Xtratime Community banner

1 - 20 of 36 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,898 Posts
You forget that Cristiano Ronaldo is on the side of 5 Champions League winning sides tying Di Stefano (Gento has the most with six titles), most goals in the Champions League and will surpass Ali Daei for most all national goals in the world.

StillLearning, 'The Greatest'

1.) Messi
2.) Cristiano
3.) Puskas
4.) Pele
5.) Di Stefano
6.) G. Muller
7.) Maradona

:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,898 Posts
The great debate between Cristiano and Messi I believe resides in the true experts, 5 Golden Balls to 4, Messi is a more efficient and productive player weighed by the questionless gold standard of 'goal ratio' that explains winning goalscoring talent ounce-per-ounce as a player.

Messi has arrived to a World Cup Finale match whereas Cristiano was won the European Championship match, a slightly weaker tournament.

Messi and Cristiano are two greatest ever and they're still playing mid-career great fantastic ball, they're really neck-and-neck as to who is the 'The Greatest Ever' like in a sprint marathon. Both they are in and engaged in super competition as to that very question and the debate is wide and unsettled. One or the other will be the "Greatest Ever".

Did you know that Pele has never won the Golden Ball which was first awarded in 1956? Do you know why? The reason is Pele played in the state championship (non-national 2nd division) at Santos and but then was truly excellent in the national team.

In short, Pele played 2nd division and not top flight national 1st division ball at Santos. Pele was a tier-two, 2nd division world phenomenon because there was no top national division all throughout Brazil when he played super. Pele made his real name in two World Cups (1958, 1970), his club performance was super-duper 2nd division in Brazil.

Pele was not a national league top division player because a unified national top division league didn't exist for the majority of Pele's career at Santos at the time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60,232 Posts
has Messzi ever won anything?

world cup - no
Copa america - not sure, but my guess is no
club titles - who cares

fyi, Pelé didn‘t play 2nd division, there was no federal or national championship in Brazil until 1971, due to the distances. the state championships were 1st division. there was a national cup tournament though which Santos won more often than any other team.

as for Gerd Müller in that list, LMAO
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,898 Posts
Szov, it says most in the first paragraph of mine last post. Leave it to the global masterminds experts who award the Golden Ball and the questionless gold standard of the easily explaining 'goal ratio' benchmark, ounce-per-ounce talent wise Messi is a better player/goalscorer than Cristiano. Messi has more individual elan per game. Puskas Ocsi is 3rd.

Oh, by the way, I picked this up on the esoteric grapevine of know-it-alls: Neymar will never win the World Cup, it will be complete and utter European domination of the World Cup three times in a row starting next year. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,898 Posts
fyi, Pelé didn‘t play 2nd division, there was no federal or national championship in Brazil until 1971, due to the distances. the state championships were 1st division. there was a national cup tournament though which Santos won more often than any other team.
I agree, there was no "unified national single top division league" in Brazil the vast majority of Pele's career at Santos, you are right. Brazil didn't have it at the time, it was comprised of 'state championships', and I would love to agree with you but I wouldn't call those disparate leagues "top division" and neither does the International Federation of Football History & Statistics ( IFFHS).

As far as the IFFHS judges and views it, Pele was a "regional top division" player, not a true "national top division" player like Puskas. Hence Pele never won the Golden Ball ever. Puskas won it once in 1953, the "World Soccer Player of the Year" award.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60,232 Posts
the state of São Paulo has 46 million inhabitants now and had 17 millions at Pelés playing time, that‘s more than Hungary, Portugal, Netherlands, Belgium and can be compared with a medium sized European nation. furthermore, that state generated 9 Copa Libertadores (the south american equivalent of Champions league) winners and 8 club world cup winners. not sure why anyone would classify this as some minor regional league.

the „golden ball“ fa só is the most useless award in the history of foci
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,898 Posts
the state of São Paulo has 46 million inhabitants now and had 17 millions at Pelés playing time, that‘s more than Hungary, Portugal, Netherlands, Belgium and can be compared with a medium sized European nation. furthermore, that state generated 9 Copa Libertadores (the south american equivalent of Champions league) winners and 8 club world cup winners. not sure why anyone would classify this as some minor regional league.

the „golden ball“ fa só is the most useless award in the history of foci
I agree Brazil is a big country, there's lots of people in it. Maybe I'm a parrot for the good old know-it-all boys in more conservative austute Europe in the I.F.F.H.S., but their considering Pele a "regional top division" player is technically the right definition, he was and nobody mentioned minor league except to say Puskas was a full "national top division" player not in a broken up league system because of Brazil's sheer size as you say or their immaturity/inability to get it together in one big unified national top division.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60,232 Posts
Spanish primeira division of the 1960s is as much a „regional top league“ as the São Paulo state championship. heck, I even go as far as to say SP campeonato had more quality. Santos, FC SP, Corinthians, Palmeiras, Portuguesa, international top teams while Spain has and had Real and Barça and that‘s pretty much it.

nothing to do with immaturity when you technically in the 1950-60s can‘t organize tournaments where teams would have to travel 3000-5000 km one way and back every weekend. even the USA didn‘t have a national foci league back then, did they? Germany started the Bundesliga in 1963 and that‘s only with a fraction of the distances, until 1962 they had state championships/ regional leagues only.

apart from the state campeonatos there was also the Taça do Brasil, the national cup where the winner of which considered themselves national champions of sorts. also the Rio-São Paulo tournament, the winner of which considered themselves national champions too. quality-wise that‘s about if Spain‘s 1. division and Italys Serie A had a common tournament.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,898 Posts
Scratch that idea that Pele was a 2nd division player, I was wrong there.

I'll go so far as to say Pele was the "greatest top division regional player of all time", but with that said, as a "regional player" solely he never mixed and matched up regularly in a big one league, on a ongoing regular basis, against the other strong powerhouses in other 'state championship' regional leagues.

The 'state championship' league were entities isolated except for rare Cup tournament games, thus he never really faced Brazil's 100% other top talents on a regular basis.

Let's not confuse "regional top division players" with "national top division players" because the latter faces 100% of top talents in a country on a regular basis, the former might face 20% of a nation's top talent due to the autonomous nature of many regional leagues. See my point?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60,232 Posts
as I said before, the SP state alone had more quality and talent than the entire Spain. same goes for the Rio de Janeiro state championship with Flamengo, Fluminense, Botafogo, Vasco da Gama. apart from the respective state championships, there was also the Taça do Brasil i. e the Federal cup and the Rio-São Paulo tournament that later got expanded by teams from the states of Minas Gerais, Paraná and Rio Grande do Sul (then called Roberto Gomes Pedrosa tournament) all of which have 2 international top teams. furthermore, they had the Copa Libertadores and the Clubs world cup. Pelé played with Santos in all of these tournaments and won them all.
9x SP state champion
2x copa libertadores winner
2x clubs world cup winner
5x brasil cup winner
1x roberto gomes pedrosa winner
(note that the brasil cup and rob. gomes pedrosa cups 1959-1970 are considered equivalent to all-brazilian championships)
5x Rio-SãoPaulo winner

now to your obsession with a national league, what‘s the quality improvement there? ok, so to the top teams from RJ, SP, MG, PR, RS you have what, Fortaleza, Recife and Bahia, 3 teams more that‘s pretty much it.
 

·
1st Tier Poster
Joined
·
51,729 Posts
I remember back in my trolling days I called Pele "a regional bush league player".

Then again it isn't completely off the mark... the standard opponents for him in these days were clubs like XV de Piracicaba, Jabaquara, Ferroviária and Noroeste.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60,232 Posts
who would have easily won double-digits against the likes of Elche, Mallorca and Málaga

anyway, no, actually the standard opponents of him these days were Corinthians, FC SP, Botafogo, Flamengo, Cruzeiro, Internacional, Paranaense, Penarol, River Plate etc

"back in your trolling days" lol good one
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47,554 Posts
Cristiano Ronaldo Will Win world cup and euro and CL
Do you mean Euro 2020, world cup 2022 and CL 2020/21? lol

CR7 can go on scoring lots of goals but unless I'm underrating his team mates he is going to win zero of these trophies. The CL depends on the club he will play for in the next season. Juventus? Zero chances to win the CL.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,898 Posts
as I said before, the SP state alone had more quality and talent than the entire Spain. same goes for the Rio de Janeiro state championship with Flamengo, Fluminense, Botafogo, Vasco da Gama. apart from the respective state championships, there was also the Taça do Brasil i. e the Federal cup and the Rio-São Paulo tournament that later got expanded by teams from the states of Minas Gerais, Paraná and Rio Grande do Sul (then called Roberto Gomes Pedrosa tournament) all of which have 2 international top teams. furthermore, they had the Copa Libertadores and the Clubs world cup. Pelé played with Santos in all of these tournaments and won them all.
9x SP state champion
2x copa libertadores winner
2x clubs world cup winner
5x brasil cup winner
1x roberto gomes pedrosa winner
(note that the brasil cup and rob. gomes pedrosa cups 1959-1970 are considered equivalent to all-brazilian championships)
5x Rio-SãoPaulo winner

now to your obsession with a national league, what‘s the quality improvement there? ok, so to the top teams from RJ, SP, MG, PR, RS you have what, Fortaleza, Recife and Bahia, 3 teams more that‘s pretty much it.
You sound like the No. #1 booster of the Brazil team and Pele and I'm the parrot of the I.F.F.H.S. and those venerable experts usually know what they're talking about.

I down know either way whether: "the SP state alone had more quality and talent than the entire Spainface" as you say. Deep down more than skin deep you're the voice of the Brazilian boys. You are the epitome of know-it-all Brazilian Jews or "juice" as you say it. Face it Szov, you're the Brazilian boys endearing ultra-rightwinger 'juice' standard bearer, boy that's a real tough combo to make Guttmann proud.

Trophies make some difference sure when a "top division regional player" does not face in continuous round robin league play the 100% of top talents Brazil had to offer in all their leagues. .

There's again a difference between "regional top division players" and "national top division players" because the latter faces 100% of top talents in a country on a regular basis in round robin play whereas the former might face 20% of a nation's top talent due to the autonomous nature of many regional leagues where talents are separated.

Szov, I tend to trust the International Federation of Football History & Statistics on this one more so than any opinions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60,232 Posts
I don‘t boost anything least not the Brazil team. what I said is that the SP and RJ state championships of 1950-60s weren‘t in any way weaker than the Spanish Primera Division of that era, let‘s not forget who brought Magical Foci to them, as the manager of FC São Paulo, yes you mentioned him, Mighty Gutmann Béla bácsi. what the iihfs dudes think about what‘s regional and what‘s not, I don‘t care, fact is Brazil technically is a federation of 27 states. now you probably don’t consider the national leagues of Uruguay and Argentina „regional“ leagues yet their pool of talent and teams is based on much smaller regions, namely 95% from the respective capital cities and suburbs. much more „regional“ in fact if you axe me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,898 Posts
My attitude toward it is this: I.F.F.H.S accumulated truth, established facts and wisdom > Hungary > about 30 other NT sides > Brazil.

Ever try coaching in Brazil? Guttmann did it swell and great, he was evangelizing missionary wizard from the master football country and 1950s Brazil is sort of an emulating team from the grandness of the Aranycsapat buddyroo.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47,554 Posts
IFFHS clearly make an abuse of the numbers. I rarely read what they write nowadays. I have done it today and lol I have discovered that serie A has been the best league in the world in 2020 according to them. No fucking way but... ok, their numbers tell it so it has to be true!
 
1 - 20 of 36 Posts
Top