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Guys, here in Brazil we've been discussing that best formula for the Brazilian Championship for quite some time. In my mind just because the "Pontos Corridos" work in Europe not necessarily means that will work here. I've been thinking about these matter and now i've decided to start a campaing on the Internet for a new formula for 2006. 95% of the people that I talked about seems to agree with me.

Feel free to pass along in foruns and friends around Brazil

Ivan Sa Fortes Clavery
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BRASILEIRÃO 2006

Pontos Corridos ou Playoffs?

A maior discussão atualmente fora dos campos de jogo é sobre qual seria a fórmula ideal para os competições futebolísticas no país. Uns defendem os pontos corridos, outros as competições com playoffs como ocorria até 2002. O principal problema que existe nessas discussões é que os defensores de cada idéia se limitam a vangloriar os pontos positivos de sua fórmula preferida e denegrir a outra fórmula. Vamos tentar avaliar os pontos positivos e negativos de cada fórmula e tentar chegar a um veredicto:

Pontos Corridos:

– É a fórmula na qual todos jogam contra todos, preferencialmente em turno e returno, e o campeão aparece de maneira simples: quem acabar com mais pontos é o campeão.

- Os Pontos Corridos tem como principal defesa a idéia de que o melhor time vence o campeonato.

- Outro interessante aspecto defendido é que nos Pontos Corridos os erros de arbitragem acabam não definindo campeonatos na grande maioria das vezes.

-- Outro ponto interessante não muito discutido é que num campeonato de pontos corridos com ida e volta clássicos como Vasco x Flamengo, Corinthians x Palmeiras e muitos outros acabariam ocorrendo necessariamente duas vezes no Brasileirão.

Esses são pontos realmente interessantes para a defesa de um campeonato em Pontos Corridos, mas vejamos alguns pontos criticados por quem não gosta da idéia:

-A idéia de que o time que acaba com mais pontos é melhor é discutível. Com certeza mesmo podemos qualifica-lo como o time mais regular, não necessariamente o melhor. Afinal no esporte a qualidade de saber vencer no momento decisivo é muito importante para definirmos o melhor. Assim é na maioria das competições mais importantes do mundo. Copa do Mundo, NBA, Olímpiadas, todos definidos basicamente em jogos, partidas, competições decisivas.

-O exemplo mais comum para defender os pontos corridos são os nacionais europeus. Lá os campeonatos já estão inseridos na cultura e na história desses países, mas não é verdade que a Europa abomine as finais ou as grandes decisões. Talvez a competição européia mais importante não ocorra por Pontos Corridos por falta de tempo, mas a Champions League é um sucesso, e a grande final em um jogo só um evento só comparado em termos clubísticos ao Super Bowl do futebol americano.

-Os pontos corridos podem ser muito interessantes quando existem times disputando rebaixamento, vagas para competições internacionais e o título. Mas em alguns anos um time abre muita vantagem cedo e o campeonato acaba decidido pela posição mais importante, a primeira, rápido demais. Some a isso que a zona do marasmo (times que ficam no bloco intermediário) nos Pontos Corridos é maior.

PLAYOFFS:

--A grande e principal defesa do Mata-Mata é a emoção, os estádios cheios, o espetáculo. Defensores das finais dizem que no futebol, a emoção deve estar acima da razão.

--Outra defesa é que um time campeão deve ser um time que não treme em decisões.

É difícil contrariar a necessidade do espetáculo e da emoção no futebol mas analisaremos alguns pontos normalmentes criticados desse formato:

--No esquema de playoffs usado anteriormente no Brasileirão alguns times de campanha consideravelmente inferior aos líderes disputavam as fases finais com quase igualdade de condições.

--Os playoffs no Brasil acabam levando a uma fase principal com todos os times com duração muito pequena. E as finais levavam tempo demais. Por exemplo, num campeonato brasileiro com 20 times (o número ideal) a principal fase teria apenas 19 jogos, número inviável.

PROPOSTA CAMPEONATO BRASILEIRO 2006 – A GRANDE FINAL:
Avaliando todos esses aspectos percebemos que ambas as fórmulas mais defendidas por dirigentes, torcedores, jogadores, técnicos e jornalistas têm algumas falhas muito significativas. Seria possível um campeonato que preservasse o melhor de ambas as idéias e tentasse atenuar os aspectos negativos de cada fórmula?

Para divulgação melhor da proposta o chamaremos de CAMPEONATO BRASILEIRO – A GRANDE FINAL, veremos agora o porquê:

Principais Pontos da Proposta:

--20 times
--Dois Turnos. Ida e Volta. 19 rodadas por turno.
--No final do primeiro turno a pontuação zeraria. Os campeões de primeiro e segundo turno se enfrentariam numa Grande Final.
--Se um time ganhasse os dois turnos seria declarado campeão. Num caso desses, que ocorreria provavelmente com pouca frequência se avaliarmos os campeonatos brasileiros anteriores, indiscutivelmente o campeão seria o melhor do país.

Esse formato seria simples, justo e emocionante. Levaria a uma disputa intensa por praticamente todos os times por todas as rodadas do campeonato. Com um time não tendo suas chances de ser campeão esgotadas já na metade do campeonato.

A grande final seria um atrativo, que se bem explorado, poderia ganhar proporções de um enorme evento esportivo e comercial até em níveis internacionais.

Os melhores dois times do Brasil se enfrentariam na Grande Final na maioria dos campeonatos. Seria algo muito parecido com o jogo extra que ocorre na Itália se dois times acabam empatados no final do Campeonato Italiano.

As idéias principais do Brasileirão 2006 são as já apresentadas acima. Idéias e sugestões para rebaixamento e classificações para competições sulamericanas podem ser debatidas, o sugerido seria a utilização da classificação somada de Turno e Returno. Ou seja, só se zeraria a pontuação no Returno para a disputa do título! Assim a justiça em nenhuma maneira seria deixada de lado.

Com isso não acontecerá de clubes deixarem de dar o máximo em um dos turnos. Quem bobear num dos turnos pode acabar brigando pra não cair ou perdendo a vaga pra libertadores.

A repetição de fórmula é realmente necessária e a mudança mais uma vez de formato provavelmente trará críticos. Entretanto, mais importante do que repetir a fórmula para a competição esportiva mais importante do país é necessário achar uma fórmula definitiva que agrade a quase todos para o bem dos clubes, torcedores e televisão. O que não é o que ocorre hoje. Vamos mudar isso!

Ivan Sá Fortes Clavery
 

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Oh, no. Why complicated with one extra final! Stop this.
Would you find funny seeing the Cruzeiro team of 2003 losing their title because such extra finals or something ?
Play-offs reward teams who do not work their best, give lots of oportunity for the appeal of traditions and make the referee's mistakes more decisive.

-A idéia de que o time que acaba com mais pontos é melhor é discutível. Com certeza mesmo podemos qualifica-lo como o time mais regular, não necessariamente o melhor.
No. It is a Regular team and the best team. Last year Atletico was very regular, but among the worst teams. Regularity is keeping the same level all the time, the champion is the one that keep the best level all the time. Get relegated those who are regular also and keep the worst level all the time.

Afinal no esporte a qualidade de saber vencer no momento decisivo é muito importante para definirmos o melhor.
No, it is not. To know the best we must seen one that can win almost everytime. That is the best. And it is ridiculous to say in the "Pontos corridos" there is no such decisive momments, last year there was clearly this evidence. Even Cruzeiro in 2003, who won in the decisive momments also - the difference is that they are more aware to identify those momments.

Copa do Mundo, NBA, Olímpiadas, todos definidos basicamente em jogos, partidas, competições decisivas.
They are either short-competitions or another sports. Not all are however are decided this way and they should not. F1 for example, any one doubt Schumaherr is both the best and most regular ?

-O exemplo mais comum para defender os pontos corridos são os nacionais europeus. Lá os campeonatos já estão inseridos na cultura e na história desses países, mas não é verdade que a Europa abomine as finais ou as grandes decisões.
This is silly since you used NBA, another foregein competition. But it is also false that the mata-mata is in our traditions. Our first competitions in the 30,40 had several formulas the "Ponto-corrido" among those. And this is the history that we write backwards and nothign more suitable for a momment that we demand a change in our footbal, of structures that also are in you history, to change the formulas and the constant formulas changing they promoted.

-Os pontos corridos podem ser muito interessantes quando existem times disputando rebaixamento, vagas para competições internacionais e o título. Mas em alguns anos um time abre muita vantagem cedo e o campeonato acaba decidido pela posição mais importante, a primeira, rápido demais.
This point used to attack the "Pontos-corridos" is a big fallacy. In the play-offs Several teams do not play, they end in a limbo watching others doing the fallacy and the marasmo"s zone happens as well. Last year in the last round only 1 game had not a result that could change relegation/championship and even in 2003 only 3 or 4 games in the last rounds are in this way. And our competition with is giving more and more spots to international competitions, this problem is no longer a problem.

--A grande e principal defesa do Mata-Mata é a emoção, os estádios cheios, o espetáculo. Defensores das finais dizem que no futebol, a emoção deve estar acima da razão.
They often lack reason: O Paulista this year showed a public bigger than years with play-offs. They only use this excuse becuase they can this way hide their own incopetence to deal with real problems that cause the public to avoid stadiums: quality of teams, price, confort, security. And emotion ? Last year there was emotion. Emotion and public presence can be bigger or smaller in both systems, there is no difference at all.

--Outra defesa é que um time campeão deve ser um time que não treme em decisões.
Which is another lie. Pontos-corridos had decisions and finally : Play-offs give the teams who do not want to play the decision the chance to play for a draw, etc.

Esse formato seria simples, justo e emocionante. Levaria a uma disputa intensa por praticamente todos os times por todas as rodadas do campeonato. Com um time não tendo suas chances de ser campeão esgotadas já na metade do campeonato.
It is not new, have been used before and frankly...A team could make 0 points in the first turn and end just one point of another team, the champions of the previous competition, play the final and won. We would have a team that in the geral competition was in the middle table to be the champion, that is ridiculous.
And happened before. (For example, in 1987 Cruzeiro lost to Inter, with 9 points of lead, exactly because Inter was the champion of first turn, did nothing in the second, they are somewhere like the 7th place of the competition. That year by the way, the champion flamengo was the third place of the competition, Cruzeiro and Atletico with vantages, when it was just 2 points the victory, in the house of 8, 9 point to flamengo did not even played the final).
Then the format is not fair as claimed. I have no idea if there is emotion because unlike you claimed in the middle of the second turn there would be already teams not finghting for the title of the turn and emotion ? We can have emotion anywhere. And of course, It is simple if compared with other formulas. With pontos corridos this is complex like quantic physics to a student of law.

fórmula para a competição esportiva mais importante do país é necessário achar uma fórmula definitiva que agrade a quase todos para o bem dos clubes, torcedores e televisão.
This Formula was found, Pontos Corridos.
 

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In late 2003 (when Cruzeiro was on its way to be crowned Brasilian champion of that year) I posted this article, which I found in IstoÉ magazine, written by Ricardo Freire. I thought it was relevant to this discussion, so I'm posting it again. Hope you like it. ;)

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The Home of Playoffs
--By Ricardo Freire

Brazil is going through a very dangerous moment. Believe it or not, we’re currently witnessing the final moments of a Brazilian championship where it’s absolutely guaranteed that the trophy will go to the best team. Can you believe that? The best will win! No ifs, buts or maybes! Of course, there is no chance for such a preposterous concept to work in Brazil.

Can you believe it? This insane format where all teams play against all teams, once in their own stadiums and once on their opponents’ stadiums, ends up benefitting the most efficient and constant team. But that’s too easy! All you gotta do is prepare yourself better and play well in all games. Even I can build a champion team that way.

CBF's officials obviously underestimate the effects such an outrageous tournament can have over the rest of the nation. If we continue with this league system, soon our children will believe that to conquer something, all it takes is serious preparation and constant hard work. Unacceptable!

That's why god and everyone else, plus the Flamengo and Corinthians fans (poor lost souls) are demanding the return of the playoffs next year. (In case you don’t follow football and still made it to this paragraph, I'll explain: On the system with playoffs, you forget the result of the 1st stage of the championship and the eight top-placed teams start all over again from zero, facing each other in knockout matches, until the last team standing is the champion. Last year the team that finished in 8th place was the champion, and the first-placed team was eliminated even before the final.) :wth:

Now, the playoffs… THAT’S a format appropriate for the climate, topography and atmospheric conditions we have in Brazil. On a format with playoffs, any team – yours, for example – can waste time during the whole tournament, choose which games to take seriously and which games don’t matter so much, and even get close to the abyss one or twice. You just need to play well in the end (when "serious" teams will be tired from working hard all year), just enough to reach the top 8, and presto: The unimpressive team from the first stage can become champion through the miracle of playoffs. It’s such a 100% Brazilian system that we should register and trademark it, like Cachaça or Cupuaçu.

The league system, on the other hand, creates no heroes. At least not on our shores. Just look at Cruzeiro. Cruzeiro used to be a nice team – until last year. This year they dared to be vastly superior to all the other teams. They committed the gaffe of distancing themselves from the competition; at one point there were 12 points between Cruzeiro and the second-placed team!! Now everyone resents Cruzeiro, because they ruined the championship. "It became predictable", the critics from Rio and São Paulo say. If they could hire a soap opera writer to pen the final days of the league, on the last rounds Cruzeiro would crumble and collect successive defeats, paying for all the suffering inflicted on all the “nice” incompetent teams. See? That’s what you get for working so hard and making us look bad!

No, the league system is not for us. We like playoffs. We’re the country of the second chances; of the goal scored in extra time. If the best team is going to win anyway, what’s the point of having a championship? :stress:
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we already have the cup for the "playoff" format (this is so nba)
what's the use of having a league which uses the same system?
and this is coming from a grêmio supporter (most of us would choose a cup-like tournament)
 

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ivanclavery said:
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BRASILEIRÃO 2006

Pontos Corridos ou Playoffs?

Pontos corridos or the league format is vastly superior.

Playoffs never more!

(Now, Ivan, I am sorry but I have to do it: I cannot help by mentioning that as a Vascaino you are right in being against the league format, because unless there is a big element of luck, your team has absolutely no frigging chance of winning the Brasileiro this year, the next, maybe for the next decade. By the way, good luck in Serie B in 2006!)
 

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whoa. nasty :devil:
 

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Wow
Some nice argumenting for the league system
and I´m speachless and just say that
I hope that it will remain
and see a great potential
in the change of mindset and organizing
Great potential for Brazil and Brazilian football

Another thing
I also hope that good football tradition
will prevail and not money
 

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Well although playoffs have their charm and I kind of missed them in the last couple of seasons, I guess the league format is indeed more fair. Even great NBA legend Charles Barkley said that the NBA regular season is played just in order to earn money from people paying the tickets, the serious competition then begins in the play-offs. Meaning that if you have a play-off, all the competition you had before, is more or less irrelevant.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Some good arguments here.

I shouldn't have expected different opinions since brazilians users of xtratime foruns tend to like national europeans competitions.

Questions:
- Is Champions League unfair?
- Argentina won the South America qualifier in "pontos corridos" easily in 2002. Brazil easily won the World Cup in "Finais". Argentina was CLEARLY better in 2002?
- If you guys were Chelsea fans, would you guys follow with more enthusiasm the Champions League or Premier League (virtually won by Chelsea since February or even earlier?) Reagardless of the status of the competition...

Important Point: I don't know if all of u guys who reply read all my text but i'm not defending "Playoffs"... I'm defending a final between the 2 best teams. Between the "Playoffs" used in Brazil in late 90's and "Pontos Corridos" i don't have a favorite.

Ivan
 

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ivanclavery said:
- Argentina won the South America qualifier in "pontos corridos" easily in 2002. Brazil easily won the World Cup in "Finais". Argentina was CLEARLY better in 2002?
No, they were better in 2001, when the Qualifiers took place. They peaked at the wrong time, we peaked at the right time. Simple.
 

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ivanclavery said:
- Is Champions League unfair?
Sometimes it is, yes. The playoff system opens the door to upsets and surprises, while the league system closes that door. The team with the most complete roster and tactical regularity always has a solid advantage in the league format, while playoffs can throw out the best team because of one single bad game.

Once Caldas isn't and never was the best team in South America, but they successfully clawed their way through the Libertadores playoffs and ended up winning the trophy over teams that had superior squads and played better football. It just happens in playoffs – but NOT in the league system. Last year's Once Caldas would struggle to even qualify to the Libertadores, if they played the Brasilian league.
 

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ivanclavery said:
Questions:
- Is Champions League unfair?
- Argentina won the South America qualifier in "pontos corridos" easily in 2002. Brazil easily won the World Cup in "Finais". Argentina was CLEARLY better in 2002?
- If you guys were Chelsea fans, would you guys follow with more enthusiasm the Champions League or Premier League (virtually won by Chelsea since February or even earlier?) Reagardless of the status of the competition...
A1. Yes, sometimes the Champions League may be unfair; e.g. Porto last year. League format would be definitively superior, but there are not enough dates (even a Vascaino can figure that one out!)

A2. Garr answered that already.

A3. If I were Chelsea fan, I would follow the EPL with a lot LESS enthusiasm if there were playoffs. With playoffs, all Chelsea's supremacy thus far this season would be worth little.
 

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Garrincha said:
Once Caldas isn't and never was the best team in South America, but they successfully clawed their way through the Libertadores playoffs and ended up winning the trophy over teams that had superior squads and played better football. It just happens in playoffs – but NOT in the league system. Last year's Once Caldas would struggle to even qualify to the Libertadores, if they played the Brasilian league.

I disagree with last statement on Once Caldas. I watch Colombian soccer now and then, and their defensive system is superb, better than any Brazilian defense nowadays. At the Brasileiro, with a little fixing in their attack, they would be a force to reckon with.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
When the most important thing to justify a system for a sport is if it is fair or unfair, I think people alredy forgot that sport is a game...And a game of passion, not a mathematical matter.
 

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- Is Champions League unfair?
Not that much, although not always the best team will won it, they know the routine beforehand. But the Champions League format have nothing to do with the format that mixed league and play-offs. It is a cup format, you do not play and give all for months to lose it in two weeks to a team that was vastly inferior to you when facing the same adversaries... That is unfair, very unfair, unlike the much inferior unfairness of CL.

- Argentina won the South America qualifier in "pontos corridos" easily in 2002. Brazil easily won the World Cup in "Finais". Argentina was CLEARLY better in 2002?
When the most important thing to justify a system for a sport is if it is fair or unfair, I think people alredy forgot that sport is a game...And a game of passion, not a mathematical matter.
Justice and fairness can be passionate. And you must forgot, a sport is where the best won, and - nothing to do with fair and not - the pontos corridos select the best. Other systems select not.

Attack the post, not the poster...
although Bordon remark is really not correct - there is a reason to cause this: Minas Gerais have only two national league titles. Atletico had one of the best teams in the history if this country in the 80's. But the power of MG when compared to SP and RJ (mostly) is ridiculous. Because the various formats with play-offs helping inferior teams helped it. Players are called to the National Team because they have the national title, players from Minas - Genius like Nelinho, Joaozinho, Cerezo, Reinaldo, Eder, Luizinho suffered a lot to get there because they only won "Mineiros" - Those giants have not a title league despite their performance and domination in the field. Atletico of Eder, Cerezo and Reinaldo was in the same level of Flamengo of Zico, they direct confrontations was always even, one winning in Rio, other in Belo Horizonte. But when people talk about great teams in the 80's some will remember Atletico in the final place of the list. When one list the great players of Brazil, Reinaldo disapers. If one remember his qualities, his skills much superior to Romario, there is people who will claim this is insanity. Cerezo was labeled as a loser, Eder in the first chance given disapered from the National team, even if in 10 years he still, even fat, able to carry a team in his back. Luizinho then, when he got more experience and became much better, he was gone. All because they have not the league title to hold, to be remembered and they lost it to several inferior teams , that in one single game have been able to won, sometimes because of extra-field factors (which explains but not justify the bitter remark about Vasco, but please just move it) had huge influences. Fairness is something very important in the sport, it is justice, sacred.
 

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Bordon is gone! said:
I disagree with last statement on Once Caldas. I watch Colombian soccer now and then, and their defensive system is superb, better than any Brazilian defense nowadays. At the Brasileiro, with a little fixing in their attack, they would be a force to reckon with.
I'm not underrating their defensive system (which was undeniably efficient), even though I don't really follow Colombian domestic football... but without that improvement in their attack that you mentioned, I still think they would struggle in the Brasileiro.
 

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ivanclavery said:
When the most important thing to justify a system for a sport is if it is fair or unfair, I think people alredy forgot that sport is a game...And a game of passion, not a mathematical matter.
The saying is "may the best win" (E que venca o melhor)...

What you are proposing is that playoffs are more desirable because... they look more like a game of chance! :rolleyes: That is as absurd an argument as I can imagine, but like I said, if the star of one's team are Romario at 40, one better wish soccer were more like roulette :howler:
 

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I am all for pontos corridos

Well, it bring forth stable and strong teams which can endure the marathon which is the brazilerao. It is better for football, because when you have a mata-mata you often use some methods which are anti football, look at the CL and beware

Somebody has said that we have the Cup for this, so the teams which are not strong or have no infrastructure for the marathon can have chance to win that kind of trophy, and reach the Libertadores

Seria B is still played with 2 steps of play - off and I am not sure that it is the best way to elect the ascending teams to serie A

Even the Paulista did it this year without play offs and it was less dramatic than last year but maybe it gives the teams more time to dedicate to the cup and the preparation for the Brazilerao

In the current system of puntos corridos evey team has the opportunity to play at home and away, while in the previous system it was sheer luck if a team played away or home. It was more of a lottery .

In a system of mata-mata and play off, some random factors have more influence like bad arbitrage, injuries etc. On the other hand, can anybody deny the quality of Cruzeiro 2003 or Santos 2004? Stable teams who
demonstrated a great stamina and quality

This year it will be a little shorter as the number of the teams is decreased/

Let us hope that we wil see an interesting competition and more concordance with the NT so the convocations will not damage some teams more than others

ANd last but not least, anybody knows a link on line to see the Brazilerao as my cable company decided to transmit the Argies instead :cry:

I have been used to follow my team using the radio, but still, to SEE would be nice

Globo has some plan at a very reasonable price that even i can afford, but alas... They demand to have a Brazilian identity number even if they say it is meant to be for foreigners

Can anybody help with this??
 
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