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Discussion Starter #1
Maybe Im just being a little but presumptuous here but this season has so far had a feeling of deja vu for me.

While the circumstances may not be the exact same, the feeling that the team is underachieving so far this season is similar.

Go back to the years between 2000 - 2002. United after winning the CL improve their team with Veron and Ruud, look actually stronger then they did when the won the treble, but the squad looks lethargic.

Add to this the fact that the managers retirement is starting to be discussed and the fact that some players appear to be not as focused (ronaldo, tevez, VDS = Beckham, stam, yorke) then you could be mistaken for feeling that United have taken their foot off the pedal in a time when the competition will not let them get away with it.

United against Everton, Liverpool and chelski started the games superbly making these teams look like pub teams (less so chelski) but when they scored they took their foot off the pedal, their eyes off the prize and ultimately ended up paying the price of 2 points in 9.

It could be put down partially to the fact that we havent had a settled central midfield for the whole season (which seems to go unnoticed by the press who make so much of injuries on other teams), but this does not explain poorly conceded goals, mistakes in defence and the teams inability to get themselves out of slumps in games with a shocking ability to be unable to pass the ball when things go pearshaped . .

I remember Veron Joining united and many thought that this would sow up the league and champions league at least for another season, but like the signing of berba this season it worked against the whole work ethics of the team and upset the balance of the team rather then strengthening it.

With Beckhams continuing arrogance & self importance (missing training so he could sign books for his wife in london, minding his child while his wife went shopping despite millions to have a babysitter) and lack of commitement to the cause, the team it seemed had other things on their mind. Substitute in an even more self obsessed player (C.R of course) and you sort of get an idea of where I am coming from here.

United had one selfish player to attend to last season (ronaldo), whereas this season an already faltering team has had to contend with two players (berba, C.R) who would be less likely to sacrifice themselves for the good of the team, meaning Park and Fletcher have been used more often then some fans would like, to facilitate the "pretty footballers" play some fancy pants football (mostly in the first half of games, until teams realise that they can be knocked off their stride!).

Tevez has been the major casualty of Berbas arrival, but I think its been ronaldo who could eventually be the differance between winning and losing trophies this season. Theres nothing more corrosive in a team (particularly one build on work ethics and spirit) then a rogue selfish footballer who looks like they would sooner move clubs then dig deep within themselves to help their club out of trouble.

We are only one quarter into the season so theres no panic button needed yet, but I cant shake the feeling that this season could end up dissapointing if the obvious lack of urgency on the teams part isnt sorted out quickly. Chelski are stronger then the opposition we came up against back in early 2000 so there is little or no room for longterm inconsistency . .
 

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It could be put down partially to the fact that we havent had a settled central midfield for the whole season (which seems to go unnoticed by the press who make so much of injuries on other teams), but this does not explain poorly conceded goals, mistakes in defence and the teams inability to get themselves out of slumps in games with a shocking ability to be unable to pass the ball when things go pearshaped . .
Partially?

A lot of our failure to close games this season has to do with us missing our best central midfielders and the only ones capable of holding the ball.

Imagine Chelsea without Lampard and Deco for 90 percent of their games this season? Imagine Liverpool without Gerrard and Alonso, imagine Arsenal without Fabregas.

You're right, it has been overlooked by the media but then again that shouldn't surprise you given the different treatment we receive from the media here. Anyway, the rest of your posts is utterly melodramatic, we have another 30 games left.

PS. Last season away at Chelsea, Liverpool , Portsmouth, Blackburn and Everton we got 8 points. This season we've been to all those ticky away games already, and got the same amount of points.

Your point would be a ****ing ridiculous one, even if this wasn't much younger and still had a lot more potential than the one during the period you talk of.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Your point would be a ****ing ridiculous one, even if this wasn't much younger and still had a lot more potential than the one during the period you talk of.
Ronaldo (the real one), Ronaldhino, Anelka, Raul . . .

All these players are an example of a football culture where players peak in their early 20's, win all honors and never quite play to their potential again or scale the heights of their earlier years.

If you read my post properly I did say theres no panic yet.

The fact that we have dropped the points isnt as worrying as the manner in which we have dropped them, thats my arguement.

Losing your central midfield doesnt justify the whole team being incable of passing or retaining possesion in one half after dominating another. Inconsistent performances (even in a game) and erratic actions from the likes of Vidic and Ferdinand is not simply because we have no midfield. Fletcher has been a good player for us, I recall him and O'Shea playing in some important games last season and united still getting the win.

There is a direct comparison to what happened to the united team in the years after our treble win, not in the results they have gotten but the manner in which the team has responded to winning everything.

To reiterate my point, Im not worried at all about the points we have dropped, Im worried about the manner in which we have dropped them & how unresponsive the team has been.
 

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Ronaldo (the real one), Ronaldhino, Anelka, Raul . . .

All these players are an example of a football culture where players peak in their early 20's, win all honors and never quite play to their potential again or scale the heights of their earlier years.
What on earth do those players have in common with these players? Get a grip of yourself for ****s sake, when United have had a top group of players they've been winning league titles consistently. Ferguson never allows hunger to drop and always keeps everyone on their toes. The barren years all coincided with changes being made in the team to replace older players.

Ronaldo and Rooney are the best two players in this league and they're both only 23 years old with still a lot of potential to fulfil, it's absolutely ludicrous to think they've peaked or are losing their hunger.

Ronaldo (the real one), Ronaldhino, Anelka, Raul . . .

All these players are an example of a football culture where players peak in their early 20's, win all honors and never quite play to their potential again or scale the heights of their earlier years.

Losing your central midfield doesnt justify the whole team being incable of passing or retaining possesion in one half after dominating another. Inconsistent performances (even in a game) and erratic actions from the likes of Vidic and Ferdinand is not simply because we have no midfield. Fletcher has been a good player for us, I recall him and O'Shea playing in some important games last season and united still getting the win.
O'Shea and Fletcher never started as a pair in games like Chelsea, Liverpool and Everton away mate. The midfield is the key to winning a game, it's the heart of the team and a calming influence of quality in there does the team a world of good and it has most certainly been the difference.

Carrick is arguably our most important player outside of the 2 R's and Rio.
 

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If theres any DEJA VU it has to be as last season when we started poorly.. and the rest is history...
 

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You are getting repetitive with your comments on ronaldo as was PB with his comments on Rooney. Ronaldo is not in the league of players you are talking about. He always trains hard and gives 100 percent in whatever he does, no matter how big a **** he is. I bet you will eat your words when he starts winning us games like he did in the past 2 seasons. Just that he is out of form doesnt mean that he is not focused.

Your point about our midfield is right though. Carrick has been the focal point of our mid-field for the past two seasons. Him not being there is the major reason for not finishing the games off. Still we arent far behind. With him getting back iam sure, we will be as good as the last two seasons.
 

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You are getting repetitive with your comments on ronaldo as was PB with his comments on Rooney. Ronaldo is not in the league of players you are talking about. He always trains hard and gives 100 percent in whatever he does, no matter how big a **** he is. I bet you will eat your words when he starts winning us games like he did in the past 2 seasons. Just that he is out of form doesnt mean that he is not focused.

Your point about our midfield is right though. Carrick has been the focal point of our mid-field for the past two seasons. Him not being there is the major reason for not finishing the games off. Still we arent far behind. With him getting back iam sure, we will be as good as the last two seasons.
The thing is, I was joking about Rooney, to wind people like Drummer up. He actually means what he says.
 

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YOU SUCK

NO............ YOU SUCK!!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #11
The thing is, I was joking about Rooney, to wind people like Drummer up. He actually means what he says.
Just Like you wind people up about Ronaldo being committed to the club!!!:pp

No shame in being completely wrong about most things PB, just dont try to pawn it off as a bad joke!! :smileani:
 

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And Like my previous post said there are similarities to what happened early 2000.

The gaffers future being the biggest most important thing of all. He has announced that he will not be managing at the age of 70 which means hes definantly gone in 3 years. He announced he was leaving the club 8 years ago and had the same team that won the league pretty much fall to pieces. Its obvious that when a managers future is called into question players lose focus.

And yes, Ronaldos antics last summer could end up hurting us more then we know. Hes not fully fit so I am not holding that against him, but his selfish antics could not be anything but counter productive to team morale. I said to a friend at the start of the season that I thought keeping him could be more trouble then it was worth.

People on this site can only work off stats (goals, games played) to judge a teams performance which is ridiculous. There are so many more dynamics to the game that the simple football fan just cannot appreciate. By that reckoning liverpool have been awsome so far this season which , anybody who has watched them, is completely ridiculous.

United have been awesome at times in games, but have let teams back into matches (uncharacteristically) that they were cruising in. Thats nothing to do with you missing your CM. You dont explain why top players suddenly forget how to pass the ball. Why did united dance around liverpool, everton and chelski for half the games and then capitulate. Thats too simplistic to put down to missing players, as how could they do it in the first half if they didnt have them!!

I havent even said that United are falling apart, but that there are glaring similarities between now and early 2000, which nobody has disprooved.

And Vidic, my point on those players was to counteract your point that we have a young team which doesnt really amount to much in modern football. My point was that many top footballers just lose the desire for the game after a couple of years, its happening more and more. One of the hardest things is keeping players motivated, but Sir Alex doesnt have the time now to reasemble a team if players do start to take things for granted. Just like in early 2000 when he bought big name players so he could go out with a bang.

PB dont bother replying unless you have anything interesting to read, which means dont bother replying!!! ;)
 

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Just Like you wind people up about Ronaldo being committed to the club!!!:pp

No shame in being completely wrong about most things PB, just dont try to pawn it off as a bad joke!! :smileani:
He's got a contract at United, that's as much commitment you can give a club.
 

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So Ronaldo is as comitted to United as say Giggs or Scholes . . :drunk:

Ronaldo openly demanded a transfer in the summer. Only reason hes at united is cause we wouldnt sell him.
If he openly demanded a transfer he'd have put in a transfer request. We've known for years he wants to play for Madrid one day.

Giggs is a boyhood United supporter and Scholes is a local who came through the youth system. You could even say that Giggs and Scholes have had no ambition to make it in another league if you wanted to be stupid, like you clearly are.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
If he openly demanded a transfer he'd have put in a transfer request. We've known for years he wants to play for Madrid one day.

Giggs is a boyhood United supporter and Scholes is a local who came through the youth system. You could even say that Giggs and Scholes have had no ambition to make it in another league if you wanted to be stupid, like you clearly are.
Still believing that Ronaldo is committed to United and he deserves our support eh ! !

You know, this whole ronaldo thing and those who support him reminds me of the Gallas situation where he cried on the pitch after the Birmingham game and Arsenal fans tried to delude themselves by convincing everybody that it just prooved his passion and leadership qualities. How they came to this conclusion is difficult to understand, but how anybody could think that ronaldo is "as committed as any united player" is just as idiotic if not worse.

The kid is as committed to United as Anakin Skywalker was to the jedi!!:smileani:

Scholes and Giggs have won more trophies at united then probobley any player playing football these days. Taking this FACT into consideration, To try to argue that they were unambitious is laughable.

Seriously PB you are making this far too easy . .
 

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Still believing that Ronaldo is committed to United and he deserves our support eh ! !

You know, this whole ronaldo thing and those who support him reminds me of the Gallas situation where he cried on the pitch after the Birmingham game and Arsenal fans tried to delude themselves by convincing everybody that it just prooved his passion and leadership qualities. How they came to this conclusion is difficult to understand, but how anybody could think that ronaldo is "as committed as any united player" is just as idiotic if not worse.

The kid is as committed to United as Anakin Skywalker was to the jedi!!:smileani:

Scholes and Giggs have won more trophies at united then probobley any player playing football these days. Taking this FACT into consideration, To try to argue that they were unambitious is laughable.

Seriously PB you are making this far too easy . .
Whilst a player is under contract, he is commited to that club and contract. That's a fact. Whether he has aspirations to play in Spain is another thing. Should a player be criticised for wanting to join the biggest club in the world?

Explain to me how he's not commited. Stories in the paper over the summer? Most of which were nonsense, not all but most.

Like I said, it's not a view I share, but Giggs had the chance to go to Italy, he could have won even more there, then perhaps gone to Spain and won more there.

He'll go down as a United legend, not a world football legend.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Whilst a player is under contract, he is commited to that club and contract. That's a fact. Whether he has aspirations to play in Spain is another thing. Should a player be criticised for wanting to join the biggest club in the world?

Explain to me how he's not commited. Stories in the paper over the summer? Most of which were nonsense, not all but most.

Like I said, it's not a view I share, but Giggs had the chance to go to Italy, he could have won even more there, then perhaps gone to Spain and won more there.

He'll go down as a United legend, not a world football legend.
Are you seriously suggesting that most of the stuff about ronaldo was made up in the summer?? Seriously mate, you got to get the head out of your ass..

Ok . .

Ronaldo wants to play at Madrid, this I have no problem with. Had he come out after the CL final and say he would like a move to Madrid, I would of gone, fair play, thanks for the memories and good luck!

Straight after the C.L final the rumours began. Not necessarily his fault. The rumours continued throughout the summer and most of us thought that he had pretty much left the club. Why?

Because ANY quotes or interviews he had done he had indicated that he wanted to play for Madrid (remember quotes of a player should not be held against his will, remember a slave quote in there).

Not once during the whole summer did he quash the rumours of a move to Madrid, something that would of easily put his hardcore fans at ease.

So how is he not committed? Well, personally he is the least committed player to the club that we have. Sometimes not saying anything (to quash the rumours) can speak louder then saying something. The kid was totally out of order in the summer (dont care who is advising him) and he let millions of fans down. Personally the ONLY reason I am glad united didnt sell him to Madrid was because Madrid were just as brash as Ronaldo in trying to force the transfer through.

And on a side note, Giggs couldve moved to Italy while playing for the most successful English side at the time. Giggs playing for the english champions is similar to Ronaldo wanting to play for Real Madrid. You could argue that moving from United to Madrid is currently a step down and not something that a player with huge ambitions would do (especially considering that english football is considered by many as the strongest in europe).

United players in the past (keane aswell) have used Italian clubs when negitiations over contracts begin. Theres nothing new in that, not nice, but anytime contract negotiations are due its the nature of the beast. Ronaldo signed a contract at the start of last season and had no reason to be so aggresive in the manner in which he either really wanted the move (which is obvious) or a bigger contract.

I really and truely hope that you honestly dont believe the Bullsh*t charm offencive that the ronaldo camp has been doing since fergie put him in his place.

ronaldo was committed when he signed his contract over a year ago, but after he won the double he lost any elemements of commitement and was only prevented from moving to Madrid by the contract (the tool that supposedly means you are automatically as committed as any other player).

I assume you just argue for the sake of arguing.
 

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Are you seriously suggesting that most of the stuff about ronaldo was made up in the summer?? Seriously mate, you got to get the head out of your ass..

Are you seriously suggesting most of the stuff that came out in the Spanish papers and from random news sources all over the world are fact? Of course not, it just suits your anti Ronaldo agenda.


Ok . .

Ronaldo wants to play at Madrid, this I have no problem with. Had he come out after the CL final and say he would like a move to Madrid, I would of gone, fair play, thanks for the memories and good luck!

He said he wanted to play there a few years ago, why should he have to reitorate the point, straight after the CL final. Can you imagine how badly he'd have been slaughtered for that? I find it ironic that you wanted him to do this, yet blame him for ruining our celebrations because it was all about him supposedly.

Straight after the C.L final the rumours began. Not necessarily his fault. The rumours continued throughout the summer and most of us thought that he had pretty much left the club. Why?

Straight after the CL final, on the pitch, he said he wants to stay. Dress it up how you want, call him a liar, twist his words around, but that is fact, everyone saw and heard him say it.

Because ANY quotes or interviews he had done he had indicated that he wanted to play for Madrid (remember quotes of a player should not be held against his will, remember a slave quote in there).

Again, interviews get taken out of context, lines go missing and it is edited, that's just basic journalism. That slave comment was taken totally out of context, he wasn't suggesting he is a slave. He was making the point (and one that has an element of truth to it) that players get kept at a club and it detracts from their progress. Look at brilliant players in shit teams, they're not going to improve.


Not once during the whole summer did he quash the rumours of a move to Madrid, something that would of easily put his hardcore fans at ease.

He was playing for Portugal in the Euros. Why should he have to come out to put dullards minds at ease?


So how is he not committed? Well, personally he is the least committed player to the club that we have. Sometimes not saying anything (to quash the rumours) can speak louder then saying something. The kid was totally out of order in the summer (dont care who is advising him) and he let millions of fans down. Personally the ONLY reason I am glad united didnt sell him to Madrid was because Madrid were just as brash as Ronaldo in trying to force the transfer through.

What about super Wes Brown, refusing to sign a contract, I thought he was a United fan giving full commitment. If Ronaldo wasn't commited, he wouldn't have turned up from training every day, he wouldn't give 100%, he wouldn't do various charity work linked with United. The way United is run, do you really think we'd keep a player at the club who isn't showing full commitment?

And on a side note, Giggs couldve moved to Italy while playing for the most successful English side at the time. Giggs playing for the english champions is similar to Ronaldo wanting to play for Real Madrid. You could argue that moving from United to Madrid is currently a step down and not something that a player with huge ambitions would do (especially considering that english football is considered by many as the strongest in europe).

Giggs is a United fan and wouldn't have dreamed to move, that's why. Nothing to do with Unite dbeing champions, he'd have stayed even if we were relegated, see Del Piero. When Ronaldo retires, do you think he's going to look at his trophies and think, "wow, I won everything I could at United, several times over" or "I've won everything I could have won at United several times over, but I wish I played for Madrid to showcase my skills in a different league, to win another top division and maybe a European cup". Of course it's going to be the latter, because he's highly ambitious and if he has a dream, he'll try and take it with both hands.


United players in the past (keane aswell) have used Italian clubs when negitiations over contracts begin. Theres nothing new in that, not nice, but anytime contract negotiations are due its the nature of the beast. Ronaldo signed a contract at the start of last season and had no reason to be so aggresive in the manner in which he either really wanted the move (which is obvious) or a bigger contract.

Name some more players other than Keane, because I can't remember anyone saying Juventus or Inter Milan were interested so give me an improved contract. Where was the aggression? If he was aggressive about getting his move to Madrid, he'd have gone on strike and refused to play until we sold him.

I really and truely hope that you honestly dont believe the Bullsh*t charm offencive that the ronaldo camp has been doing since fergie put him in his place.

My opinions on the whole situation have been from what I've heard Ronaldo and Ferguson say directly. I have no time for what some 'advisor' has come out with.


ronaldo was committed when he signed his contract over a year ago, but after he won the double he lost any elemements of commitement and was only prevented from moving to Madrid by the contract (the tool that supposedly means you are automatically as committed as any other player).

And he still is, but he said it years ago, one day he dreams of playing for Madrid. Get over it, a player thinks there's a bigger club in world football than us and in terms of trophies, they are. It's not about the money for Ronaldo, not with the contract renegotiations that have been talked about £20k a week extra. If Madrid were serious with the £300k after tax a week, I don't care who you are, you would not turn that down.


I assume you just argue for the sake of arguing.
Let that be a line under it.
 
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