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Discussion Starter #1
Chelsea Chasing Two Young Italian Phenomenons
3/4/2005 2:32:00 PM
Italian daily ‘La Gazzetta dello Sport’ is reporting Italy might lose another two important prospects to England as Chelsea are closely tracking two Atalanta starlets.
The club chaired by Roman Abramovich has been active in the past weeks trying to convince Michele Rinaldi and Christian Tiboni to leave small Bergamo for the cosmopolitan English capital.

Rinaldi is a central defender, and is also the captain of the Italian Under 18 team, while Tiboni is a sixteen year old striker who scored ten goals this season despite a flurry of injuries.

Atalanta will have a hard time keeping these two products of their impressive youth academy as they can’t compete with Chelsea’s spending power.

Already earlier this season the Serie A minnows had a hard time convincing their young keeper Conisgli to reject offers coming from Arsenal, who last year ‘poached’ 17 year old Lupoli from right under Parma’s nose.

Rinaldi and Tiboni are also being eyed by England’s other three giants, Arsenal, Liverpool, and Manchester United.


goal.com

Italy must allow youngsters sign a professional contract before they are 18. I don't want another Lupoli or Rossi happening ever again. It disgusts me. Good luck Atalanta.
 

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good topic,
it is disgraceful, but maybe it's not a problem that just Italy should deal with alone. Spanish clubs have had this happen also, and if it goes on in countries like these that are rich in football terms, who knows how much worse it could be in less wealthy nations. At least these cases in Italy and Spain are high profile. A lot of young players from elsewhere aren't so lucky, particularly if things don't work out.

English clubs are signing very young players at a disturbing rate and instead of attempting to stop them UEFA just passes laws which encourage teams to hoard young talent in their youth teams even more. in some instances this practice must effectively be considered as people trafficking. Wasn't FIFA going to limit the extent to which clubs could deal internationally in U18 players?
 

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if they make it through and become starting players for chelsea, i personally dont mind. I really believe that italian players need to be more spread across europe. If we had more players in spain and england, it does give some diversity for the italian coach.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Why should talented Italian player play in a place other than Italy????? Why should young Italian players be developed outside of Italy????? Diversity? What does diversity bring when those clubs are getting poached of their future. Atalanta depends on their youth team to give them players so they can be competitive. They invest a lot of money so that they can stay alive. What are Parma going to do with Lupoli and Rossi gone. Those two could have been serious goal scorers for them but instead they are playing for some foreign giant with the club getting nothing. It disgusts me.
 

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CUG said:
I really believe that italian players need to be more spread across europe. If we had more players in spain and england, it does give some diversity for the italian coach.

Italian CT's have a habit of not convoking players in other leagues though. No, Italian players maybe should move away for more space to play. Certainly there is no room for them in the big clubs.
 

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Mikey said:
Italian CT's have a habit of not convoking players in other leagues though. No, Italian players maybe should move away for more space to play. Certainly there is no room for them in the big clubs.

the main reason for the coaches no convoking these abroad players is because the abroad players are generally never good enough. This is why i believe its important to have some good quality players in spain and england who are good enough to fight for starting positions in the NT.


Zangari_Italia, what is the difference if chelsea or a club like juve poach these players. How many good young prospects have been paoched by the likes of juve, inter and milan and just wasted on bench or loaned out for many seasons.

Also, i think national teams such as brazil, argentina and france are ahead of the likes of italy and england because their squads generally have players from many leagues instead of just one or two.

That's my opinion anyway.
 

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All Italian players should play in Italy, If they aren't good enough for A, let them play in B or C, ITALY is one of the most important football nations in the world with one of the greatest leagues, why would they go abroad? Most players don't even want to, unless they are 35.

This rule that EPL clubs can sign contracts with players under 18 is disgusting and unfair. Either way they shouldn't or other should be able too. Afterall, the club that produced them are the losers in any way, what's th point of trying to have a good youth academy if you're going to lose the players before they turn 18....for free?. If the players go, they are traitors that aren't worth much in my eyes. You don't abandon your mother club just like that, If they were modest players they wouldn't go. Playing in Arsenal's, Man U's or Chelsea's youth squad isn't more glamourous, only that they can earn some more money cause of the contract they could sign. Most youth professionals ends up being disasters anyway. They win nothing from that expereince, nothing then fast dirty money.

I agree with the fact that players from France, Argentina, Brazil and so on will benefit on playing abroad. Not cause their domestic league's are bad, but because they have loads of good players and if everyone should be stuck in their home country alot of them wouldn't play. France got a great pool of players to chose from just because there are loads of Frenchmen everywhere in Europe. Our league however, isn't like the French, we're one of the greatest and that's why I want the players to stay here. It's our coaches responsability to let the youngsters play and not to sign complement foreigners like Gresko and Pablo Garcia instead. Italy was good all the way through the 60's through the 90's and that isn't a coincidence. Back then, no-one played abroad and we still delivered internationally, patience and we will be back on our own ;). No need to send our players abroad, the italian schools are the best.
 

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At the end of the day, these guys are free to sign for whoever they want to. If Cheslea or Arsenal are offering them better contracts than Atalanta or Parma, then they should go where the grass is greener.

I find the sense of the outrage and injustice in this thread misplaced, each player has to determine what is best for him. If that includes leaving Italy for England then so be it.
 

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nasty nick said:
Most youth professionals ends up being disasters anyway. They win nothing from that expereince, nothing then fast dirty money.
Yeah and this might be the reason they do chose the money. They knew they might not go all the way so they might as well make some money of it right away.

I'm not saying it's right, but I imagine that's how lots of them think.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Nero said:
At the end of the day, these guys are free to sign for whoever they want to. If Cheslea or Arsenal are offering them better contracts than Atalanta or Parma, then they should go where the grass is greener.

I find the sense of the outrage and injustice in this thread misplaced, each player has to determine what is best for him. If that includes leaving Italy for England then so be it.
In Canada there are young hockey players that get to much money to soon and so instead of working at hockey and pushing themselves they drive around in there flashy car. To much money to soon or the ego boost that these players get by signing for a big club is sometimes harmful. They don't learn the lesson of humility, they don't learn the value of hard work (many exceptions) that no one is going to give you anything and you have to earn it. But those big clubs do give them something. Nero since when did football just be about money? Why should 16-18 year olds have to make 56-130 thousand? They don't need it.

And again where does that leave us, if foreign clubs and poached all our young prospects? It leaves us with no little teams that could even potentially challenge for the Scudetto or pretty much a Champions League spot. They don't have the money from the sales of those players at a reasonable price. Those clubs won't have that source of income and they will become poorer and poorer. And once they realize that all their talent is going to be poached any way then why do they have an incentive to pay to train the next generation of Italian players? They won't have as much money to do what they do allready and they will have less money and less incentive to do it in the first place.

Hasuni I don't believe that all the players that big clubs have that don't make the team aren't good enough just that perhaps they weren't given enough oppourtunities to grow as a player. Clubs expect finished products they don't like growing pains. If Juventus kept hold of Moretti I am really convinced that eventually he would have become a rock for them. Bad example I know. I do realize that some just aren't talented enough but also some just don't get the chances they need.

CUG I don't like the big clubs poaching either I condem it almost as much as foreign clubs stealing the youth ot Italy. That is why professional contracts for teams are so important and should be done.

Latsly Italy is Italy and should be a place for a core of Italians to play in. Those Italians should be complimented by some truly great foreign players. Not some crappy players but players who are truly great. I was disgusted when Inter played with only Toldo in a the team one game. I was disgusted when Arsenal was the first team not to field an english player. It is sad.

The most important thing is that more Italian clubs give a chance to the youth and be more patient and give more oppourtunities.
 

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Zangari_Italia said:
In Canada there are young hockey players that get to much money to soon and so instead of working at hockey and pushing themselves they drive around in there flashy car. To much money to soon or the ego boost that these players get by signing for a big club is sometimes harmful. They don't learn the lesson of humility, they don't learn the value of hard work (many exceptions) that no one is going to give you anything and you have to earn it. But those big clubs do give them something. Nero since when did football just be about money? Why should 16-18 year olds have to make 56-130 thousand? They don't need it.
Football is big business now, as is any sport that has a substantial following. It's just the way things are.

I agree that there are many harmful effects to getting the kind of moolah that these guys get at such a tender age, but who are any of us to dictate or determine what is morally acceptable for 16-18 year olds to earn? Players in the NFL, MLB and NBA get even more obscene amounts of money at that age, because everyone wants to have the most gifted players who are financially possible for them. And clubs will continue to vy for the most talented players and flash as much money as they deem fit to obtain them. One could argue that it's morally reprehensible for people that play sports professionally to make so much more than people in much more important professions such as doctors, nurses, etc.

You also have to remember that their careers are shorter than for people in normal professions, and modern football players play the game professionally with the view to set themselves up for a life time. And one does that by getting the best possible deal for oneself as soon as possible.

And again where does that leave us, if foreign clubs and poached all our young prospects? It leaves us with no little teams that could even potentially challenge for the Scudetto or pretty much a Champions League spot. They don't have the money from the sales of those players at a reasonable price. Those clubs won't have that source of income and they will become poorer and poorer. And once they realize that all their talent is going to be poached any way then why do they have an incentive to pay to train the next generation of Italian players? They won't have as much money to do what they do allready and they will have less money and less incentive to do it in the first place.
The smaller clubs have to fend for themselves, i agree with you that they should push to be able to sign professional contracts with players at 16, if only for them not to be disadvantaged. At the same time, clubs will not sign players they don't think are good enough and only offer deals to those who they think are, that is their right. Just as it's the right for players to sign for the club that is offering them the most.

At the end of the day, everyone is an economic agent and acting out of self-interest.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Economy is a what is killing this beautiful game or if not killing taking away from the beauty of it. If players are just worried about making the money now because they might not down the road then they might be prudent in an economic sense but there is so much more to soccer than money and you can get so much out of soccer than just money. Everything is money, everyone is a professional, there is passion but less of it.

If Roberto Baggio was only a professional would he have taken that penalty against Fiorentina for Juventus? Yes, he would have and there would have been one less chapter and one less facet of that great man. We need more players like Roberto not only in skill but in class and people who really care about the game not just the money they can make from it. Money motivated a lot where Baggio played in many ways but always at the centre, at the core it was just about football. Young players shouldn't just be motivated by money and if they leave those small clubs that need them it hurts the game in the end.

We agree on a lot of things and I think your heart is close to mine I'm very passionate about soccer and a lot of very left wing principles and when Chelsea or Arsenal or someone takes players that they have no right to it despite it being the way it works makes me very angry inside.
 

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i dont see Serie A being the best league. I think Spain and England can match it and its been a huge debate for many years now in these forums. They are just different.

What i believe is that if young prospects from italy want to join big english teams or spanish teams, its welcomed because playing for chelsea or barcelona is better than playing for bologna or atalanta.

everyone thinks differently im sure...but i think its time good italian players are seen in the 3 big leagues instead of just serie A. Im sick of seeing 35 year old italians who cant cut it in serie A join low english teams...its too late then.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I personally want those talented Italian in Serie A instead of some foreign giant so as keep Serie A competitive with the possibility of a small team winning the Scudetto everyonce in a while. I honestly think that Atalanta if they keep hold of all of their talent for a couple of years could make an effective run to the Scudetto. That won't happen of course because they sell all the time that is how they do things.
 

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Hasuni said:
Yeah and this might be the reason they do chose the money. They knew they might not go all the way so they might as well make some money of it right away.

I'm not saying it's right, but I imagine that's how lots of them think.
About Rossi that is definitely not the case. He has been superb for the reserves, he has 10 goals in 14 games as a support striker. Fergie just 2 days ago, called him the most cool striker around the box at United. Keano also praised him as well. He is getting promoted to the 1st team next season :) .

Also as far as I am aware, Lupoli is doing great at the Arse as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Yes Rossi and Lupoli are going to be great players, but I'll always have a sour taste in my mouth when I cheer for them.
 

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Zangari_Italia said:
I personally want those talented Italian in Serie A instead of some foreign giant so as keep Serie A competitive with the possibility of a small team winning the Scudetto everyonce in a while. I honestly think that Atalanta if they keep hold of all of their talent for a couple of years could make an effective run to the Scudetto. That won't happen of course because they sell all the time that is how they do things.
no small team is going to win the scudetto. the past 12 years has seen lazio and roma win it once, and the rest is shared by juve and milan. And bedsides, small clubs with young talent need to sell for funds.

It would be nice to the scudetto shared by smaller teams as well, but its more of a dream than anything.

like i said, these young stars get picked up by juve or milan, only for them to be loaned out as the likes of Moggi prefers spending and giving chances to other teams abroad young prospects.
 

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CUG, you're exactly right, no small team can possibly win the scudetto, that's why some people want changes to be made.

if big clubs, foreign or Italian can go around hoarding the pick of the very young players going around, it doesn't help anybody. it often stunts the development of these players by putting them in a position where they either can't possibly get a game for the big team they sign for, or become involved in a long sequence of loan deals which don't allow them to get established in a side elsewhere.

maybe the rules could be changed so that clubs can't deal in very young prospects, this way clubs who are serious about developing young players for one reason or another (Atalanta is a great example) can reap the rewards from their efforts by fielding a competitve side based on homegrown talent or at least gaining reasonable financial compensation for their services to invest on other players, once their young players have reached a certain age (and transfer value, potentially).

This would help to level the playing field and shake the tree up a bit, as well as encouraging clubs to develop their own players. But, of course, i can see why a Juventino wouldn't want any changes to the status quo. ;)
 

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nasty nick said:
All Italian players should play in Italy, If they aren't good enough for A, let them play in B or C, ITALY is one of the most important football nations in the world with one of the greatest leagues, why would they go abroad? Most players don't even want to, unless they are 35.
Please..... this is entirely rediculous. Any player should be free to play in the league and country of his own choosing. Italians no different from anyone else.

What matters here is that different sets of rules unfairly harms Italian (and Spanish etc.) football vis-a-vis English football.

The rules are what they are, and it's quite obvious that a player like Lupoli to take an example would be more interested in going to Arsenals reverred youth system/reserves than playing for Parma's reserves. More so when he gets alot more money that way.

It's not the players or clubs that are to blame. It's the national federations and FIFA/UEFA for not creating fair competition.
 

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or maybe a rule should be that each team should have to have at least 3 players coming from their youth teams in their squad. maybe force clubs, especially the big clubs of each league, to actually look at their young talents instead of others.
 
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