[Ze da Fiel]

Do we need to bering all these European based players to play for our country?
I don't think so..leave Antonio carlos, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Aldair (good that he is gonne), conceicao , Rivaldo etc..etc.. in Europe, we don't need tehm.
Only one or 2 should come from the old continent.....the rest should all be based in brazil,,were most teams don't know about them, and play with much more guts and pride than these other guys...and would play much better than they do.
WHy call thse player when they are so crap?

 

[TAZZ]

Because of teh SOuth American Cancer called totall disorganization.

Europeans teach you guys discipline. You guys have the raw talent and teh Europeans teach you to show discipline. Clowns like Ronaldinho Gaucho still wouldn't cut it in Europe.

If you can't cut it in Europe you cannot get past the likes of Cordoba Ayala and Montero.

No matter what you delude yourself into thinking Za.....European football is at a much higher standard than that joke of a competition in Brazil. Playing at European standards gives players that higher edge.

There is no way you can tell me that playing in Brazil for a defender is the same thing as playing in Italy as a defender.

Defending in Italy you have to defend against the best Brazilians Argies Uraguayans Africans plus the same old Europeans again. Same thing as SPain and France England and Germany.

Serie A and other european league are what has made most of your players as good as they are.

But you don't believe that do you?

 

[Ze da Fiel]

No I dont' tazz,
when the players play in Brazil they play according to our methods of training with specialist that know every single trick in tactics and motivation etc...etc...and make players and build them to be FREE in hte pitch, and not CHAINED to tactical prisons employed by european managers (Ex: Italy's boring Catenaccio, or a German footballing school).
ABout discipline, who cares about taht, the best players are normally the ones that have no discipline, and that's why they are so good, because they fear NOTHING!
Ex: Edmundo, Romario..and even Maradona etc..etc...etc..

 

[Guest]

yeah that is why european clubs want brazilian guys. dont they.
iTAZZ
before saying anything think.
most of the players in brazil can leave defenders standing with their dribbling skills.
and goalkeepers shocked with their accuracy on the free kick.
and telling ronaldinho gaucho a clown.
you are so biased.
i think the only spectacular player coming out of italy is cassano.
but in south america there are so many.
ex.ronaldinho,saviola,aimar,alex,franca.
they are wanted by the biggest clubs in europe.
P.Sarma already bought alex.

 

[Guest]

and on ronaldinho did you see the goal in copa america scored by him it left everybody with their mouths open.

we will show europe in the olympic u-23's.

 

[doug]

Ze da Fiel:

Your list of the guys "who fear nothing": Where did they hone their fearless approach and become world famous?

In Serie A or the Spanish Liga. Brasil should be proud of these guys who go to the east and show the world what the samba style is all about.

 

[falcao]

tazz, you don't know what you're talking about. when the south americans go to europe, they get a little better right away with the discipline. but then they get worse and worse and worse. they lose all their passion for playing, and they lose all their skills. they become boring clones of the europeans.

playing in italy, germany, england, etc., removes the brazilian skills and replaces it with european rules and regulations. well, the football pitch is not the place for rules and regulations; it's the place for passion, style, flair, dribbles, guts and other sexy play.

ze da fiel, i'm ready to leave all the european brazilians at home. if brazil played with 11 brazilians, nobody in the world could handle them. they would play with all the sexiness of 1970 and 1982. the other teams would not know what to do. they would be thinking about all sorts of tactics from the coach while brazil would be creating MAGIC on the field, running around them, dribbling through their legs.

 

[EclipsE]

Hah falcao, you're a dreamer..

If only Luxemborgo was a lunatic like you are, I think Brazil would dominate the world for years to come.


Too bad

 

[TAZZ]

You guys are hilarious!!!!!!!

Brazilian flair vs. European discipline.
Brazil..................Norway

Brazil...................France

Brazil...................Argentina on Wednesday.

Italy Cattenacio boring? FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

I have said this many times and i will say it again. You may think it is boring but that is your opinion. I for one hat to see 5-3 score lines unless the match is extremely high quality and the goals couldn't be stopped. I hat to see indiscipline in defence. I for one think the way Brazilians play is indeed boring and i would prefer to see Italy play Holland and hold out fo ra whole game with the world 2 best defenders in Canavarro and Nesta holding down the fort.

Ronaldinho Gauccho is aindeed a clown if you guys think he can take on Thuram or Laraunt Blanc and come out on top.

Falcao.....i know you don't believe what you just said.

As for Brazilians the beat every team that faces them without fear. Face Brazil without fear and there is no need to worry.

Brasilians go to Europe and become much much better players. Marcelinho didn't make it in Europe but that doesn't make him a bad player. It makes him a player not suited to European football. he is indeed one of the best players i have seen in my short life. He proves that you can indeed be world class and play in Brasil. But if he added discipline to his game he would be much much better i am sure.

And it is typicaly Brasilian to glamourize indiscipline isn't it? If you honestly think that ROmario would be as great as his is now without his times in Europe you are deluding yourself. The Brasilian league? How football should be played?

Is that why Germany has won 3 W.C.'s and 3 European cups........sure they suck now but they used to be the masters of discipline. I remember a few thumpings of Brasil in their hay day.

Italy has won 3 W.C.'s and 1 Euro.....its all about discipline for the Europeans.

The Brasilians and Argies and Uruguayans have far superior technique but the Europeans make up for that with discipline. And if you see discipline as boring Za that is your perspective.....i see careless play leting in 4 goals while scoring 4 as boring if the goals are down to defencive blunders rather than quality of play. That is boring as hell.

 

[IL TORO]

This is an interesting topic. I'm not too familiar with the current Brazillian team and Brazil-based players but I know the Europe-based players quite well and they all play to a good standard for their club, but I haven't been following the Brazilian team lately but I've heard Rivaldo, cafu and others are playing pretty poor. Well the way you guys feel about Rivaldo is the same way I feel about Del Piero, they are both supposedly 'great' but for the national team they don't do much(this is alot more noticeable in DP's case). The difference is that Rivaldo was good while playing for Brazil at France98 but Del Piero has never done sh!t for us.Fortunately we have several replacements for DP, and I'm sure Brazil have several for Rivaldo but I ain't too familiar with them.
To the guy who said that Casanno is Italy's only emerging talent: Casanno is definitely one of them, but there are many more. Ventola, Baronio, Pirlo, Gattuso, Ambrosini, Zambrotta, Coco to name a few.

 

[TAZZ]

Yo TORO i wouldn't put Zambrotta in that catgory he has already taken his game to the international level and when Figo starts to deteriorate in two or so years he will be the best European right side with added defencive capabilities......DISCIPLINE!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Ze da Fiel]

Doug,
Emdmundo din't play half of what he has played in italy, basically of so mushc homesickeness.
How can romario become a world class player playing only 1 year and a half in spain?
Rivaldo played better in his times for Palmeiras (see some videos if you can of Palmeiras 96).
Giovanni was much, much , uch better when he played in Santos, and was far from the burocratic player he is today, being transformed by rational and mechanical managers such as Van Gaal, and a certain old fashioned Bobby Robson.
COnceicao was much better than he is today, so was Ze Elias, a player who the italians and germans had the capability of detroying him. This is all of this generation.
Of past generations, I don;tthink Zico, Socrates, Falcao, Toninho Cerezo, Oscar, Careca, Rivelino, Gerson, Pele, Carlos Alberto, Djalma Sanots, Nilton Santos, Garricnha etc...etc...etc..e.tc...etc....etc... made their world fame in EUROPE but in BRASIL
Tazz, why do you only mention our defeats...why don't you mention our hundreds of vicotires of European discipline.....certinly the count would be in favor of us then of the rationality and discipline!
Why every brazilian that comes back from europe comes back bad? Ex: Branco, Casagrande, Socrates, Arilson, Alemao, Valdo etc..etc..etc...... they were much beter players when they WENT then when they came back!
Tazz. I must admit I enjoyed catenaccio on the final agaisnt France and in the semi final, but apart from that the other games i simply fell a sleep.
You must be one hell of a BORING F2ucker! (only joking tazz)
FALCAO, YOUR POST IS SIMPLY EXTRAORDINARY!

 

[Guest]

iTAZZ you are talking about germany and italy winning world cups.
ahy do you forget that brazil holds the record for winning the world cups 4.
they have won countless copa americas(actually i dont know how many)

 

[falcao]

You Europeans cannot be serious about this nonsense! Why would you want to see, for example, Italy 1-Germany 0 when you could see Brazil 4-Mexico 0 or Brazil 4-Argentina 2?

Sure, some 1-0 games are very, very exciting. But most of them are BORING like all hell. The whole Italian league is boring. Same thing for Germany, England, Scotland. A real bunch of crap. In Europe, only Spain plays some sexy football. (Must be the Latin blood.)

TAZZ, that is not DISCIPLINE the europeans are putting in the game. it is the KISS OF DEATH!

ze da fiel is right. most of the brazilians who go to europe end up worse players. only a few exceptional stars are able to keep playing like brazilians, like the mighty FALCAO! but most of them lose a great part of their game, the creativity.

in europe, it's like they play with chains on their legs! they are afraid to express themselves. look at what happened to ronaldo: when he first went to europe, he killed the dutch league. he moved to spain and killed the liga with some spectacular goals that people are still talking about. but after a couple of years in italy, look at him now: fewer goals, more injuries, less space, less creativity, more pressure, more headaches, even more injuries, almost no goals. the more time he spends in italy, the worse it gets for him and for us.

every night in my dreams, ronaldo is still with barcelona!

TAZZ and all you other european fools: IN BRAZIL, THE PLAYERS PLAY. IN EUROPE, THE PLAYERS WORK. that is the difference. i would much rather see an entertaining south american game than 11 italian accountants trying to calculate their next tactical move to win 1-0.

 

[Ze da Fiel]

Falcao,
simply clynical........I just wonder what wil the Italian managers do with a player like Felipe????
Probably put him as a center forward...in brazil he is a left back or a defensive midfielder.
Anyway Junior arived in italy and in one month he was playing in midfield, while in Flmanego he played all his life as a left back!

 

[IL TORO]

Falcao, liking the Brazilian league over the serie a is your opinion. Saying Serie a is boring is your opinion. But the sad truth for you is that the serie a is the most prestigious and one of the most popular leagues in the world(if not the most popular). Ofcourse the Brazilian league is still very good too, but it is nowhere near as organised and prestigious as the serie a.

 

[RedEagle]

First off this is a very interesting topic, and one that I'm familiar with.

Before I begin, I just like to point out that the sexiest football as of today is played in Europe. Portugal is the sexiest along with France and Holland. Italy is boring but as always deadly effective. Spain is a choke. In South America only Argentina at this time is at this level.

The best Brazillian player is struggling for form...has been for awhile and his name is Rivaldo. If his form comes back Brazil will be back to the same level as the Argentines and the others. Also I think the game is very political in Brazil and thus the inconsistencies just not this year but since 98.

And of key importance regarding to Brazil...unless you get a Romario or a Ronaldo of a few years ago, you have no one up front to score goals at this time. I don't count Edmundo because he is not a player...he is a talented destructive freak of nature. So far none of those new young guys have done anything up front...let's face this obvious fact. They are not the type of players capable of breaking a defense like a Romario or a Ronaldo.

Only Rivaldo has the potential to do this in your current team...but he is struggling.

Also, just like England Brazilians tend to over rate themselves. Ze remember a while back I said that Brazil was overrated and it's bearing fruit. However, I also want to say that Brazil and South America in general produces 9 great footballers for every 2 European. It's no comparison talent wise. Brazil stopped playing their beautiful game a while back...it's not a recent thing. If they get back
to it then they can have a say in 2002 if not then it will be another 90!

 

[TAZZ]

haha ha.....

So hahahaha I'm a what? A boring MUTHPHUCKA?

Falcao: to TAZZ and the other European fools

C'mon guys.......hahaha its nottime for name calling....that's just being Brasilian....ooooooops....i means Childish hahahaha

Anyway as i have said before I don't rate Brasil as anything but being the team with teh greatest players historically. No team can match Brasil for talent history wise.

Guys like Romario would find it hard to break into Brasil's all time great team with guys like Garrincha Zico Ronaldo and some guy called Pele hogging the forward slots....

Romario would make it onto almost every other teams all time great team without a challenge.

Brasil historically have the greatest players.

And the reason they have beaten the crap out of European discipline and even my sweet Italy in the past is because the level of discipline that exists now didn't exist then.


This is the most hilarious part of this argument you guys are actually makingmy point for me
All you guys saying that Brasilians are not making it abroad recently just goes to reinforce my point. I mean if they cannot make it in Europe while this generation teh Argies are the hottest products in Europe what is that saying? THE ARGIES ARE MAKING IT!!!!!!! the Brasilians are not. Europeans are disciplined and teh Argies are too.......so........what exactly is your point about Brasilians coming back home broken men? Its not my fault you guys are punks and cannot face up to European fotball. Look at Mr. Discipline himself Javier Zanetti. He has made it. Look at Redondo? Look at Batigol......all of these guys have made it to captain of their squads at some time or other.

Sorry guys but your point is a non-point.

If Brasilians lack the mental toughness it is because they have never been taught that football is no longer a game.....its about winning and winning only. Going out on the field with a smile on your face is for @RSES. Just ask Mr Smiles himself Cafu the CLown.

Brasil have the best players but they lack the mental toughness teh Argies have and they cannot handle European discipline.

And if there are two teams in South America that have alwaysplayed with teh discipline ofteh Europeans it is the Argie and the uruguayans AND THEY HAVE THE RECORD FOR COPA AMERICA's WON!!!!!!! and it is about 17

Plus teh COpa America is played every 2 years and there is no qualifying for the tournament. it cannot compare to the kind of phases the Europeans have to go through to play in any finals tournament.

C'mon guys when it comes to what is boring or not it all depends on perspective. Cattenaccio is much better for me than watching Argentina get killed 4-2 be Brasil for obvious reasons

Seriously though Argentina Brasil is quality. I am talking about comparing Italy France 2-1 to probably Brasil 3 Ecuador 2 a game loaded with defencive blunders all round and total indiscipline by the Brasilian rear guard.

its simply a matter of opinion if you like to see loads of goals sure go ahead but for me its about quality more than goals.

Falcao hahaha i know you don't mean what you said about Europe.....hahaha.....i know you love European football.....don't deny it....YOU LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!

FORZA Ze De Fiel and the great FALCAO!!!!!!!!!!

if you guys were to get Native American Indian names you guys would be named "Many-Tears-48hours-From-Today" hahaah

ARGENTINA ARGENTINA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Edited by ilTAZZ on 24-07-2000 at 23:38]

 

[Glen]

This discussion commands a comment!

Ze; you and I have quarrelled on this one for an eternity .
I'll have to be on Tazz side (on most accounts) for this one.

But let me start by Ze and Falcao's (hilarious) remark, that Brazil would be better without the "European's"...
I mean... COME ON!
The European sides are the richest- that makes it possible for them to buy all the best South American players. Brazil and Argentina + the other South American sides are producing raw talents in abundance and therefore you still have very competitive leagues, but the jewels will go to Europe at some point. As the best players will make out the best team a number of "Europeans" is absolutely necessary.
Therefore Brazil's only problem is bad management, lack of team stability and bad attitude which- incidentally- is a result of point number one.
As has been said ealier Brazil tends to overestimate their own skill as well, and in a period when the team is looking far from flawless, this loss against Paraguay was almost logical.
Brazil can bounce back, but don't give me "We're the best in the world" right now. Concerning raw talent you may still be, but that's not going to win you anything.
One thing that makes the Argies tick (and France for that matter) is that they have a number of players who play consistently well in very important games at a high level in Europe. Every point/game is important and they make few mistakes. If You look at their sides they have more players with Europes most succesfull/consistent teams (trophee wise) than Brazil and more importantly- their players are all key players with their sides whereas the Brazilains provide the sparkles technically, but aren't the back bones (except from Emerson at Leverkusen which is still not a BIG side) of their respective sides.
Players like Veron, Batistuta, Lopez, Crespo, Zanetti, Simeone (imagine if Redondo wanted to play) are all mega stars, but they all have a work ethic as well. I don't see that in Brazil and when they encounter a determined opposition and it doesn't quite go their way I don't think you're that good (for the moment).
You're obviously still one of the very best teams around, but it's not BRAZIL if you know what I mean. Don't tell me the U-23 would alter that and don't tell me Rivaldo isn't a given in this team. What you need is a reliable central defence and complete central midfielders who have played in commanding roles in Europe who can both play and work.
I expect Emerson to be a star in the WC 2002, because he's tremendously skilled and works like a beast as well. Going to Roma (with ALOT of pressure to win on him every week- not only with Brazil) will only benefit him and Brazil.
If Edmilson will play with Arsenal this season I expect him to be better DEFENSIVELY/TACHTICALLY in no time. Wenger and the old guys will teach him for sure. Attacking talent will always be there with Brazil, but if the "selecao" (?) is always changed it will never look like a coherent attack.

I haven't been impressed by any Brazilian team in WC's since 1986- honestly I mean that. The game against France in '86was fantastic and Zico-Sokrates deserved better. 1990- hard to imagine a less fortunate exit than Caniggia's goal off Argentina's only chance, but it still wasn't a VERY good side. After that you all know how you've been playing at WC's- even if you managed to win in '94 it wasn't a side to remember was it ?.

Brazil is the biggest football power ever and will propably remain so, but right now you're only one among a crowd of teams chasing France and Argentina. Period .

Ciao.

 

[Ze da Fiel]

Tazz, glen and red ealge.
YOU guys have seen that LAST MONTH.. i admited that we were not the best anymore CURRENTLY ...but that is currently, as we werenot the best in 90-91 or even 93!
We have the talent and the manager to change things around. I honelty (and 99% of the brazilians) don';t know were Luxemburgo left his knowledge....he only brought his natural arrogance to the national team.
In the pre olympic qualifier in february, the team (differnt players) were doing the same thing, playing crap football, but soon as they needed to do something they put 9x0 on colombia who were the top side of the tournament until then.....and got a couple of good players coming up. then after taht was trucidate Argentina (something that MASTER CARD CANNOT BUY!) and finish off the always violent uruguyans..and give a by to the sympathic Chileans
This team will be the same thing, it wil be a matter of time. The WC is only in 2 years time....and in the last time we were in qualifiying the same story repeated itslef..Brazil are this, we are not great anymore etc..etc.. and we won the WC, only sweating ourselves twice (Holland and Italy).
About the league, I'm not discussing the league, I'm talking about player quality. of course Europe has a beter organized league..but I prefer much more brazilian club football than the rather obvious European football, in which managers hold their players to chains, not letting them develop any kind of ability.
Also, the topic I made was mainly to ask ourselves if we need to bring and Emerson, a Ze Roberto, a Evanilson, an elber, an Amoroso from euroep when we got better players back home? A lot of people in brazil have the answer..and the is NO

look at this team:
dida

cafu (euro) edmilson (cacapa) roque Jr (Fabio Luciano) Athirson

vagner (amaral) Vampeta (felipe)

Marcelinho (juninho) Ricaridnho (Perdinho or Alex)

Edmundo (Edilson) Romario (ronaldinho gaucho)

do we need European players....the answer is NO...only the odd one or 2.
If they play in so and so league..i don't care, what matter is if he is good or not, not if his agent has contacts or not!