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Discussion Starter #1
Here's a quick bit of new from channel4.com:


Flamini's Milan culture shock

Milan midfielder Mathieu Flamini claims there is a world of difference between his former club Arsenal and the Rossoneri's match preparations. The French ace moved on a free transfer to San Siro over the summer and insists he is enjoying life in Italy. “It was a great game on Sunday,” he said about Milan's derby win. “I felt a lot of emotion with the fans 200 per cent behind their team. It's different from Arsenal in terms of physical and tactical preparation at the start of the season. But anyway I feel a lot of joy to be able to be part of this team.”


I wonder how different it is to be training at Milan with Ancelotti and co. and doing the same in London with Wenger. Traditional speaking English clubs have had a completely different approach to the physical and tactical preparation in training sessions, but as time has gone on and national leagues have become more "foreign" this should in theory not be so much the case. Even more so at a club like Arsenal with a French coach.

Whether it be a Spanish, German, French, English or Italian club you'd think that there should be a lot of similar methods in their training sessions because with many things in football, you'll find a certain thing works much better than everything else. The vast majority of teams use a back four, zonal marking. Professional clubs are strict on diet and in modern football there's a general demand to be a fit athlete. It's not like the old days where each national league was more unique and individual in these aspects like tactics and training... or is it? Flamini seems to be saying so. Have your say.
 

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Great thread.

This is something that always interested me in a big way.

Its strange to hear that the pre season and the physical part of the training are very different when all the teams have a similar number of games per season.

The Italians have 20 clubs in their league and play 38 games per season
English 20 - play 38 games per season
Germany 18 - pla 34 games per season
Spain 20 - play 38 games ps
France 20 - play 38 games

The tactical side to the game is evidently different so the preperations for tactics surely is also but the physical part has me thinking?

The food intake should be similar for all of them.
The intensity of the trainings and the frequency of the trainings should be similar.

You would think that we will all generalise and say that the english clubs will be more concentrated on the fitness side and the Italians more of the technique but this is not the case because as Rodriguez said Wanger is not an english coach and would be brining the French element to the preperations with him.

I will keep thinking and come up with something.
 

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When Mourinho came alot of our players spoke about the difference in training methods between him and all the previous coaches they had (in italy atleast). Most of them said about the training always having the ball in training with previously they used to doing more physical work, including alot of running and weights.

Which always made wonder why all the Italian teams generally look slow or tired towards the last few months of the season while the british teams seem to run even faster.
 

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Mourinho is one of the chief exponents of "periodizacion tactica", which basically sets a hierarchal method of training. In this method, the tactic reigns supreme in his training, it is the main idea of how the team will play. he puts all other aspects under the tactic, these "subsets??" are the building blocks of the game that in the past have often been seen/trained in exclusivety to the global "tactic". Mourinho never loses sight of the tactic as it is the essence of all of his work, so he never does any work that would not benefit the overall tactic. For instance, he would never send the players to go running through the mountains for fitness, because this has little/nothing to do with football. instead, he creates environments for fitness work that are fully intertwined with the game of football. probably something that involves more physical contact, jumping, falling and getting up, changes of direction, etc. that is why, as was said before, the ball is present at all moments. (Why train for football without the ball??) All training sessions have a purpose to improve upon the final tactic/final product. Sounds simple, but you'll find that most managerial methods of the past are nothing like this, and probably most are still not like this. You'll find more of this in continental europe, but maybe the epl is seeing this as the faces of the managers in the league become more foreign.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Interesting points all round.

Mourinho's always been noted for his training methods, and of course it makes perfect sense to train with the ball as much as possible. I havent read much into Wenger's training, so I cant compared it to Mourinho's or Ancelotti's for that matter.

Italian football is probably the most true to it's origins when it comes to tactical and physical preparation. This is due to there being much less of an influx of foreign coaches like there are in England for example. Rarely there seems to be stranieri coaching clubs in Serie A. Guys like Mourinho (and prior to him Zeman) are a rarity in calcio. Italy has possibly the best coaching school in the world, Coverciano, and to my knowledge never has a foreigner coaching the Azzurri. All this has preserved the unique identity and ways of how Italian coaches think and act, it's therefore more pure and unique compared to other countries.

Perhaps this is why there is such a marked difference for guys like Flamini coming to play in Italy. It's maybe more of a case of Italy just being different to everywhere else in Europe for the reasons explained above.
 

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Interesting thread indeed. Wenger's training can't be bad at all of course considering Arsenal played and ran Milan off the park at the San Siro :) tbf a lot had to do with the aging Milan players. Maybe they should be a bit gentler with these old guys in training.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Interesting thread indeed. Wenger's training can't be bad at all of course considering Arsenal played and ran Milan off the park at the San Siro :) tbf a lot had to do with the aging Milan players. Maybe they should be a bit gentler with these old guys in training.
There's nothing wrong with Wenger's training, that's not under scrutiny here. I dont think Ancelotti needs training tips either, he's won more CL's as a coach than Arsenal have as a club. Anyway our squad's overall age has dramatically reduced with added quality (thanks for Flamini, he is really great :)).

By the way, Maldini was probably Milan's best player over the two legs. :strong:
 

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Great thread.

This is something that always interested me in a big way.

Its strange to hear that the pre season and the physical part of the training are very different when all the teams have a similar number of games per season.

The Italians have 20 clubs in their league and play 38 games per season
English 20 - play 38 games per season
Germany 18 - pla 34 games per season
Spain 20 - play 38 games ps
France 20 - play 38 games

The tactical side to the game is evidently different so the preperations for tactics surely is also but the physical part has me thinking?

The food intake should be similar for all of them.
The intensity of the trainings and the frequency of the trainings should be similar.

You would think that we will all generalise and say that the english clubs will be more concentrated on the fitness side and the Italians more of the technique but this is not the case because as Rodriguez said Wanger is not an english coach and would be brining the French element to the preperations with him.

I will keep thinking and come up with something.
well although they have a same roughly same number of clubs and league games per season there are different requirements.

in epl you also have league cup, fa cup and since almost half of the epl play in europe 50% of them have to prepare for european games as well. there the load on a player is basically games every 3 days without a break.

in italy and germany for example you have only 1 cup competition in fact (as german league cup is played before the season starts) and majority of the clubs play games on average every 7 days and not every 3 days, and one has to add into equation that they do make a winter break.
also one has to take into consideration the intensity of the games. a game in epl is played at a faster pace than a game in serie a, which means that in epl one needs to be more fit for one single game than he has to be in serie a for example.

difference in physical preparation is understandable as physical intensities of competitions vary.

if your season schedule and football played in the league is physically more demanding you'll spend more time working on it which will take time you have at your disposal to work on tactics and technique.

in the end coach can't always implement their ideas to the level they want to. say an english coach comes to serie a and tries to implement english type of fast paced football into his club. he may take the league by the storm and do better than expected but it is just as likely that less time he spends on tactical preparation for the games will leave holes which his opponents will exploit and eventually he'll fail. one always has to adapt to his surroundings, and imo that's why cases of coaches who conquer everything in one league but fail in another are frequent.
 

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When Mourinho came alot of our players spoke about the difference in training methods between him and all the previous coaches they had (in italy atleast). Most of them said about the training always having the ball in training with previously they used to doing more physical work, including alot of running and weights.

Which always made wonder why all the Italian teams generally look slow or tired towards the last few months of the season while the british teams seem to run even faster.
i think the fact explained in your 2nd paragraph comes down to the difference of the type of physical stress in the leagues. because of this difference in physical stress the focus of physical preparation is on different aspects.

in epl there is much more space, is that down to tactics or is the pitch size different i dunno but this increased space allows players to reach higher speed, the movement is fairly one directional so the focus of physical preparation is more on fitness so players could reach higher speeds and keep them for as long as possible. they are trained similarly to what marathon runners are trained for.

in italy there is much less space, generally there isn't the kind of free space which allows you to develop the speeds you do in epl. your movement is slower but its not as one directional as it is epl. since there is less space available one has to change the direction of movement more often than he does in epl and changing the direction of movement places strains on ligaments, joints and stuff so the focus on physical preparation is more on strength so the body's weak points such as muscles, joints and ligaments could bear the constant changes in load placed on them. of course this leads to very different focuses of physical training.
 

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Been thinking about this for a bit and I know that here in Croatia we have a winter break, where the players need to have another "pre season" to get back into the flow of the competition.

NOw I am not 100% certain but I dont beleiove there is a winter break in england so the difference in preperation could well be due to this (and as MM said playing every 3-4 days).

In the EPL a player will need to reach his maximum and it is maintained thru constant performances this is why the rotational system to games used by Wanger works a treat and keeps players fresher.

While in the Seria A for example, the maximum is reached preseason and the games alone would not be enough to keep a player at that level fitness wise so training sessions involving a lot of running are surely a must.

I dont know enough about the physical preperations but surely they are an etremely important factor in a teams development and sucess.
 

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@Blast

I don't think anyone can disagree that running in training sessions to gain fitness is a must. However, as training methods evolve, we are seeing managers/trainers clever enough to combine their fitness with actual football specific training, rather than training like a track athlete. I think it makes sense.
 

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I found the idea very interesting also and I also agree that it makes a lot of sence.

Been thinking about my preseasons and how dissapointed I was with playing "man in the middle??" for 10 minutes and then sprinting for the rest of the training session.

The sprints have to be done in the pre season. This surely is a must as its the hard yakka that MUST be done to elevate fitness and speed.

To incorporate the ball into this excerscise I would have the players run for the lenght which is decided towards the goal, and at the 20 meter mark from the goal, where a ball is waiting, make a 20m pass into the goal (block off 2/3 of the goal so they have to pass between a 2 meter gap). A payer that misses more than 30% (3 of ten shots) does extra sprints at the end. ;)

EDIT: Similar to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfnOQPZhvfQ&feature=related

This would be getting the required fitness level and also increase concentration when fatigued (it would also be a bit of fun instead of boring old sprints)

Anyone else have any ideas, this is extremely interesting as I am planning to get my coaching certificate and try some of these things out ;)
 

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Or even a 40 meter sprint, then getting the ball and juggling 50 times then another 50 meter sprint then the same again.

I had a coach now that I think about it who forced this type of training, and boy was it hard to concentrate when fatigued, especially jugggling the ball while your legs are heavy.
 

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I found the idea very interesting also and I also agree that it makes a lot of sence.

Been thinking about my preseasons and how dissapointed I was with playing "man in the middle??" for 10 minutes and then sprinting for the rest of the training session.

The sprints have to be done in the pre season. This surely is a must as its the hard yakka that MUST be done to elevate fitness and speed.

To incorporate the ball into this excerscise I would have the players run for the lenght which is decided towards the goal, and at the 20 meter mark from the goal, where a ball is waiting, make a 20m pass into the goal (block off 2/3 of the goal so they have to pass between a 2 meter gap). A payer that misses more than 30% (3 of ten shots) does extra sprints at the end. ;)

EDIT: Similar to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfnOQPZhvfQ&feature=related

This would be getting the required fitness level and also increase concentration when fatigued (it would also be a bit of fun instead of boring old sprints)

Anyone else have any ideas, this is extremely interesting as I am planning to get my coaching certificate and try some of these things out ;)
My suggestion or at least one example of what you could do would be to make groups of 8 players. This exercise is done in a square. 4 players are working on the inside (2 teams of 2), 4 players around the outside of the square as a wall. Basically it's a possession game. The pairs on the inside compete against each other to see who can get the most passes completed in a 2 minute game. Depending on the size of the field you choose to use, this drill will develop different types of fitness. if it's small, it's mainly changes of directions and physical contact/tackling fitness, but also challenging your technique at the same time by demanding the quality of your passes and receptions stay high. If you choose to make the field larger, then it becomes a challenge of sprints over larger distances while still keeping the context of moving without the ball, receiving, quality passes as well as all of the defending principles.

If you really wanted to make this drill more complete, you could add goals at either end so you could have finishing aspect. This is positive because instead of just working aimless possession there is a stress on being able to finish plays positively with a shot.
 

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Football players are hardly on a diet. In fact, recent research pointed out that the majority of pro football players were only as healthy as normal working people.
 

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It's true, that was Juande Ramos' main success last season with Tottenham. he said he got rid of the chips and ketchup and brought in food for athletes. I guess this season he went back to the buffet :pp
 
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