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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Why couldn't Spain beat Norway? And why was there such problems routing the slovenians? After watching closely and reading some opinions i think its fair enough to say that England and Spain has something in common- untactical bosses.

Every player has a position at the field. But there is no consistensy over the plays, Camacho wants the individuals to come up with their own stuff. You see Guardiola having a hard time and the attackers have trouble getting the ball.
Its a HELL to watch such talented players as Raul, Alfonso ,Guardiola and Mendieta not being used to their very high potential.

Camacho is the opposite of former coach Javier Clemente. He had the tactics bit sorted out but maybe the individual quality wasnt high enough (at least not as high as now!)

Maybe Camacho should have a assistent to help him out with this part. But im not sure that 2 managers are one too much or not..

How do you feel about Spains "poor" EURO2000, didnt it upset you to see these stars playing not like they should? The Norway match was a complete disaster....

But still, thanks to Spains SUPERIOUR individual skill we came really far- but if everything would have been sorted out maybe spain would progress to the last one.

Real&Barcafan
 
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R&B- I'll try to respond to particular points rather than ramble. :D

1/ You are very right that Camacho and Clemente are opposites in many respects. One of the things that do binds them is their "I don't give a f--k" attitude about non-footballers' (ie the press) opinions. In regards to football, Clemente favored a very defensive style of play (like the Italians). Camacho likes to see an all out attack.

2/Many people will disagree with me but I think the loss to Norway was three-fold (and it kills me to make excuses) in that the team probably was very nervous (the weakest of my defenses), Spain was *much* shorter than Norway and they tried to take full advantage in the air and finally a stupid move on the keeper's part.

3/ Now that the anger of losing to France has subsided and I analayze it, I am not angry. Spain never said they were favorites or going to win. That was the press and fans. I don't agree with a lot of his choices but it cannot be denied that a lot of their players were exhausted. Maybe the conditioning was not up to par, but right after the CL, the RM and Valencia players went straight to Valencia to train. I don't know that Camacho can take all the blame for conditioning. How conditioned can an exhausted player get?
Let's also be honest, putting Mori in the line-up would most likely not have changed much in the way of results. Oponents would have recognized the power of their tandem and tried to shut them down. Look at Raul....did you ever see him with less than 3 other players on him?

Camacho has potential and I like his style of football. No one complained about him when we whopped weaker opponents in qualifications nor when we tied Brazil and beat Italy (whichc seems really odd now). Let's just hope he gets a fresher squad for the next time!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Ok, i'll try to put in in another view.

Spain has maybe top 5 placement when it comes down to individual skill, the other would be:

1.Brazil
2.Argentina
3.Spain
4.Dutch
5.Last call,France or something else?

And continuing at the topic I see it this way:

Brazil/Luxemburgo-A very good coach that doesnt go "all-attack" because he has the best attackers in the world (among the best maybe)

Argentina/Bielsa-Would need some help at this one but isnt Bielsa i "Discipline man"? Still, they are well organized and seem to have a tight defence (considering "weak" names in it)

Spain/Camacho-Little tactical knowledge,what this topic is about :)

Dutch/Rijkaard (none at the moment)-I am not being a smart-ass now. But when they appointed Rijkaard I knew they did not get the best option. He might have knowledge about Dutch football but thats it as far as i see it. They should have kicked him a long time before the Euro.


And my conclusion is that Spain could be among the top 3 EASY if they had a tactical plan.....

Real&Barcafan
 

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I think this is all true, but my conclusion is something I've said before, Spain just weren't good enough. Players like Aranzabal, Valeron and Alfonso were just huge mistakes. In the end we didn't have the necessary depth to woin the tournament. In attack the lack of Morientes was IMO very obvious, and unlike you Pablo, I think it could've changed a lot, because Alfonso was simply disgraceful:mad: The midfield was where our main problem lay, especially in the first games, Guardiola was completely out of it, and Valeron just couldn't help him out. Mendieta did do what he could later, but it just wasn't enough, I don't understand why gerard didn't play, because he really impressed those couple of minutes he was on against france. Then there's Fran, who was sooo bad, i don't wanna even comment, and why munitis didn't play is possibly Camachos biggest blunder. The defense was OK, only Paco decided fauling is more effective then sliding:), and how he got away without a red is a mistery. In the defense the lack of Hierro was just very visable later in the tournament. So it is a mixture of bad luck, but IMO not just tactics from camacho, bu the wrong player choice. Some of the picks were simply disastrous and let's not cheat ourselves on that:mad:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I am not talking about the selection! Allt hose that were aboard were good! And maybe one or two changes wouldnt matter! I am trying to say that Spain lacked in tactics and thats why they didnt show what we wanted...

Real&Barcafan
 

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Interesting subject. Perhaps Camacho could have done tactically but I feel his real fault was that he didn't put the right players in the right places. I like his stragety of attack, it is certainly better than putting 8 defenders out on the field like Clemente did versus Nigeria.

Certainly Camacho knows a lot more about futbol than I do but I still have problems with some of his decisions. For example, Valeron and Urzaiz had no business being on this team (the former because he has completely lost it and the latter because his form was absolutely awful this season). I was disappointed in Fran's performance (to say the least), I know he has more quality than he showed but perhaps age has gotten to him. And putting Mendieta on the left side was a mistake, that goes back to putting players in the right position. Mendieta should have been on the right side or in the middle (my preference). You team up Guardiola and Mendieta in the middle it would give a good balance in my opinion. After the disaster versus Norway I think Fran should have been on the bench (which he was) but I would have put Munitis on the left side (easy to say that now). When he was in there he absolutely terroized the opponents, he tore up Thuram (supposedly the best fullback in the world). Up front partnering Raul should have been Mori but he wasn't there, so Alfonso would do I guess. It's tough to say because I think Morientes is the only true striker we have, all the others have good to great skill on the ground but they are more fantasy than efficient strikers (except for players like Urzaiz, but he has been just awful this season, what was Camacho thinking?!?). At the back I would have partnered Helguera and Abelardo, they aren't great (although I think Helguera is getting there) but certainly a better pairing than Paco would have (assuming Hierro was out, which he was). And lastly, Sergi should have been on the left from the start, he is miles better than Aranzabal, we are an attack minded team so put our best attacking players in there.

I still think we would have lost to the French but at least put our best players in the right positions, it would give us more of a chance. I hope Camacho has learned from this. Hopefully in 2002 we will do better. By the way, we were the youngest team in the European Championship so there is definite hope for the future.

R&B, I think you make a valid point about fatigue. Some players like Raul look very exahausted. I think before the WC it would be better if La Liga clubs were to bow out early in the Euro competitions. Yes it would hurt the league status a little but I believe it would benefit our National team, it certainly hasn't hurt the Italians in the EURO 2000.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Ok, step two i guess......I wasnt all that focused on the player selection cause its always that when you have seen the outcome you try to put in solutions that are too late..

But ok, after evaluating every player before and after Euro i think it should be like this (its very simple)

Before/after

Molina : 8/1
Canizarez: 6/5

Sergi: ?/7
Aranzabal: 7/6
Paco: 9/7
Abelardo: 7/7 (8 for the penalties included ;) )
Hierro: ?/6
Salgado: 9/8.5

Fran: 8.5/4
Munitis: 8/8
Guardiola: ?/7.5
Helguera: 8/8
Mendieta: 9/8.5
Etxeberria: 7.5/5

Raúl: 9/6
Alfonso: 7.5/6.5
Urzaiz: 5.5/5

***************
Players that were on the "list"

form for season

Guererro: ?
Mori: ?
Salva: 9

Its very simple. If you dont agree nad have GOOD points on why the ratings arnt right i will comment it of course!

Real&Barcafan
 

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I put team selection as part of the tactic, so i agree with you R&B:) But I have other ideas on the rating you made. First why didn't you post any pretournament expectations on Barca players, especially asince you're a Barca fan too!?:mad: that's not fair and here's my list:

Molina 6/2
Canizares 8/6
Casillas 7/_

Salgado 9/6
Velasco 7/_
Sergi 8/8
Aranzabal 7/4
Hierro 7/8
Paco 8/5
Abelardo 8/8
Helguera 8/9

Mendieta 10/8
Guardiola 9/7
Engonga 7/6
Gerard 6/7
Fran 8/5
Munitis 8/10 (for how he destroyed Thuram - this is for you AMOROSO:D)
Etxeberria 8/6

Raul 10/7
Alfonso 8/6
Urzaiz 8/6


Comments?:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Ok labas i lso have opinions so lets go.

Molina: His season was GREAT! He was the one that made Atletico go down in a "honourable" way.... Maybe 80% of the goals he allowed were untuchable and that is a good record. More importent he made alot of fantastic saves EVERY game...

Canizares: Ask any Valencia fan and he will tell you he was nothing as the season before! Just because the team did well it doesnt mean he is had a good season as well, you rate him too high.

Salgado: IMO one of the most important players for Spain this EURO2000. And he deserved more then a 6 from you..

Sergi:Was benced under Van Gaal and had injury problems. That makes it impossible to grade him! But for sure he does not deserve a 8! Not more then a 6.5 too!

Abelardo: 8 for the season?His seaosn has been like a rollercoaster. First he is captain then he is benched! But the 7 from me is a good grade so....

Hierro: NO LABAS! He does not deserve more then 6 and every MAdrid fan should know that! Every time we have discussed him everyone has been saying how bad he is this season (even you!) and now you put a 7 on him?
He was hardly in the tournamnent so the 8 is even more amazing? Can you please explain it?

Paco: Was a good defender. Maybe lacked in marking but hey.Was lucky not to get that red card (that will be a famous foul!) He has to be a 7...

Aranzabal: Again you slate a player totally! Why was he so bad? I think he did a good job (But he missed Djorkaef once...) and the 4 is in question. At least a 5!

Helguera: Iam happy we agree, Ivan Helgurea makes you happy to be a Real Madrid fan :)

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Well we seem to agree at the midfield....

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Raul was not any better then Alfonso, we have a topic about it so lets not discuss it here... ANd How can you give Urzaiz a 8? His season was his worst of his life!

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Waiting for anyones comments :)

Real&Barcafan
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Labas why are you not defending your crazy ratings?
You just have to explain some of them....

Real&Barcafan
 
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R&B - I don't know that I agree about Molina making Atletico going down in an honorable way (it almost seems an oxymoron).

What we did see of him in Euro200 almost cost us the first round. I'd think his rating of 2 may be a bit low, but certainly not past a 4 (he certainly is not the sole person to blame for Norway).

I think you are spot-on about Canizares. In Euro, as in CL Final, he choked when it counted and that isn't going to do.

I think Salgago was really not apparent on the flanks as we've grown accustomed to seeing him.

I also think Hierro did well -- for what he played. As a Real fan, it gave me hope as to his future, and then he re-injured himself :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Well, no controversy from yuo then Pablo...I wanted Molina to have a 1 because you cant do much worse in a match (the only one he played).

Salgado was himself. Consistent and never diong stupid things like Aranzabal did..

Pablo, what do you think about Labas ratings and mine? Which one are right In your opinion? I still havent recieved a response from Labas so......

Real&Barcafan
 

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To return to the initial subject (Camacho), I was furious with him during the Tournament. Much calmer now and after reading around a bit I have concluded that the guy must be an "all or nothing" type, very emotional, not always with a cool head I'm afraid. I don't know whether you consider this as an asset for a coach (not in my book), but it certainly adds character! :) Anyway, I can live with Camacho for the moment, especially afer I've seen Rijkaard perform ;) Man, he sucked!

On the players comments now, I agree on some and disagree on others.
Goalies: Molina and Canizares were not good. Both of them. Molina was unlucky to have made such a mistake (it doesn't happen everyday you know - Zubizareta did a worse one in the WC98) so we couldn't see more of him. Canizares didn't inspire any confidence at all. I seriously doubted if Camacho would ever start Casillas and was proved right. Nobody would really. Toshak/Del Bosque had no alternative.

Defenders: Hierro was the best option indeed, along with Abelardo. Sergi also did very well. Paco was quite average, Aranzabal sucked and Salgado performed well below his standards. IMO CAmacho should have used del Bosque's system: play with Helguera as a libero along with two DCs and with Salgado and Sergi as wingers with an attacking orientation. That should also cover the height he was asking for.

Midfielders: Guardiola SUCKED. He couldn't manage on his own. He did a lot better (was even named Man of the Match :confused: ) only AFTER Camacho put in Helguera to support him (maybe that's a good reason to keep Helguera in the midfield after all). Fran and Valeron (especially) sucked as well, and only Mendieta performed at high standards. The spanish side looked a lot more as a team after he became a starter and quite disorganized during his absence.

Forwards: What can I say... Raul looked very far from his normal self. He was such a dissapoinment to my eyes. Yes, he might have been tired, yes, he had to face 2-3 defenders, yes, he was back from an injury, but these excuses seem inadequate for a player of his class (sorry labas). I needn't mention Urzaiz, we all agree on him. Etxeberria was average but has a beautiful goal against Slovenia in his credit, Munitis was good but played so little (not even 90 mins as a whole if I'm not mistaken) and Alfonso was the best IMO. Labas, I know you disagree, I rate him highly because of the fighting spirit he really showed while NONE OF THE OTHERS did to that extent. I was saying after the defeat from Norway that he should start. Why? Because he seemed like the fittest of them all, really volatile and looking threatening to the opposite defenses. I don't think that any of the others really gave a hard time to the opposite defenses (regardless of whether they scored or not) and we're talking about BAD defenses man! Slovenia and Yugoslavia! I realise he was not good at finalizing his efforts though.

The worst part for me was that they DID NOT LOOK LIKE A TEAM AT ALL. Just a bunch of skilled (and less skilled) individuals. And this is Camacho's responsibility. The constant changes of the starting 11 from match to match didn't help either.
 
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In general, my opinions are more in line with R&B but I think I'm pretty well in-tune with hala.

R&B - I'd say they were right save for Aranzabal (I think he looked like an amateur), Salgado (ditto hala's synopsis) and Guardiola. He constantly bungled kicks/passes (too long or too short). I would have given him 7.5 before and 6 after.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Hala, you rated Hierro as the second best defender. Thats impossible because he only played very little! Abelardo was as he always is good on the head but fast player can outrun him all the time...I didnt want to include the "dives" he did when he got those penalties because those things shouldnt be on a player rating (F.Inzaghi would be a perfect 10 in that case, awful huh?)

ANd Ivan Helgurea is as i wrote previously a man of the fututre. This season i had low thoughts on him but now he might be one of our key-players. Proof of his greatness is his ability to play on two totally diffrent positions. Camacho chose him to be MC along with "pep" bt maybe the sweeper system from Madrid would be better, would probably had given us some more stability back there...

And iam so happy that someones agrees on that Raul and Alfonso were far from eachother when rating them!

Real&barcafan
 

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R&B: Hierro played in two whole games, against Norway and Slovenia and he'd play in the rest as well if he hadn't been injured. It's enough to rate him IMO, he played more than e.g. Sergi or Munitis. As a matter of fact we have seen all DCs combination schemes. Against Norway: Hierro-Paco, against Slovenia: Hierro-Abelardo, against Yugo and France: Abelardo-Paco. So, we have surely enough to rate our defense.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I general yes, we could rate them but iam up for the individual bit- and i cant see why you are so sure that Hierro was good at Euro2000. He played the first two games and he hardly had anything to do! So maybe its unfair to put a low rating on him cause he really wasnt bad...

And among the three defense pairings we saw i really liked the one many people called "slow". Abelardo and Hierro. Both are good at the head and experienced defenders. But to be realistic i have to say that Hierros international career is over. Cause only WC 2002 could be possible for him and now that seems like a long time away....

Real&Barcafan
 

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You're probably right about Hierro's international career. Ah, we'll see I guess...

I also liked best the "slow" duo Abelardo-Hierro. Not that Paco is a lot faster than them... Hierro had a solid 1st game and a decent 2nd. Better than Paco that did nothing except for jumping in other people's backs :mad: As for Abelardo, his diving skills proved to be a "valuable" asset to La Furia. :mad: We certainly shouldn't lose him!
 

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Well, here I am R&B! Don't make me put you down now;)! hehe

anyway to comment on some of the things you said:
Molina - I don't care what kind of a season he had, he was always crappy, losing such silly goals! My first mark was for the overall opinion I had on the player before the tournament, not just last season.
Aranzabal - according to me 4 is very generous to him. He was horrible. Nothing more to be said.
Salgado - how can you say he had a good EURO 2000!? He was simply invisible. Sure if you compare him to Aranzabal he was average, but I'm comapring him to his games in Real Madrid. there he was a constant threat, during EURO 2000 he was noone!
Hierro- IMO had a very respectabe EURO 2000, strong contrast to what I was expecting.
 
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