre <--> Stankovic -- Cam/C.Zan -- Veron

But !! we are playing with 2 DM's at the moment. Which means that we are not utilizing the potential of two quality players:

Emre - By not playing him, instead opting for an extra DM.
Stankovic - Playing him out of position, no wonder he's not doing well.

What's wrong with Mancini ?? It was the same Stankovic who did well in Lazio when he played in LCM role with a DM ?? Yeah, I do understand that we have Veron now, what about opting for a diamond midfield then ??

EDIT - It would be wrong to say that Emre is an inconsistent player.

I say it again, 1 DM is enough for a team like us, who haven't got midfielders like NEDVED who can handle the offensive job all by himself (mostly) ;)

:thumbsup:
 

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Pravesh, Stankovic can't play as a trequartista. He's not skilled enough for the job of playing close to the box, where you need to be almost a complete player. There he would appear less in the game and try one-touch impossible passes as soon as he got the ball. His best position is CM, not AM. It may not look like, but it is very, very different playing in these positions.

For now he should be kept on the bench. Kily is more suited to the left-midfielder role, and Veron is a better player if Mancini drops the two DMs tactics.
 

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Pulsar36 said:
Courtesy of Razman who spent a lot of time on this and won an argument against me on the value of Emre vs. Stankovic:
I was just thinking about opening a similar thread, but you beat me to it. :) Thanks for recognizing the time I spent going through this. I really think Emre is a great player, but he's still nowhere close to the Zidanes and Ronaldinhos. He can easily be a regular starter in any team in the world. The only downside to this player is his injury tolerance and fitness problems. The Italian game is ultra-defensive and it is only logical a player with great dribbling skills like Emre would often be hacked down and injured. If Emre was to play in La Liga, I'm sure he would suffer less injuries. I just hope Mancini gives the guy a chance. He's already proven himself over a course of a whole season, so I dont know why Mancini insists on relegating him to the bench. Emre's a type of player that is best utilized as a starter. Great dribblers need maximum amount of time to do their work because matches go through different stages. There is always this stage in a match in which dribbling becomes the best weapon to score a goal, and these stages dont have a certain time. They pop out of nowhere, and it is upto the dribblers to find their way to goal. Just like what happened with Emre's 2 goals against Lazio back in 02/03. There were simply two moments in the game where dribbling and solo work was the best option, and Emre took his chance and scored on both occasions. That was not the only time Emre's solo efforts came into use, as he was owning midfields throughout the whole season. That was simply his peak performance.

The great thing about Emre is that he also has great vision and teamwork abilities. He does the solo work when he has to and passes the ball to a better positioned player at the right time. He doesn't overdo it. The difference between him and players like Denilson is that he knows his limits and works accordingly. He has a great mentality that allows him to do that.

Unfortunately, he has often been mixed up in bad situation this season. Like the game against Milan and Cagliari. He is not the best tactically aware defensive player, and the fact that he's been played out of position on the wings does not help him. EMRE MUST PLAY IN THE CENTER TO PRODUCE THE BEST RESULTS. His crosses are not his best quality, and so he shouldn't be playing on the wings. His performances under Cuper and in the Coppa matches against Atalanta, where he played in the center, proves my point.

Stankovic has a great shot, decent passing abilities and a good physical aspect to his game, but Emre is the overall better player in my opinion. I'm sure Mancini wouldn't regret it if he gave Emre a chance in the center of the field.
 

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A couple of things.. CZ can hardly be blamed for the goal when he was clearly meant to guard the near post which he did. The problem was that our defenders weren't marking the Milan players in our box at all. So even though he may have been close to the action, that was only because others had failed to be closer, as they were meant to be. And CZ wasn't nearly close enough to make a tackle. The criticism isn't harsh - it's unfair. Clearly, the responsibility should fall on the defenders. And Emre shouldn't be blamed for that goal either for similar reasons.

As for Emre, he's a fantastic player. He's just not been as impressive as he was a couple of seasons ago because of injuries.
 

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Razman said:
The great thing about Emre is that he also has great vision and teamwork abilities. He does the solo work when he has to and passes the ball to a better positioned player at the right time. He doesn't overdo it. The difference between him and players like Denilson is that he knows his limits and works accordingly. He has a great mentality that allows him to do that.
Very well said. And as you also said, he produces his best results in the centre (offensively and defensively). But about his solo work, don't you find that since last season he's limited this aspect a bit too much? Now he hardly goes on those great runs we were accustomed to. I'm not sure why he doesn't when he definitely can. This is very similar to Recoba, who used to burn players on the run regularly. But for about a season now, he hardly tries to go on such runs. I'd really like to see Emre try those runs more often.
 

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Firdaus said:
Very well said. And as you also said, he produces his best results in the centre (offensively and defensively). But about his solo work, don't you find that since last season he's limited this aspect a bit too much? Now he hardly goes on those great runs we were accustomed to. I'm not sure why he doesn't when he definitely can. This is very similar to Recoba, who used to burn players on the run regularly. But for about a season now, he hardly tries to go on such runs. I'd really like to see Emre try those runs more often.
Good point. If we think about it, there's a common aspect to both Emre's and Recoba's limiting down of their dribbling. That is they're both low on confidence due to being relegated so much to the bench.

Out of all skills of football, the skill of dribbling is very delicate. It takes a lot of mental strength to be a good dribbler, because there's always the fear of failure and what that results to, especially in front of millions of people watching all over the world. There's always the fear of fans dissing you, coaches losing their faith in you, teammates being disappointed in you, because you opted for the solo work instead of passing to another player. That's why you see players who dribble past a whole team one season, and the next they can't dribble past a turtle.

I play football regularly, and got some decent dribbling abilities. When you play, faith from your teammates and coach is the most important thing mentally. When you have their faith, you can pull things you never knew you could. But if you lack that faith, you will never be able to show your true potential. I suffered from this and I know exactly how it feels to have low confidence.

Emre has suffered from a lot of injuries these couple of seasons, and has warmed the bench a lot. Then when he came back, he wasn't as impressive as he used to be, and that is the time coaches lost all confidence in him. I wouldn't blame Zac or Mancini too much tho, because they barely knew Emre back in his good days with Cuper. And at a club like Inter, immediate results are very important. That's why Emre never got the faith and confidence he deserves once injuries started haunting him.

I'm pretty sure with the faith Mancini has showed Vieri and Stankovic, Emre would now be even better than his 02/03 performance. It is rare to find dribblers who are not geniuses (Denilson is the only case I know). And geniuses are the most sensitive people. A little bit of faith means a lot to them.

PS-I'm not saying Emre is a genius of football, but he sure has a great vision. He needs his fair share of faith from our coaches.
 

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Roberto Gallo said:
Pravesh, Stankovic can't play as a trequartista. He's not skilled enough for the job of playing close to the box, where you need to be almost a complete player. There he would appear less in the game and try one-touch impossible passes as soon as he got the ball. His best position is CM, not AM. It may not look like, but it is very, very different playing in these positions.

For now he should be kept on the bench. Kily is more suited to the left-midfielder role, and Veron is a better player if Mancini drops the two DMs tactics.
Yeah, you are rite saying that Stankovic is not a playmaker. But I am also not eager for him to play as a playmaker. In that diamond midfield, he would be playing as a central midfielder who would be working in the midfield more and not act as a playmaker by keeping the ball with him for long time and look around for other players. That would be handled by Veron.

I think that, tht's the best solution we have with those 3 midfielders we have and it's the only way to play all of them. Unless we play a flat midfield, which I also discussed about.

-----Stankovic------
Emre----------Veron
-----Cambiasso-----

Stankovic won't play upfront, but very close to the other midfielders. All the three will hbe helping each others out and they are good in it - Defence/Offence - ALL. They will also keep on rotating their positions as well, according to the need, which they can do as well.

HELP EACH OTHER OUT .... I think it can work. It was kinda similar midfield which played against Atalanta (serie game which we won 1-0) & they totally dominated the game. Atalanta's a small team, but more they play together more they will gel together and be better.

That's my dream midfield actually. :thmbup:

:D
 

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Razman said:
Good point. If we think about it, there's a common aspect to both Emre's and Recoba's limiting down of their dribbling. That is they're both low on confidence due to being relegated so much to the bench.

Out of all skills of football, the skill of dribbling is very delicate. It takes a lot of mental strength to be a good dribbler, because there's always the fear of failure and what that results to, especially in front of millions of people watching all over the world. There's always the fear of fans dissing you, coaches losing their faith in you, teammates being disappointed in you, because you opted for the solo work instead of passing to another player. That's why you see players who dribble past a whole team one season, and the next they can't dribble past a turtle.

I play football regularly, and got some decent dribbling abilities. When you play, faith from your teammates and coach is the most important thing mentally. When you have their faith, you can pull things you never knew you could. But if you lack that faith, you will never be able to show your true potential. I suffered from this and I know exactly how it feels to have low confidence.

Emre has suffered from a lot of injuries these couple of seasons, and has warmed the bench a lot. Then when he came back, he wasn't as impressive as he used to be, and that is the time coaches lost all confidence in him. I wouldn't blame Zac or Mancini too much tho, because they barely knew Emre back in his good days with Cuper. And at a club like Inter, immediate results are very important. That's why Emre never got the faith and confidence he deserves once injuries started haunting him.

I'm pretty sure with the faith Mancini has showed Vieri and Stankovic, Emre would now be even better than his 02/03 performance. It is rare to find dribblers who are not geniuses (Denilson is the only case I know). And geniuses are the most sensitive people. A little bit of faith means a lot to them.

PS-I'm not saying Emre is a genius of football, but he sure has a great vision. He needs his fair share of faith from our coaches.

Agreed. I play football as well. My best position is Defensive Midfielder. :) But you knew that already! :D I like to go on the dribble as well but without overdoing it, obviously. So of course I understand the confidence aspect. And you're right in that this definitely plays its part.

But if you think about it, these are players who play at a different level and know what they can do and therefore, they shouldn't be laying off the dribble for that long. The confidence level required, IMO, is different from say, shooting when your confidence in front of goal is down. Added to this is the fact that Recoba (who's been a sub for us for so long) still used to go on these runs when he came on. He suddenly stopped and so did Emre. They both had injuries though so the confidence aspect in relation to that seems to be a factor. I'm just surprised that Emre, in particular, and being the player that he is as well, hasn't tried it on in such a long time.

At the start of the 03/04 season, you might have noticed that Emre was regarded much more as a main player than he is now. He featured but he looked very tired and a different player at the start of that season. It was a dramatic change when you think about the Emre from the season before. So it's not so much the lack of confidence from the coach or team than the lack of confidence in himself after injuries or whatever. The thing is, he seems to have recovered now and even if he's not going to try to beat his man almost every time he gets the ball, surely he should have tried it more often than he does.

It might conceivably have something to do with the way the team plays. The main dribblers are guys like Adriano, Stankovic (who loves to go for it) and Martins. Added to this, Vieri calls for the ball to his feet even when he's in midfield. Although he's always done this, now he's in a much better position to receive it than under say, Cuper, since we actually have proper tactics and play properly now.

One other point: As we've said, lack of confidence is definitely a factor. Now Adriano seems to lack some confidence because of his form. And for him, I've hoped in recent times that would lead him to try and hold the ball a bit more instead of lose it on the overdribble or just win us throw-ins instead! :tongue:
 

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Well said, Firdaus. It could also have to do with Mancini's orders perhaps. Notice how Emre was dribbling almost everyone including his own teammates against Atalanta in the more relaxed Coppa matches, whereas in the more serious league matches, he tends to cut down on them. Could be Mancini's orders to the boys to be more careful and pass the ball around more. After all, that is his favorite tactic. Guys like Adriano, Stankovic, and even Veron seem to have more confidence and faith from the coach. Anyway I think Emre has been given way too little time for us to be judging his performance this season. With more time, I think he would have no problem pulling some magic.
 

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Yep. I thought it might have something to do with Mancini's orders as well. And as for your last sentence, I know you're right.
 

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Emre is great...how isnt an integral part of inters team after his era with cuper is beyond me.

BUT, inter have many good midfielders at the club so its not easy trying to field them all.

I think Emre should be sold...maybe a black and white jersey and the city of turin is possible??? :smileani: i'd love to have emre partnering emerson at juve.
 

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CUG said:
Emre is great...how isnt an integral part of inters team after his era with cuper is beyond me.

BUT, inter have many good midfielders at the club so its not easy trying to field them all.

I think Emre should be sold...maybe a black and white jersey and the city of turin is possible??? :smileani: i'd love to have emre partnering emerson at juve.
I think Inter has already learnt some kinda lesson after selling Cannavaro to Juventus. :wallbang:

Yeah, having lots of midfielders doesn't help Mancini as well, but too much favouring is also not good.

Cambiasso -- Emre would be great... :thmbup:
 

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Emre out with the flu tomorrow, im guessing he´s so pissed at mancini that he would rather stay at home
 

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Damn. It seems all the less fortunate players (Recoba, Emre) are always out with some kind of injury or disease. :confused:
 

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Emre must be preparing to leave milano, actually to leave italia. I also hope he does. Turning back to Turkey to wear the Fenerbahçe shirt, Or going to Premiership to show Mancini how valuable he is...

He has the skill to be the greatest, his only need is to give him the chance and show him that you trust him..
 
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