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How is Juv going with the books this year? Ive heard of the possible 'rejuvination' in the transfer window yet Nedved will have to be sold to make it possible :eek: !

How much money do you think Juv has and how much transfer funs shall be giving in the transfer window?
 

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well, with being rumoured to about 574736589 different players, i think we need to break into the Swiss Bank and take a few billion.

well, some say we are going to have a major overhaul while others think moggi will keep it as has always been and make minor changes.

I truly believe that the club should sell more than just trezeguet and i believe Moggi may be forced to do this anyway.

as for funds...well, if trez, nedved and a few others left, i believe Moggi could get up to 50 million euros altogether. but its relative to how leaves and who is paying..eg. chelsea gives a lot more cash than others.
 

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The deficit is about 22 million euros. Not a lot considering income and the upcoming wage cuts that are going to happen.

I get the impression some people like Glen see this as a big deal but I dont. That is easily managable for a club like Juve to fix in the next year and still operate in the mercato for what is wanted.
 

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The deficit for this season was 22 million at the end of the last fiscal quarter (i.e December). It will amount to quite alot more at seasons end given our early exit from CL.€40-45 million is not at all unrealistic.

If we were to go by the numbers; our short/long term debt ratio compared to turnover, equity and assets... then there are at least two ways of looking at it:

1: Look at Juve as a business listed on the exchange.

Seing that we, in the past years of the Triad (1994), have always registered a profit at seasons end one could assume that we'd have liquid capital to deal with a single year loss of this nature. More so when our owner is incredibly rich. However- if you add all the profits of the last decade together- you arrive at a number that will most likely be the same or less than the deficit we're going to face this season. Our net capital situation is far from impressive.
Add that our incredibly rich owner will NOT spend on Juventus (i.e we must manage on our own terms), and that Juventus wants to be seen as a a serious business for investors to look into- we're not going to see Juventus do like...


2: ...Our rivals
Milan and Inter are both more than €300 million in debt. The reason they can continue like they do is that their owners cover the debts from their own pockets and through "Italian fiscal management" (we've done a bit of the same admittedly :eek: ).
Roma, Lazio and Parma are all on the brink of financial collapse/bordering liquidation. Roma lives at the mercy of CapItalia, Lazio will need a total downscale and Parma... Parma are under government control really.

Our LONG TERM situation is good. Our short term ability to work the market is very difficult indeed.
What everything comes down to is that management needs to make a decision as to whether they'll do the hard thing now and get really sound again, or if they want to gamble on making a successfull CL run next year again; thus making investments in advance of balance improvements.

I hope our investors and the club are in agreement to work towards the latter, and I believe there are several ways to work the market towards that end without spending a gazillion. However- with recent (expensive) transfer failures in mind- it is clear that this road is risky, and one the success of which cannot be taken for granted. Afterall- basing your finances and the management of those on future success on the field is what put Roma, Lazio and Parma in difficulties to begin with, and while our resources are in another league compared to these teams- you see the same signs in the other major leagues.

Without Abramovich Chelsea would be in the same situation as Lazio. Monaco are, despite their CL run living at the mercy of the Principality notorieties (Prince Albert in the main)... and the Spanish top teams are greatly in debt as well. As with Milan and Inter- it's only extraordinary circumstances that allow Real and Barca to run the operation they are.

When you say Juventus- there are really very few teams to compare to in terms of financial situation. Bayern and Manchester, add Liverpool perhaps, come to mind as teams being run on the basis of income/deficit ratios. Manchester given their higher turnover and lower salary expenses having a substantially sounder economy than we do. As do Bayern I think, even if we beat them in turnover.

No... it's not a situation to take lightly. We're still a giant, but we've been making a mess of things on the market lately (Athirson, Salas, Di Vaio in terms of the incomming players) and Davids + perhaps Trezeguet on the outgoing side. It's quite feasible that we'll have to end up paying a price for that this off season.
 

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The bottomline is we're gonna have to buy smart. We've had too many expensive flops like Salas, Di Vaio, and co. We need to get relatively cheap but effective solutions to our squad problems in this off season.
As mentioned before, the last time we had a significant overhaul was when we sold Zidane and bought Salas, Buffon, Thuram, Nedved, and so on. Add to that we renewed quite a few contracts of our old guard during that period as well, it has inevitably meant the club has been under a large financial burden. Now, those expensive investments have worked for us on the field (2 Scudetti and a CL final) but this era is now coming to an end, and we don't have the money currently to start another era with the same sort of big names. And i don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, although it will impede us from competing for the highly coveted players in the world market.

If long term financial stability and prosperity means a short term uncompetitiveness in the transfer market, then that is the price we must pay (no pun intended) for being an economically viable and healthy club. The last thing we want to do is end up like the other top Italian teams, who are simply spiralling uncontrollably into debt.

The club will have to invest in youth, and that by extention will probably secure us a competitve team over a longer period than buying established stars, who will serve us for a shorter duration.
 

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polaris said:
I get the impression some people like Glen see this as a big deal but I dont. That is easily managable for a club like Juve to fix in the next year and still operate in the mercato for what is wanted.
polaris said:
I agee with you guys.

Karl Rove and Alastair Campbell should watch their corners ;).
 

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Nero, in terms of youth, i think Moggi and juventus have always looked at the young talents. The thing is that once we seem to sign the best young talent going around, Moggi seems to ruin them. The notion of buying youth, then loaning them out to another team, then getting them back and using them again in a swap deal is a pattern which probably has costed us in the long run. A perfect example is Brighi and Blasi. Brighi returned to the club only to be loaned again for two seasons to get Di Vaio. Blasi was bought, then loaned straight away for a season to get Appiah. Now, Di Vaio hasnt paid off as such, considering Moggi spent a shitload of cash on him as well, and Appiah looks like he is following in those footsteps as well. So, basically what my point is that the signings are like a multiple effect as such. We buy players like Brighi and blasi outright, not for a lot of cash, but still, it all adds up, and then we loan them again and spend more other teams' talent. And this process is ongoing.

The same can be said for many others. We have some very talented players who we have signed over the years and havent been seen yet as regulars. Guzman is one example. He was hot shit a few seasons back, and yet, we just loaned him out and never gave him a chance to break through. The only real last couple of players who were bought at a young age and have become regulars by coming up through youths would be Del Piero and Tacchinardi. Every other player has been bought. And i think that is a problem considering juventus are meant to have one of the best youth teams going around and the fact that Moggi is constantly buying these talents and none are coming through is an issue the club should look in to. Compared to ajax who seem to shoot out more world class players then maybe 10 clubs do altogether each season.

Wages should be easing come this summer. Montero, Iuliano, Thuram (maybe) and a few others are possibly leaving, so hopefully the new younger players that come in are not looking to get the same wages. But it is a concern when certain players like Di Vaio for example are earning wages which they should not be. Even Del Piero now, even though he has reduced his wage, he has to do a lot more than get injured and miss huge periods of the season.

Relating back to the summer in which Zidane left and the others joined. Well, Zidane got us a lot cash. And i suppose Moggi predicted that the market value would drop and that is why he didnt fight to keep Zidane at the club. Unfortunately, to get the kind of money that we got for Zidane, we would have to sell Trezeguet and even Nedved, and even those two might not be the equivalent to ZZ's pricetage. But in the end, the only way Juventus will get out of the red as such, is to sell these players and buy smartly.
 

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CUG said:
Nero, in terms of youth, i think Moggi and juventus have always looked at the young talents. The thing is that once we seem to sign the best young talent going around, Moggi seems to ruin them. The notion of buying youth, then loaning them out to another team, then getting them back and using them again in a swap deal is a pattern which probably has costed us in the long run. A perfect example is Brighi and Blasi. Brighi returned to the club only to be loaned again for two seasons to get Di Vaio. Blasi was bought, then loaned straight away for a season to get Appiah. Now, Di Vaio hasnt paid off as such, considering Moggi spent a shitload of cash on him as well, and Appiah looks like he is following in those footsteps as well. So, basically what my point is that the signings are like a multiple effect as such. We buy players like Brighi and blasi outright, not for a lot of cash, but still, it all adds up, and then we loan them again and spend more other teams' talent. And this process is ongoing.

The same can be said for many others. We have some very talented players who we have signed over the years and havent been seen yet as regulars. Guzman is one example. He was hot shit a few seasons back, and yet, we just loaned him out and never gave him a chance to break through. The only real last couple of players who were bought at a young age and have become regulars by coming up through youths would be Del Piero and Tacchinardi. Every other player has been bought. And i think that is a problem considering juventus are meant to have one of the best youth teams going around and the fact that Moggi is constantly buying these talents and none are coming through is an issue the club should look in to. Compared to ajax who seem to shoot out more world class players then maybe 10 clubs do altogether each season.

Wages should be easing come this summer. Montero, Iuliano, Thuram (maybe) and a few others are possibly leaving, so hopefully the new younger players that come in are not looking to get the same wages. But it is a concern when certain players like Di Vaio for example are earning wages which they should not be. Even Del Piero now, even though he has reduced his wage, he has to do a lot more than get injured and miss huge periods of the season.

Relating back to the summer in which Zidane left and the others joined. Well, Zidane got us a lot cash. And i suppose Moggi predicted that the market value would drop and that is why he didnt fight to keep Zidane at the club. Unfortunately, to get the kind of money that we got for Zidane, we would have to sell Trezeguet and even Nedved, and even those two might not be the equivalent to ZZ's pricetage. But in the end, the only way Juventus will get out of the red as such, is to sell these players and buy smartly.
1. I agree, our talents haven't been given a real chance to play for the team recently, but at the same time i can only fault the management on Brighi's unceramonious 2 year loan stint for being shallow and misguided. For the rest of our talents, i don't think it's unreasonable to expect them to play a good season for a provinical team (that includes Parma :D) to prove themselves worthy of a place at Juventus. We cannot expect the management to let them waltz into the first team, especially when we play a lot of high pressure games (let's face it, all our games are high pressure affairs), with many of the important ones against world class opposition, they'd be out of their depths. A season or two in a smaller Serie A team builds not only the player's game up, but also builds character. It's part of the learning curve. I know you don't condemn the loaning policy per se, but i think its benefits should be outlined. As for Blasi, had Appiah played to the level he did at Brescia and Parma for us, no one here would really notice whether Blasi was loaned to Parma as part of the deal to bring Appiah to Turin. Of course Appiah has so far been a colossal disappointment at Juve, but i for one am willing to give him another shot next season. I think under the right coach and training regime, he could excel as a Juve player. And hindsight is 50/50, had Di Vaio been Ronaldinho or Ibrahimovic would you have object to sacrificing Brighi to obtain either of them? Be honest. ;)

2. Had Guzman been the real deal, i don't think he would have been left to obscurity. I think that is true for any of the young players that are deemed promising at one point but don't become prominent stars. Remember, the Juve bosses have a lot more exposure to these players than we do, and there are countless players that do well at youth level but don't cut it in the big time. Had Guzman excelled in his loan stint(s), i'm sure Juve would have gladly brought him back to Turin. I mean, having one's youth policy work is the most beneficial to the club, and it reduces expenses considerably. I don't see why Juve would not want to give their youth products a chance, if they were really good enough. As for Del Piero and Tacchinardi, the former will always be an exceptional talent, unfortunately there aren't many like him and so we can't expect more average players to be able achieve what he did at such a young age. The latter, i.e. Tacchinardi didn't break into the starting lineup until he was 25, an example of how incorporating young players into the team may also stunt their growth as players due to a lack of playing time. Although i'm not saying Tacchinardi deserved to play more regularly than when he did. I know you advocate bringing them into the team and playing them regularly, but that is not as feasible as perhaps we'd like it to be due to the pressures that stem for playing for such a big team. Although i do agree there is room to give our youth products a bigger chance of playing for Juve, especially now when we can't afford any real big name signings for instant remedies.

3. The young players will most definitely not be paid what the old guard used to get, as the market crashed long ago and any responsible club will not regress by going back to pay those kinds of wages of ri
 

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1. i'm all for the loaning spell for one season at a lower club. but if they perform as well as brighi and maresca did at bologna, then when they come back, they should be given the go and not loaned again. that was the point i was trying to convey.

2. the problem with guzman, and evne gasbaronni now is that they were loaned out to serie B teams. Gasbaronni did failry well with samp last season, and yet, we choose to loan him out again to a serie B club. why didnt we loan him to a serie A club so he could at least prove his worth in the harder division. Once again, i believe it relates to Lippi not having faith in young players.

4. Exactly!!!! this is why i also believe that the inconsistent and other players who are not good enough shouldnt be wasting the clubs time and money now. hence, camoranesi, di vaio and a few others shouldnt be there either. When the funds are needed, i think the club should get tuff and really make it known that juventus only wants quality players and doesnt allow free riders to play as they have done this season.
 

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Glen said:
Karl Rove and Alastair Campbell should watch their corners ;).
Not sure who those guys are, but I guess the in depth explanations went against my initial impression of what some people were thinking :)

In a few words, we just need to be smart with the money. Maybe buy some younger players and let them develop rather than buy some top players.
 

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CUG said:
2. the problem with guzman, and evne gasbaronni now is that they were loaned out to serie B teams. Gasbaronni did failry well with samp last season, and yet, we choose to loan him out again to a serie B club. why didnt we loan him to a serie A club so he could at least prove his worth in the harder division. Once again, i believe it relates to Lippi not having faith in young players.
Does Lippi influence the loans and transfers to that extent? I thought Moggi decided, and then people like Lippi and other scouts would give input. And Im sure Paleremo offered more money than any Serie A club was willing to and the good relation with them didnt hurt either to get Gasbaronni there.
 

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polaris said:
Not sure who those guys are, but I guess the in depth explanations went against my initial impression of what some people were thinking :)
Rove is chief spin doctor for Bush and Campbell is 'legendary' for having designed Tony Blair ;).
 

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Paolo_Montero said:
Glen you are such a boffin at times :D
:D

On account of the breakdown of Juve's financial situation or because I read up on international politics, Tom ;) ?

In any case.. must be happy days for you with the almost certainty of Trez leaving , no? How do you feel about getting Crespo in return from Chelsea perhaps, or Motta plus €10 million... or KluivertII.. Zlatan...

:eek:

Personally I'm gutted.
 

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Its funny, Juve is rumored to be interested in 73734638 players and its crazy to believe every single rumor. At the same time, if the press didn't report these rumors, the fans would be saying....."What the hell is Moggi doing? Why aren't we making offers, etc."

I think it would be wise to see what happens til the euro is over and see how these players perform.
 

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polaris said:
Does Lippi influence the loans and transfers to that extent? I thought Moggi decided, and then people like Lippi and other scouts would give input. And Im sure Paleremo offered more money than any Serie A club was willing to and the good relation with them didnt hurt either to get Gasbaronni there.
i dont think Moggi would go and buy players without asking Lippi if thats what he wants. I mean, we are not Inter, and Moggi doesnt have a wishlist like Moratti is known for having.

Lippi is the man who puts the players on the field and makes them play a certain way, it would only make sense that coincide with each other during the transfer period.
 

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Glen said:
:D

On account of the breakdown of Juve's financial situation or because I read up on international politics, Tom ;) ?

In any case.. must be happy days for you with the almost certainty of Trez leaving , no? How do you feel about getting Crespo in return from Chelsea perhaps, or Motta plus €10 million... or KluivertII.. Zlatan...

:eek:

Personally I'm gutted.
The scary thing is that you probably didn't read up, you already knew :eek: ;)

As for Trez leaving, yeah I won't hide it I'm delighted, not that anything's concrete. I ersonally am hoping we get morientes, he'd be a superb replacement IMO, plus he wouldn't probably be all that expensive. Crespo would be good though so long as he gets a bit fitter, he's looked rather sluggish in the EPL so far.

The motta idea I'm not such a fan of, I've seen him play an awful lot and never been overly impressed. Good-ish player but nothing special, not really what we should be after.

However I'm more interested in what happens to our defence this term, thats the acchiles heel so to speak. If I could choose one player to sign in the summer it would be Walter Samuel (unrealistic) or Phillipe mexes (realistic), one of those two we MUST buy to avoid another similar season.
 

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Well... Campbell and Rove aren't exactly obscure figures if you follow politics which my studies and work require ;).

I agree about defence and the Motta issue. The Trez thing we've debatted ad nauseam, so there's no point going there. I just hope we do well in terms of replacing him :(.
 
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