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Discussion Starter #1
Just a random question here for you Brazillian boys,

Who would you have in your greatest Brazilian XI, with seven subs on the bench?
 

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Cachorro
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All-time?

My keeper would be Gilmar: Twice World Champ for the Seleçao, twice Intercontinental Champ for Santos, Gilmar made hard saves look easy. Gilmar was a crucial part of the backbone of Pele's Santos, together with Zito (DM of the 58/62 Brasilian NTs), Pepe (a powerful leftwinger who missed out on the NT because of Zagallo's tactical importance), Pele and Coutinho (Pele's classic partner).


At rightback, the 1970 captain Carlos Alberto Torres. Torres combined skill and physical strenght, first in the rightback and later as a central defender. His natural leadership made him captain of a bunch that included Piazza, Gerson, Rivelino and Pele.


In the central defense, Bellini and Aldair. Bellini was a legendary captain for Vasco, and also captain of the Brasilian team that won our first WC in 1958. Outside the pitch Bellini was a handsome gentleman who made girls go crazy, but inside the pitch he was an inflexible hardass, who imposed his presence through physical strenght and determination - and who was also famous for his loyalty and sportsmanship.


Unlike Bellini, Aldair based his game not on strenght but on positioning and timing. Highly technical, Aldair began his career on 1985 at a powerful Flamengo team that boasted of players like Leandro and Mozer on central defense, but one year later he was already established. In 1987 he was Brasilian champion, and in 1989 he went to Europe - initially to Benfica, but one season later he would land in Roma, where he'd stay for over a decade and become a legend. Among other trophies at international level, Aldair won two Copa Americas (89 and 97) and the 94 World Cup. At Roma he won one Coppa Italia (90/91) and one Scudetto (2000/01).


The leftback is a no-brainer: Nilton Santos, greatest leftback ever and creator of the modern wingback position. Nilton Santos was a forward in his youth, and only became a leftback because when he arrived at Botafogo's youth divisions the team needed a leftback. Nilton Santos, known in his time as "The Encyclopedia of Football" due to his versatility and skill, was one of the stars of the legendary Botafogo team that also included Didi, Zagallo, Garrincha and Amarildo (at team that was the backbone of the 58/62 Brasilian teams). At International level, apart from the 58/62 World Cups Nilton also won the 1949 South American championship, the 52 PanAmerican Championship, and a lot of other trophies.


More later...
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Was Aldair that good? :eek:
 

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Cachorro
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Well, a strong case could be made for Domingos da Guia instead of Aldair. But I really think Aldair was that good.
 

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Clemer - goalkeeper


Carlinhos Itaberá - Right back


Fábio Bilica - defender


Mongol - defender


Marcinho Caganeira - left back


Nélson Patola - defensive midfielder


Cocito - defensive midfielder


Bruno Soneca - attacking midfielder


Michel - attacking midfielder


Valdir Papel - striker


Adriano Chuva - striker
 

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Hexacampeão
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Well, a strong case could be made for Domingos da Guia instead of Aldair. But I really think Aldair was that good.
I'd take Djalma Santos or Leandro over Carlos Alberto Torres. Just a personal preference.
 

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Can't argue with Cafu though. Goleiro is Sao Taffarel (no debate), Lucio, tempted to say Edinho but 2 ball-playing zagueiros would be perhaps not the best idea!. Maybe go with Juan, Roberto Carlos at left back (Branco a close second), Cerezo as our most elegant volante ever. Zico, Pele, Ronaldo has got to be in though, Ze Sergio on the left. One more midfielder...................will go for Gerson.
 

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Welcome To Jamrock
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Excellent write up Garrincha, can't wait for the rest of the squad :)
 

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Gilmar dos Santos Neves
Djalma Santos
Domingos da Guia
Mauro Ramos de Oliveira
Nilton Santos
Falcão
Didi
Zico
Pelé
Garrincha
Romário

Reserves: Lêonidas, Zizinho, C.A.Torres, Bellini, Luiz Pereira, Zito, Gerson, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Tostão, Rivelino and others.
 

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Can't argue with Cafu though.
You must argue. Cafu is not considered the best RB ever by any serious journalist in Brazil. Although he had a great career, as a player, he was not as talented as guys like Djalma Santos, Carlos Alberto, Leandro or even Jorginho and Nelinho.

Goleiro is Sao Taffarel (no debate)
Actually, It should be Gilmar with little debate. Gk who was always at the right spot. He never made any acrobatic move unless it was necessary. Two time world cup winner. Two time Libertadores winner with the great Santos.



BTW, I'm not anyhow bashing your XI. I understand it has your favourite players. The thing is Brazil has had such a great number of great players that several differents teams can be made.
For most fans and journalists who love and like football history, there are only a few positions to have a clear best player.
I'd say only Gilmar, Nilton Santos, Pele and Garrincha are "locks" when judging without being biased by club love.

Others:

RB: Everyone always have between Carlos Alberto Torres and Djalma Santos.
CB's - several players in the mix.
DM - Falcao, Zito, Clodoaldo and others.
CM/AM - Most chose Didi, some chose Gerson.
Other AM next to Pele: Rivelino, Zico, Zizinho, Jairzinho, Tostão and several others fights for this spot.
Striker: Romario and Ronaldo in a great battle among most fans.
 

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Cachorro
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Continuing my choices for Brasil's all-time 11...

On midfield I'd have to start with Falcão. This lanky, curly-haired midfielder was first called to the NT for the 1972 Olympics, and became a starter at Internacional in 73 at the tender age of 19. Internacional at the time had a mighty team, that would win three Brasilian leagues in one decade (75, 76 and 79, and in each of those triumphs Falcão was invariably the MVP), and Falcão stamped every ball that passed through their midfield. His precise passing and strong defensive work, combined with decisive goals and tactical intelligence, made him an idol everywhere he played. In 1980, Paulo Roberto Falcão was sold to Roma, where he'd win two Copa Italias (81 and 84) and one Scudetto in 83. At NT level he was less successful than at club level, but he was part of the celebrated 1982 NT's "magic midfield", together with Cerezo, Socrates and Zico.


Next to Falcão, none other than the "Ethiopian Prince" Didi: a classic midfield maestro, and an unforgettable stylist. Even people who knew nothing about football could tell that Didi was different inside the pitch. Elegance, vision and precision were combined into a dominating CM who was chosen as MVP of the 1958 World Cup (and was also given the nickname "Mister Football" by European journalists), when his teammates included Garrincha and Pele. Didi's impossibly long passes were the stuff of legend, and he utterly despised sliding tackles (because according to him, football is meant to be played on your feet and not on your ass). Didi also became famous for creating the "dry leaf" freekick - a move where he'd hit the ball with the external side of his foot, making the ball rise and then suddenly fall inside the net like a spinning dry leaf. The 'Ethiopian Prince' first became famous at Fluminense, where he played from '49 to '56, and in '57 he left complaining about racism and went to Botafogo, a club that he ended up falling in love with. Didi played 313 matches and scored 114 goals for Botafogo, winning several trophies. In '59, he was signed by Real Madrid to reinforce that decade's version of the "Galacticos" (a superteam that included Puskas and Di Stefano), but Di Stefano never liked Didi and that personal antipathy soon pushed the Prince back to Botafogo. :happy: Among other personal honors, Didi was the first player to score a goal in the Maracana.


Then we have Roberto Rivellino, nicknamed "The Atomic Hoof" by sports journalist Waldyr Amaral. Rivellino joined Corinthians' youth divisions at the relatively late age of 16, and three years later he was already a starter of their adult team, wearing the #10. One year later (1966) he'd get his first National Team call-up. Rivellino's razor-sharp technique allowed him to deliver brilliant passes and crosses, powerful medium-distance kicks, and absolutely lethal left-footed freekicks. Maradona once declared that Rivellino was the best player he ever watched. Rivellino is also widely considered the inventor of the "Elastico" (rubberband) dribble, but Riva himself once said that he'd copied the move from a friend who played futsal with him.


Completing this all-time-best midfield we have Pele, King of Football, Greatest Athlete of the 20th Century (elected by 9 separate entities, including the International Olympic Committee). Pele was first called to the NT when he was 17, and quickly earned his place in a team full of football giants; and despite his age, at the end of the 1958 WC a French newspaper declared him "King of Football". Among other achievements, Pele once stopped a war. In 1969, during a civil war in Africa, Santos was invited to play a friendly there, and in order to provide free passage to their team between Kinshasa and Brazzaville for the match the two warring factions declared a temporary ceasefire, because everybody wanted to watch Pele. The King won three World Cups, scored 1284 goals in 1375 matches (a staggering goal average of 0.93 per match, and he wasn't even a striker!), and for the NT he scored 95 goals in 115 matches. Twice Libertadores champion (62 and 63), twice Intercontinental champion (62 and 63), multiple times Brasilian champion.

Pele was the best football player of all time because Pele was technically complete. He could defend just as well as attack, his assists were just as deadly as his shots at goal, and he never wasted dribbles for the sake of entertainment: Pele was always, always looking for the goal.

Some things said about Pele by people who played against him or whatched him play live:
"I thought Pele was flesh-and-blood like me. I was mistaken."
-- Tarcisio Burgnich, Italian defender in 1970
"The best football player ever was Di Stefano. I refuse to classify Pele as a football player; Pele is above and beyond that."
-- Ferenc Puskas
"Pele is the only one who transcends the limits of logic."
-- Johann Cruyff
"After the fifth goal, I just wanted to applaud him."
-- Sigge Parling, part of the Swedish NT that played the '58 WC final.



Upfront, we have "The Joy of the People", the greatest dribbler of all time - Mane Garrincha. Garrincha was one of the best football players of all time despite the fact that his legs were crooked. His left leg was six centimeters shorter than the right one, and both legs were slightly bent to the right side. But despite that physical flaw, Garrincha's dribbles up the right wing were practically unstoppable. His playing style was irreverent and greatly entertaining for all fans: Garrincha liked dribbling for fun, sometimes he'd dribble an opposing player again even without needing to; and if an opponent used violence to stop him, that just motivated Garrincha to completely humiliate that opponent. His personal life was chaotic, but even rival fans enjoyed Garrincha's antics inside the pitch - he would routinely receive standing ovations from both sides at the Maracana, and was frequently compared to Charlie Chaplin. When Pele got injured in the 1962 World Cup, Garrincha rose to the occasion and crushed all opposition, playing more objectively than ever and scoring goals even with headers (which was uncommon for him, who usually took great pleasure in giving assists to his teammates). Garrincha's 62 campaign was the greatest individual performance in a World Cup ever seen until then, equal only to Maradona's performance in 1986.

Some things said about Garrincha by his contemporaries:

"We were in panic, thinking about what Garrincha could do. There was no defender in the world who could neutralize him."
-- Nils Liedholm, Sweden's midfielder in the 1958 World Cup
"In fifty years of football, there never was a player like Garrincha."
-- England's Daily Mirror


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And to complete the team, the finest striker I've ever had the pleasure of watching: Romario. The "Baixinho" was as lethal and cold-blooded as a professional hitman, and played with the grace of a dancer. Romario began his professional career at Vasco in 1985, and his first NT call-up was in 87; but the world only took notice of his talent in 1988, when he won the Olympic Silver Medal with the Brasilian team. Soon afterwards he was signed by PSV Eindhoven for US$5 Millions, and in 89 he won the Copa America for Brasil. In the 1990 WC Romario was still recovering from a fracture sustained the previous year, and that stopped him from contributing more to Brasil's campaign. In 1993 Romario went to Barcelona, where his proverbial lack of discipline caused several clashes with then-coach Johann Cruyff - controversies that were healed with dozens of goals and the 93/94 Spanish League championship. In 94 he led Brasil to win the World Cup, and at the end of that year was elected Best Player in the World by FIFA. Then Romario did the unexpected and decided to return to Brasilian football at his peak, arriving at Flamengo in 95. Flamengo's disorganization stopped him from winning more trophies there - just a couple of state championships and the 1999 Mercosul Cup - but in 2000 he returned to Vasco, where he won the Mercosul Cup again and also the 2000 Brasilian Championship (of which he was also top goalscorer, with 20 goals). Afterwards a declining Romario would also defend Fluminense and some foreign clubs, without trophies but still scoring many goals. Romario's vision, skill and agility made him a lethal striker, and he made it look easy with either foot. Despite his short stature, he was also a master of aerial play, scoring many beautiful headers; and his ball-control was out of this world, surpassed only by his boundless self-confidence.

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So that's my team - Gilmar, Carlos Alberto Torres, Bellini, Aldair and Nilton Santos; Falcão, Didi, Rivellino and Pelé; Garrincha and Romario.

Reserves: Taffarel, Leandro (or Cafu), Domingos da Guia, Luis Pereira, Roberto Carlos (or Junior or Marinho Chagas), Gerson, Cerezo, Zico, Zizinho, Jairzinho and Ronaldo.
 

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Cachorro
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Wait, I just saw that the thread starter asked for only seven subs. So my bench would be Taffarel, Leandro (who played both as RB and CB), Roberto Carlos (or Marinho or Junior), Gerson, Cerezo, Zico and Ronaldo. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Garrincha in particular.... Didi > Zico?
 

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Cachorro
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Well, they played in different positions, but yes. Didi won two WCs and was MVP of one of them. That's what Zico's dreams are about.

But Zico didn't lose his place in my 11 to Didi, he lost it to Rivellino.
 

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zico lost his place to bruno soneca in my 11
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Yes but all yours is biased Fab Manic.
 
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