[Johan]

A club who tries to fix match, even if "only" one, and even if unsuccessfully, must be relegated to a lower league. It's as simple as that.

Exactly!

Now the question is weather Milan tried to fix a match. If some official authoritative figure from Milan tried to dix a match, it means Milan tried to fix a match.

Exactly

Meani tried to fix a match, so Milan must be relegated.

to quote Firdaus I could say "it is now proven" we didn't fix a game, both by the original and appeal courts. In fact there is not evidence at all saying that, but I guess we should trust a sullen Interesta on it?

The same goes for every club and every league, in every sports in the world.

Exactly!

 

[Firdaus]

PS: Demanding certain linesman like Meani did for Milan and told Galliani: How often does it happen that before certain finals that teams want Collina for the final (like MIlan/Juve in CL 2003 wanted). Germany wanted a proven top class referee for the 2002 WC semifinal after Korea-Italy and Korea-Spain. And a dozen times in league top teams where the referee is assigned by reputation rather than a draw as usual.
Accoring to these lawsuits these teams should be banned too because of demanding certain referees.

Yeah but they were open about it and went public. They didn't think they needed to make clandestine phonecalls to unilaterally make the arrangements and try to call their own shots.

 

[Firdaus]

to quote Firdaus I could say "it is now proven" we didn't fix a game, both by the original and appeal courts. In fact there is not evidence at all saying that, but I guess we should trust a sullen Interesta on it?

LOL. I didn't say that. Why is there a need to fabricate? All I said was that it is confirmed that Milan are guilty of the charges against them. Whether you say there was no evidence is now inconsequential as the prosecution used the available evidence and met the burden of proof. And Milan could not raise any reasonable doubt.

In any case, if you wish to criticise the merits of the decision then do so. I think the "we were convicted for nothing" is a bare assertion on its own. I was hoping to see an extract from the judgment to support that claim.

Johan, could you please provide a link to the transcripts (preferably a translated version)? I know you said that it was around in one of the forums but I'd appreciate it if you could actually be more forthcoming with a link.

 

[Johan]

LOL. I didn't say that. Why is there a need to fabricate? All I said was that it is confirmed that Milan are guilty of the charges against them. Whether you say there was no evidence is now inconsequential as the prosecution used the available evidence and met the burden of proof. And Milan could not raise any reasonable doubt.

It wasn't exactly a quote from you. I just used what you claim as evidence being proof of us not having fixed any games. It is quite simple really. If you think they came to their conclusion as for evidence then you must admit we didn't fix any games as that is a automatic relegation. Very simple.

As for the rest, read the Bayman post. or any other post from me. Your still using the same "because they convicted you" excuse without anything else. What are we convicted for and on what grounds are there a penalty? I say none since our penalty is hardly within either sports or legal rules.

In the long thread in the Milan forum there is the call between Meani and Galliani. diavolo translated it.

 

[Bayman]

Yeah but they were open about it and went public. They didn't think they needed to make clandestine phonecalls to unilaterally make the arrangements and try to call their own shots.

True. That is why it is probably a violation of Article No.1 of the football federation. And the sentence on that is a reduction of points (maximum of 15 IIRC).

 

[Giuliano81]

The title was deserved. BUT, Giuliano, the Calciopoli scandal goes beyond the issue of who won last season. That part was handled correctly - but now the focus turns to the Calciopoli sentences. We need to remove fraud so that match-fixing, etc, does not occur again.

I agree with this and don't get me wrong, whoever is guilty must be punished but I just don't believe a good, long trial has taken place.

 

[Firdaus]

It wasn't exactly a quote from you. I just used what you claim as evidence being proof of us not having fixed any games. It is quite simple really. If you think they came to their conclusion as for evidence then you must admit we didn't fix any games as that is a automatic relegation. Very simple.

As for the rest, read the Bayman post. or any other post from me. Your still using the same "because they convicted you" excuse without anything else. What are we convicted for and on what grounds are there a penalty? I say none since our penalty is hardly within either sports or legal rules.

Wow. You make a good point then you lose it.

Broadly, all teams have been charged with sporting fraud. In particular, Milan was found to have breached sporting justice obligations.

As for the penalty, you know what that is. The grounds I do not know as I have not read the case yet. Didn't you say that you did? But what you can be sure of is that the prosecution, on the evidence presented, proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Finally, you seem to conflate the issues of conviction and sentencing. A low sentence does not mean you are not guilty - you were convicted for your guilt in the first place.

In the long thread in the Milan forum there is the call between Meani and Galliani. diavolo translated it.

Is that all you've read? I thought you said that you read the transcript of the proceedings.

 

[InterFan7]

After a match between Siena and Milan in 2005, which Milan lost, Meani talked on the phone with the official who assigns linesmen, Gennaro Mazzei, and complained about a linesman at the game.

"I don't want him. I never asked for him and I never wanted him," Meani said, according to Corriere.

"Now you be careful, be careful," Meani said, adding that "Galliani is furious."

Before a Milan derby last year pitting AC Milan versus Inter Milan, Puglisi spoke to Meani about how "important it is for us to (beat) these Interisti," according to the transcripts.

Untill Galliani won't shoot at someone(ie, saying like a kid directly "I want you, my dear friend of them all, to appoint [spme name] to our match against [some club]"), those who don't want to see, won't see.
There is a saying says "The most blind are those who don't want to see"


You really need to lie yourself and be enourmousely naive to interpret it otherwise. The club has no right to call the designator and put any sort of pressure on him, and the officials from the federation(both the FIGC and the referees) must report each and every such call to the federation(this is what those designators were gound guilty about).

 

[Johan]

Broadly, all teams have been charged with sporting fraud. In particular, Milan was found to have breached sporting justice obligations.

Didn't you say that you did?

I read it in Italian, not exactly my best language. What I got was that it was mostly/only about one game and meanis call there.

But what you can be sure of is that the prosecution, on the evidence presented, proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt.

Clearly I can't. A sporting court is not a normal court as have been said again and again. They have a lower threshold for burden and not clear rules for punishment except the "match fixed = relegation". Of course according to what Bayman said the sentence for what we got convicted for is by the rules much shorter than the 38 points we lost in total.

Finally, you seem to conflate the issues of conviction and sentencing. A low sentence does not mean you are not guilty - you were convicted for your guilt in the first place.

Guilty of what is more of the question. As I said in the Milan forum, if Milan will not appeal then they and in turn I will accept that they breached some rules. But if you read around here you see most uninformed (mostly Interista and Parmese) fans saying we should have a much harder punishment. So far I seen 0% motivation as to why that is, except their general will to see us punished.

Is that all you've read? I thought you said that you read the transcript of the proceedings.

I am not into this talk this much. The original proceedings for Milan was not much. Our defense was 45 seconds long. I read many more transcripts, but most of them was printed and translated a long time ago and I don't feel like searching it all up. the transcript I mentioned to you is the one of utmost importance to our case as that is the one they used to tie us (Galliani) to what Meani said.

 

[Firdaus]

Better, Johan. You're right in that Milan weren't charged for the breach of the more serious article. But I have already addressed this in another thread.

You haven't criticised the decision with any reference to the merits either so, for now, what you have are bare assertions.

Again, please produce some sort of link so I can read it for myself. I hope that isn't asking too much of you. When I say transcript, I refer to the transcript of the PROCEEDINGS and not of the phonecalls. The latter should be referred to in the former anyway. I would like to read about how the proceedings went and the reasons for the decision. That's the only way they can be criticised.If the judgment is out, then of course, that would be preferable.

As to sporting justice procedure, kindly show me your source for the differing standards of proof.

 

[Johan]

There is a saying says "The most blind are those who don't want to see"

I have a better saying that I just came up with. "Those who can't debate will just reiterate their opinion ad infinitum"

You really need to lie yourself and be enourmousely naive to interpret it otherwise.

Otherwise as to what? You have no red line or anything to what you said. What did I say? What have I denied or admitted? You have this far only put out your incredible biased opinion.

The club has no right to call the designator and put any sort of pressure on him,

1. the club never called a designator, there is not one single call about Milan when it comes to that.
2. "Pressure" sure is a broad term here. Pressure need backing up, it may need threats and it need a favourable power balance.

and the officials from the federation(both the FIGC and the referees) must report each and every such call to the federation(this is what those designators were gound guilty about).

I never mentioned anything about this. Also I never seen anything about this rule. In extension this would mean that Fachetti did wrong when it came to the call he was in about.

But since both the FIGC and about everyone else got a punishment we can question who should call who and what any one person could do. That was the brilliance of the system by Moggi as none had anyone to report too.

also here I think there is the most indiscrimating suspect I have about Galliani. Should he not know about anything of this? Impossible to know and I rather be "naive" then base my belief on nothing concrete at all.

 

[Johan]

When I say transcript, I refer to the transcript of the PROCEEDINGS and not the phonecall.

As for sporting justice procedure, kindly show me your source for the differing standards of proof.

As for the first. I sense you ask for something I don't have. Whiel the press where at the whole trial they mostly printed summarising of what was said by different persons. Gazetta did that day by day. I could send you that Italian document by e-mail as I have that at my work computer. Needs some fluency in Italian of course.

Have you not read any news reports? there are like 200 mentions about that thing about sports quort. After a little digging I have something in this post from Bern where he quote a newslink: http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showpost.php?p=4340482&postcount=130

 

[InterFan7]

Otherwise as to what? You have no red line or anything to what you said. What did I say? What have I denied or admitted? You have this far only put out your incredible biased opinion.

I'm sorry but I probably have missed your own clear opinion. So, in 1-2 sentences, can you tell me what is it regarding Meanis phone transcript?

He said things like

I don't want him! I never asked for him and I never wanted him!

Now you be careful, be careful, Galliani is furious.

He alse was told

important it is for us to (beat) these Interisti,

by Claudio Puglisi, who is a linesman in the Italian referees federation(he's the one who is suspected to be Milans' referee[linesman]).

the club never called a designator, there is not one single call about Milan when it comes to that.

Johan, Meani called Gennaro Mazzei, who is a linesman designator from the federation, and told him, among other things, those 2 quotations written above.

"Pressure" sure is a broad term here. Pressure need backing up, it may need threats and it need a favourable power balance.

telling some official from the federation(for example) things like

Now you be careful, be careful

and the other things(I really don't want to write the transcript over and over again as it was already discussed and reviewed heavily) means- putting a pressure.
As for the underlined words; AC Milan fans are the last one, maybe except Juve fans, to have concerns about them as far as power balance comes into account.

I never mentioned anything about this. Also I never seen anything about this rule.

Oh really? It's very interesting how you missed it, as this is the one thing those people from FIGC and referee federation were accused and questioned about most. They had to explain why they didn't report those calls. This is what they have to do. They have to report, otherwise they are guilty of co-operative.
And how did you miss all those excuses referees were telling in the last weeks to justify themselves because they didn't report those phone calls? Most of them said "I thought it was just a nice chat without anything influential"(not an exact quotation, but a kind-of).

In extension this would mean that Fachetti did wrong when it came to the call he was in about.

:smileani:
you better read Morattis' reaction about this call again. He was so happy this call was published in Gazzettta dello Sport, because it proved the opossite compared to the speeches of Juve's official with the same man(Paireto). Also ,next time, you better check who called who

But since both the FIGC and about everyone else got a punishment we can question who should call who and what any one person could do. That was the brilliance of the system by Moggi as none had anyone to report too.

Well, that's true but the people from the federation must report phone calls from clubs representatives. It's their duty no matter wether the system above them is corrupted. By doing so(reporting) they also clear themselves of any guiltiness.

also here I think there is the most indiscrimating suspect I have about Galliani. Should he not know about anything of this? Impossible to know and I rather be "naive" then base my belief on nothing concrete at all.

I don't belive he knew nothing, just like I don't believe Cerraro knew nothing, Agneli family knew nothing(it's was very convenient for them to "not notice" it). How do you think that Fachetti, Zehman, Gauchi, Mancini(long before he joined Inter), Zohf and others "knew"/knew about this?
It even was published in some books(I can name you one and even 2) some years before the scandal emerged.

 

[InterFan7]

Johan, I'm waiting for your reply.

You demand a lot- you demand proofs, part of them on things we don't have access to(like the FIGCs' codes, which is not published in the internet), everything, every effort to hold on the rather naive belief that Milan(I guess in your case only Milan is relevant) is totaly clean. You make it to be looked like a firm belief and it's exactly like Al Capone woman who said "he's not a murderer, the police didn't find him murdering and those who saw him murdering are lying".

It's not like you saying "I admit Milan probably had cheated a bit, but I'm not totally convinced".

 

[Johan]

Johan, I'm waiting for your reply.

You demand a lot- you demand proofs, part of them on things we don't have access to(like the FIGCs' codes, which is not published in the internet), everything, every effort to hold on the rather naive belief that Milan(I guess in your case only Milan is relevant) is totaly clean. You make it to be looked like a firm belief and it's exactly like Al Capone woman who said "he's not a murderer, the police didn't find him murdering and those who saw him murdering are lying".

It's not like you saying "I admit Milan probably had cheated a bit, but I'm not totally convinced".

Hehe.

I just saw your signature. Seemingly I compltely forgot this topic, not surprising since I usually only check the Milan forum.

As for the proof when all was publisced I heard there wasn't really much on us at all, but that is all I have to say about that as I am not in the know how.

I'm sorry but I probably have missed your own clear opinion. So, in 1-2 sentences, can you tell me what is it regarding Meanis phone transcript?

He said things like

"I don't want him! I never asked for him and I never wanted him!"

The first thing he said was the most clear one and it certainly insuinate that he wants us to have a certain linesman. This seems to imply there is something fishy going on in any way. But it also goes back to one of the original points, the linesman in this game that the call was after had made a clear incorrect decisions that costed us. Playing the devils advocate (pun intended), who's not to say he knew that referee would call against us and wanted to avoid him at all costs?

"Now you be careful, be careful, Galliani is furious."

I think I said it before, I was also quite furious. Of course the "you be careful" part is a implied threat, not something to be proud off.

"important it is for us to (beat) these Interisti,"

Now that is a biased ref. first time I seen this transcript. someone that says something like this should not be allowed to ref again in that division. Of course maybe it could be claimed serie A would be without referees then.

by Claudio Puglisi, who is a linesman in the Italian referees federation(he's the one who is suspected to be Milans' referee[linesman]).

I think that above statment makes it safe to say he is biased.

Johan, Meani called Gennaro Mazzei, who is a linesman designator from the federation, and told him, among other things, those 2 quotations written above.

Which basically is not really proof of anything but him make a call that he is not allowed to make. It also implies he doesn't get the referee he actually wanted, which would imply he doesn't have any power to cheat...

telling some official from the federation(for example) things like and the other things(I really don't want to write the transcript over and over again as it was already discussed and reviewed heavily) means- putting a pressure.

Yes pressure, but no proof of cheating or that the pressure have any sort of effect. As said above, in fact it seems the opposite, that he lacked the power needed.

As for the underlined words; AC Milan fans are the last one, maybe except Juve fans, to have concerns about them as far as power balance comes into account.

True. although our power is mostly political and financial, more than institutional in the league.

Oh really? It's very interesting how you missed it, as this is the one thing those people from FIGC and referee federation were accused and questioned about most. They had to explain why they didn't report those calls. This is what they have to do. They have to report, otherwise they are guilty of co-operative.

You got me a bit wrong, what I said is that I never read about the rule. I didn't really know about the rule or what it pertains. What calls where okay and which where not? I am not talking about the contents of the calls here, I am talking about the rule that they can't call them without reporting.

And how did you miss all those excuses referees were telling in the last weeks to justify themselves because they didn't report those phone calls? Most of them said "I thought it was just a nice chat without anything influential"(not an exact quotation, but a kind-of).

See their excuse, that was kind of the thing, obviously I understand that they must report someone trying to make them cheat or being offered maseratis.

:smileani:
you better read Morattis' reaction about this call again. He was so happy this call was published in Gazzettta dello Sport, because it proved the opossite compared to the speeches of Juve's official with the same man(Paireto). Also ,next time, you better check who called who

to long ago, I don't remember. but it must have a been a very bad call. Contents are more important than who made the call, like if Pairetto called and asked when his Maserati would be delivered.

Could also be me having read "press bendings" of what was said.

Well, that's true but the people from the federation must report phone calls from clubs representatives. It's their duty no matter wether the system above them is corrupted. By doing so(reporting) they also clear themselves of any guiltiness.

We are going in a circle now. Exactly who are they going to report too if there is none to report too? Only ones I can come up with is the press...

I don't belive he knew nothing, just like I don't believe Cerraro knew nothing, Agneli family knew nothing(it's was very convenient for them to "not notice" it).

I am leaning towards agreeing here, if anything I said last year that we should kick out Galliani directly if he knew about what Juve did and didn't do something about it...

How do you think that Fachetti, Zehman, Gauchi, Mancini(long before he joined Inter), Zohf and others "knew"/knew about this?

They probably watched some Juventus games.