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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Guys,

Would like to have a thoughtful and constructive discussion on the reason we have most likely failed to retain our Liga title.

Mathematically we are still in, though we know its 95% over. We should try to make sure we finish second and secure the CL spot incase we aren't able to win the CL this year.

I am not in the mood to discuss now because ill end up cursing Del B and alot of the players, i need to cool down first! :frustrat:

I hope fans of other teams are objective as well and not just limit their discussion to cheap shots.

a very frustrated Lestat
 

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The Bull$hit cennetary crap put tremendous pressure on the team players and they just failed to cope with it. blame it on Florentino, the media or the fans but i think that was the main reason leading to this situation. Our players thought that this season will be just a walk in the park just because this team is regarded as the best in the game, our players egos triumphed over their game and thats discusting to say the least. Our away form has been miserable, i dont remember the last time we had such a record. Fatigue also played a vital role, players like Salgado, RC, Makelele, Raul have been playing for months without breaks no wonder why Raul is having such a low scoring season although his overall playing has been superb. Anyway, we have the CL left.
 

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Well mo,

We have an unbalanced squad, we have too many players in one position and not enough in others. It's so bad we field midfield players as strikers (guti) or defenders (Helguera) whenever we get an injury.

Our team also doesn't seem to be able to play direct and simple when the opposing team presses us and doesn't allow us to get into stride.

And finally there's a lack of fighting spirit in all but the biggest games.
 

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Go for 400, Raúl!
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If you realize, these last years the attention has been focused :glasses: in some tournaments every year. Two years ago, since the league was lost so soon, the team left it aside to center their efforts on the CL.
Last year, directives, technical staff and players said from the beggining that it was high time to win the league after 4 years -and they did quite brilliantly.
This year, although we've had the illusion of winning the treble, it is clear that the Cup was extremely important because of the final being at home the day of our 100th anniversary. And we reached the final, although we lost :wallbang: . Besides, the team has appeared much more at will in the CL, and Figo and Zidane have declared all the year long that they are anxious of winning the CL, something they haven't done yet.
So where has been the League? With such a weak start, it was already amazing the way RM climbed up to the top by midseason. Since then, the lack of concentration has been evident. As a result, we've lost exactly HALF THE MATCHES :dazed: we've played away this year (9). It's even a miracle we'll be on the podium at the end (because I now bet we'll be third).
Exactly like 1998 and 2000 we'll fight for the CL to decide if the season is a success or a crash. It worked fine in the past but will be the same ever? I think we shouldn't have taken the risk :scared:
 

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why we will loose la liga.

the simply explaination is that Valencia won more games!;)

He can talk and talk for this reason or that reason some would be valid points while others may seem far fetched.

The reason why has alot to do with a packed football calendar, players being sent here of their respective NT than turn around and on 2 days later playing in domestice cups or titles. This takes it's toll with fatigue and injuries. This holds true for all clubs some have been crippled by injuries, however the one thing DB didnt do but said he would employ at the begining of the year was a rotation system. There were alot of us who didnt not like the idea of a rotation system but who knows we could have won la liga!

I say we but all of our energy into UEFA Champions League!
 

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Rijkaard said:
Imo, Madrid was too much confident with the arrival of Zidane.
not sure if I could agree, I mean it was a media circus but early in the season most fans realized that the team was not blending and formations were not working. It wasnt until Helguera came back from injury that we were able to play with 2 DM's.

I think most teams resented the fact that we were being dubbed the dream team and worked harder to beat us week in and week out
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
IMO, these are the main factors (in no specific order):

The Centenary Factor

There is abseloutly no doubt that this had alot of negative effect on our players and on Del Bosque. The pressure was immense for us to compete on all fronts and if you remember the thread "Realistic expectations?", where we discussed the possibility of us losing all competitions because of it. It has caused us to try and stretch our players in every single game, because almost every game was useful for our quest. It also caused Del Bosque to make the mistake of not resting some players when he needed to. As someone said a long time ago (it was Labas or Merengue), Del B would be massacred if he chose to rest a key player (a Raul, a ZZ or a Figo) and the team lost, even if that decision was the right one overall.

We might end up second in all three competitions :scared: which is a good indication that if we set our priorities right, we could have easily been more successful.

Lack of Motivation

Resulted of the previous point, Del B fell in the same mistake many times of playing ALL his starters after a crucial win, in a game which was "oh, another Liga game". Instead of looking to rest some of his fatigued stars (and knowing that they would probably lack motivation), and going to some players on the bench (who would relish the chance to play and give 110% in hopes to win a starting place), he made the mistake over and over again and it cost us dearly.

Don't we all agree how Solari is having a break-through year? how do you think that happened? he was warming up the bench, injuries occured and he found himself on the field, his only chance to prove something...and he delivered! Macca and Guti also did on a smaller scale. The fact remains we still have a very solid bench of players who have more or less always performed if needed, and Del Bosque should have had more courage to make the decision and more faith in those players.

Loss of form

Again this is an extention of the previous 2 points, but the continuous pressure and fatigue has really caused alot of our key players to drop in form. Raul has scored 10 less goals in Liga so far, and 3 in CL. Yes he has the Super cup hatrick, more Copa goals and more assists for sure, but thats still a significance drop. Figo was runaway Liga assist leader last year, but this year his form horribly dropped. Helguera went from best DMC and possibly player in Liga last year to a guy we shift around so much and frequently not doing anything on the field most of the time.

Yes, its still a year where Makelele, Solari and Pavon emerged, and where we discovered alot of hidden talent on the bench. But considering that Raul, Figo and Helguera were the main three players to guide us to Liga last year, you can see how the loss of form of all three acted.

Lack of formation

Yes, when we have our game on we are a very difficult team to oppose, but fact remains we never settled on a formation all year, shifting players around as we go. Other teams with more stable formation were able to hit us on this point many times through the year. This goes back to the management's targets in the transfer market.

Am i upset Zidane came? Never! he is having a great year, but we can't go on adding players (like HiJazzy said) without looking at where we need to improve. We really have too many in one position and very few in others. We also don't have balance in how players compliment each other. Last year, Macca was brilliant in complementing Roberto Carlos because Macca can go back and defend. This year, we just sent our most skillful players and hoped their talent prevails. When our players' motivation was at it best, it paid off. but when it wasn't....

These are the main points in my opinion. We now have one and possibly two VERY IMPORTANT games: The CL semi second leg, and if we advance, the CL final. If we achieve this, it would wash away many of the mistakes we fell into this year. But if we don't, then Valdano more then anyone should be questioned on his current structure of the team, and Del Bosque could find himself sitting in a Bernabeu office/administration job because he simply messed up. I like Del Bosque, respect him alot and have alot of confidence in his decisions, but he messed up this year and he can't afford to mess up anymore.
 

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Add to all these I think we need players who have the right attitude and I hate to say, but some of these hasn't.

The performances of some players have led me to believe that players who were with us through that REAL bad patch are able to show more fire and fight in times when our performances were like sh*t.
 

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For me the answer is simple, we never found that continuity we had last year when we could be forgiven with playing a bad game and relying on the stability to win by a single goal most of the time. This year the main part of our succes has been individual efforts, and if that clicked then our game to be honest sucked. Thats why we have lost so many points away from the Bernabeu, its just so much harder to open the floodgates for all that talent :(

Also, the problems from last year were still there! There was lack of strikers and the defence was even worse then last year :eek: This year, Florentino will at least hit the right spot with his "Mega transfers" and a high profile striker will probably arrive. And hopefully, we will be able to spend a bit on a decent defender to give BOTH Pavon and Hierro competiton.

It was too bad we couldnt defend our title, people probably forgot our horrible start but they should be reminded of that and realise a champion has only very small periods of form loss, Valencia had just that consitency and won it....

All that remains now is to hope for a won CL, coming 2nd in the league, cup and (oh the horror) CL would give us a deep scar and people could say we failed even more then Barca :eek:
 

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What the heck is this??I know your one of the best teams in europe but surely a 2nd place finish and a CL title is enough for you, and you call it hard times???:eek: Id really hate to see if your team did worse cuz you seem devestated about tis whole thing, i think you should be grateful of what you got and maybe some of you are a little spoilt;)
 

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Go for 400, Raúl!
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As many of you have said, it is true that most key players just look exhausted after so many matches. That leads me to another problem: with the exception of Solari, Guti, César, and maybe Macca, our benchmen has just showed themselves completely out of place in Real Madrid. Did anyone feel confident when it was known that Flavio and munitis would play yesterday?? I don't think so.
We have had the kind of players that cry all along the year and then make absolutely nothing when given a chance (ex: Savio, Campo, Karanka) and the ones that look so calm and comfortable sitting on the bench or even on the plates that just suck a mile away, mainly Celades and Flavio. If we just can't trust these men, how the hell will Raúl, Hierro, RC or Helguera be given a rest?
Add that Del Bosque has looked more concerned about being gentle with them instead of picking up some players from the youth team that have just done fine (Bravo, Portillo, Valdo...) and you'll realize that we have a team of 14-15 players, all of the excellent, but this is just not enough to fight for everything
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Romafan,

IF we win the CL (don't know why you are jumping to that conclusion, because there is still a second leg with Barca and a final with either United or Leverkusen to worry about), but IF we win, NOT one of us will say this is a bad season. To me, and im sure to many, winning the CL would be a great achievement for the year.

But thats still an "if".

and the fact remains that we are really "losing" alot of games that we shouldn't. This discussion is share our thoughts on why we are failing to get the results we need, when we need them, in some occasions. Surely when you beat Bayern and Barca, but lose to Osasuna and Sociedad in the same period, you can see why we are upset.

Hope thats clear for you.
 

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Actually, I'm gonna be lame and bring it down to 2 things:
1) Valencia were very lucky... all year they sucked, played defensive football, without much of a clue, but to their credit they started putting it all together, when it really mattered - in the end. Right now no one is questioning Valencia's title, because they've been paying well lately, but check out the comments from some 2 months ago - everyone, even anti-madridistas were sick with the idea that such a boring, unspirited team could win it.
So what am I getting at? We just weren't lucky with Valencia - sure, you can credit them. You can also blame us, that we didn't rise to the occasion, and every champion should, bla bla bla... but in my view we were just very unfortunate. Luck plays a big part in football, wether you wanna admit it or not, and for once (?) we totally missed out on it.

2) the factors that have already been mentioned. We concentrated on everything, and in the end, we couldn't find the stamina to go through with it all... lack of coverage for players, and all that. Simple really.


However, I don't really see any particular reason to be in despair as some of you are making it sound. Let's not let the hype get to us, guys. Many of you claim we should stay levelheaded, yet you are anything but.
We are still in the ChL, the most prestigious competition... and we have the chance to humiliate Barca in the process. Both these things are priceless.
Let's focus on what we still have, and not let the centenary crap get to us, that we're invincable, what a shame, blah blah blah...

And remember, the league is still not over.
4 points in 2 games. Valencia travel to Malaga, where they'll get 1 point at most, and then host Betis, a game I think they'll draw too. I am positive Valencia will get no more than these 2 points from the remaining 2 games (call me optimistic, whatever), and if we consider that we're still not wihtout a chance. It would still be up to us... of course there's the trip to Depor, but like we always repeat, if you wanna be considered great, you beat the greatest and the biggest adversaries.
One thing I'm fairly confident of, is that the title race will go down to the last week (I'm sure we'll take out Mallorca in the Bernabeu, and like I mentioned Malaga should get a draw against Valencia), and past seasons in this championship have shown what the pressure does to teams when it all boils down to the last week. No need reminding everyone of a certain Djukic, who currently plays in Valencia's ranks?:D:devil:
Of course, it's all rather optimistic, it's not in our hands anymore, but right now I'm not exactly looking at things from a Real point of view, but overall from the league stand point, and I've seen enough crazy things in my short lifetime, to realize this scenario is far from farfetched:eek:


Whatever the case, I see little point in getting into these megalomania discussions, cause we still have the chance to achieve quite a bit this season, and the last thing we need is this kind of mentality. What worries me, is the fact that if we, Xtratime fans' are soaked through and through with this aura of defeat, then what the hell must the players' be feeling down in Madrid, where this aura is probably even worse.
I hope we can survive this mentally, because as in most sports, psychology is the deciding factor, and I can't say I'm very optimistic about our chances when I take this aspect into consideration. Cool it people;):cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Labas,

I was one of those people who couldn't believe Valencia can compete. The fact remains that NOT one Liga team was consistent enough. Would we or Deportivo have been in a much position now without CL? thats very possible. But fact remains that we all came to the final stages with no clear team in command. Remember those comments about comparing the situation as if the league just started, and all previous results are out the window? Valencia simply were more consistent from then on and thats that.

I can't see Valencia losing, part is because of the heart they showed in yesterdays game, and part because the opposition. Did you see Espanyol yesterday? I could have went with my 2 year old niece and put up a better fight. Remember, most Spanish teams are out to get Real Madrid and/or Barcelona (depends who is more successful at the time). Malaga will not play without any spirit against Valencia, and if the last CL spot is sealed, neither will Betis.

I disagree about your comments on us and the CL. Being in the CL is no excuse for Del B to make the same mistake over and over again, and defintly no excuse for some players to "not care" about games like Osasuna and Sociedad. It shows in how they play, and its disgusting :yuck: . losing when putting the effort is one thing, but losing because of such issues is another, and its not a good thing at all.

but just like i told Romafan, if they manage to now go on and win CL (and they should be more determined now), then we can pain happy pictures and enjoy such a win, though on paper, we still have this problem and it needs someone to fix it (read Valdano). but if we don't win CL....what would you say then? :eek:
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Re: why we will loose la liga.

Che said:
the simply explaination is that Valencia won more games!;)
Actually, we both won 19 games in Liga. We just lost more.
 

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labas said:

And remember, the league is still not over.
Very true, I mean it's amazing that all Madridista's have given up already and they even started a "congratulations" thread( Thanx Micke and co ;) ) in the Valencia forum :eek: I mean just like labas said, An away game against Malaga is going to be tough like hell for us and then we have the Betis game, it's not over yet ;)

labas said:

No need reminding everyone of a certain Djukic, who currently plays in Valencia's ranks?:D:devil:
Well, Djukic has been very solid for us IMO, and anyway Pellegrino is going to start in the upcoming two games, Ayala-Pellegrino again ;)
 

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If we don't win the ChL, the only thing that would seriously worry me, is our boards reaction. I don't buy any of the crap about Flavio and others not being good enough for our team. There's no such thing as a bench being equal to the starting 11, and even though we like to kid ourselves about it, it just won't happen. The players need action to be great. Depor's bench is probably the best out there, but still are you gonna tell me Duscher is as good as Mauro Silva, or even a Pandiani v Diego Tristan?
Let's be realistic - the bench is not the problem, the problem is we're relying to heavily on a bunch of individual genious's, and when you do that - you gamble. Sometimes it pays, sometimes it doesn't - time to get used to it. On the other hand I refuse to call this team nothing more than a bunch of individualists, because it is not a Real 2000, where everyone was playing for themselves.
So if we don't win, I'm just scared of a complete clear out, half the team being sold, and madness like that.
We have to face certain facts - this team is not the legendary Real of 56-60, and the opposition is just much stronger nowadays... it won't be about Real winnning the league back in March, then having tons of time to prepare for the "others' "...

We often boast about the spanish league being the best, but it seems few actually realize what that means - for me our league is the best because every team is challenging for something. That makes it way harder than anything anywhere in the world. Italy, Germany, England, whatever... for me these leagues all have the same format, where there's the big and the puny. We have the big and medium, and that's what makes it a monumental task.
I think we both agree about Valencia and that moment in the season, where we had the EXPLOSION thread in the spanish forum. It started all over, and we had the "unfortunate" situation, where we progressed in the ChL, whilst Valencia were out of the UEFA Cup.
To me, we're all just a bit naive in a way - history is the best teacher, and it happened in 2000, when the league got won - or actually to me it's - got LOST by Real and Barca in favor of Depor. Then in 2001 Real got knocked out of the ChL and cruised home for the league...
and this year it's the same story once more. We all believed the myth of the great Real, the invincable team that would do it on their centenary year. I think we might have just been a bit naive, and to be honest, I admit I was - being a Merengue, I prefered to leave some of the sensible arguments out the door, and live the dream.
Was this team ever capable of doing it? I think it's possible with luck, but then I think again about how I used the luck excuse back last season, when Bayern pipped us for the ChL. I'm confused about it all, because I just don't know what exactly went wrong. And when did it go wrong? Depor beating us on the 6th of march, a day on which they had hit the peak of their form. Bad luck or what? Look at them now...
But you can't go on blaming luck forever, and in a way I just think we tried to evade the tactical problem of Zidane and Figo, and in the end to no avail. No matter how great the players are, it seems that in a long season, a stable tactic means more than a couple of genious's.
I believe we will go on to salvage this season with the ChL trophy, because justice has to be served in som form, and I will be happy with that... but if we don't? It's a tuffy - but football is all about risk, and "to the edge" stuff. You think we can do it? I know we can, and that's why we will.
If I asked you the same question but instead of just Chl, you had both that and the spanish league... would you have once during the season said a confident "we can, and we will". I know, I wouldn't have:eek:
Maybe that's the difference?:confused:
You say - now we have our backs against the walls, and we gotta do it! If we had won both the Copa, and league by now, the pressure on the guys to win the ChL would still be enormous, so in a way I can't totally agree, although i don't neglect the point either.
In a way it's good we got Puta in the semi's, cause beating them and the ChL makes it soooo much sweeter, and it will even out the possible "disappointment". But you gotta do it, until then, it's all academic, and that's why...


Like you, i think Valencia will win the league, because it's the same situation we had in 2000, and I strongly believe it'll be that same situation to the maxxxx - meaning it'll go down to the last day, and we'll lose out, but as it would later turn out, the chance was still there begging to be used. I agree this league has that way of "trying harder" against Real n Barca, but Malaga is the one team we supposedly have peace with? I think they'll put a good stand, especially since they're still in for the Inter-toto Cup:hopefull:
Nah, it just can't end this easily, it's been too crazy a season... how often do i see my predictions coming right, based purely on irrational arguments?:) It's frightening:D;)


And what mistakes do you accuse del Bosque of making? He's no magician, he can't make the players perform. They're just not a good enough !team!, to have it all easy:embarass:
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Labas,

Where did i once blame luck? :confused:

I agree with your points about not realizing that our team isn't as strong as its made out to be (the media and some fans do). But, did we ever really feel that? I don't think so. remember we talked about this in "Realistic expectations?" as well.

However, keep in mind two things:

1) There wasn't a team out there that was really any better. So, the very least that we could say we were in with a good shot to compete for Liga. Valencia this year isn't even as consistent as Depor 2000 was.

2) Saying that, Del B's mistake was his lack of confidance in his bench and lack of authority to make the calls needed. Lets now fool ourself, alot of the players performed horribly at times and Del B lacked the balls to yank them, or at least rest them and not play them EVERY single game! and the fact remains that our bench in general has performed well when called upon.
 

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Real madrid are too over confident and thats the reason for your dismal season! You buy zidane and you think your gonna win the Spanish cup, La liga and the champions league and now its a possibilty that you might not win nothing! Once again, most of you think that your not going 2 win La liga but you've already got your name on the Champions League, you better think again because man united are still in with a chance! Man united at there best are more then capable of beating real madrid!
 
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