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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Now that we have all had time to get used to whats happened in the last few weeks I would like those arsenal fans that said that this team is better then any english club team ever, to tell us why they feel that this is so. I have written this now cause surely most fans will of calmed down after their dismal knock out rournaments displays.
If this is construed to be an aggresive or starting a fight post, I dont understand. I am only asking for certain opinions to be explained.
This is not an easy topic for Pro-Gunners to discuss, but am i to believe that anythings that not easy to discuss will simply be deleted or closed. Like Arsenal players and staff, it seems some arsenal supporters arent willing to deal with any sort of criticism. Since it would be out of place in other forums, where are fans to go if they feel that arsenal or its supporters deserve criticism? Is it true to say that only arsenal fans can slag their own? Is it true to say that if you arent praising arsenal here, your not wanted. Isnt that called being a sore looser, kind of you only sing when your winning attitude?
In finishing, if nobody bothers to reply to this and its closed then so be it.
I have said all along that arsenals biggest problem is playing well on the big stage and this season they have once again proven me right. I would agree that they play the best football that I have certaiunly seen, but I still think that this football has dissapeared when they have been in serious need of it. Part of the reason that they are walking the league is cause united and chelsea cant beat the likes of Wolves, fulham and middlesboro. Anybody below 3rd is average at best. I dont think that united is that good, I can criticise my own team without a problem, but I dont think ythat arsenal has the players to win matches in pressure situations. they couldnt even beat us in the league, with a 12 point lead!!!! What i think is the situation is that arsenal have the consistancy that nobody else has. In their games against united and chelsea this season, arsenal havent blown the opposition away like they have with the leeds and middlesboros. I just think that this is a significant pointwhen talkingabout how great they are supposedly.
Also,. just a quick point on Henry. Yes hes class, but is wenger serious;ly trying to make us believe that Henry had a sore back against chelsea in the CL and then scored a hatrick 3 days later against Liverpool. Looks like the arsenal team arent the only ones that dont like pressure games...

Just a small note, arsenal fans didnt have a problem discussing this topic b4 they were knocke out of the CL and FA cup, surely just because situations have changed, they shouldnt be denied the option to continue to do so..
 

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first of all you better find some Arsenal fans that have said this is the best English team ever,i don't know any round here ;) :tongue:

just we are better than most of them,better than the United side of 99,i would say definitely,94 side don't know.

personally i think we are behind the great 1979 Liverpool side,and maybe the 1961 Spurs side,who i never saw but my family have told me lots about them,but i think we are in the top 2 in Europe at this time with Milan ,although there is not many good sides about at the present time.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
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Jern Lizardhous said:
first of all you better find some Arsenal fans that have said this is the best English team ever,i don't know any round here ;) :tongue:

just we are better than most of them,better than the United side of 99,i would say definitely,94 side don't know.

personally i think we are behind the great 1979 Liverpool side,and maybe the 1961 Spurs side,who i never saw but my family have told me lots about them,but i think we are in the top 2 in Europe at this time with Milan ,although there is not many good sides about at the present time.
First of all, I think that its been highlighted in several differant posts that many arsenal fans have ranted on about how great this arsenal team is. Secondly if they are supposedly better then the 99' united side, then you might aswell say that they are the best ever. I think that you have a serious problem relating good teams to teams that play good football. If your team flops in big games, when it matters, how can you honestly say that they are one of the greatest sides of all time? What you can do is say what we all say about the dutch team of 74 and 78, that they are the greatest side not to win all!!
european football like the EPL is very poor at the moment. When united won the league last season, i dont think that the league was that good either. I can at least admit that. Arsenal are nothing more then consistant showboaters. When they play good sides, unless there is little or no pressure attached to the game, they dont perform. Without henry playing well or playing at all, they rarely beat good teams. Henry was non existant, even when he came on in the FA cup. In the CL game he supposedly had a back injury, but when arsenal needed him most of all a few days later, he scored a hatrick to maintain an extremely edgy 9 point lead!!!:D
You just dont get it. Arsenal play the game the way it should be, but like last season, they can only do it when the pressure aint on. I dont recall all the greatest ever teams being accused of having no bottle, or not being able to do it when it matters, in time of pressure.....
united won the treble when the league and the CL was better then it is nowadays. Liverpool and Newcastle were far better back then then they are now. The 99 team and squad were far superior. our whole midfield was at its peak, Yorke and cole struck an amazing unlikely partnership and our defence was brilliant with Staam and Johnsen an amazing duo while playing together. Schmeichal of course being atthe helm. Solskaer, Sheringham,butt, brown, blomvist, berg were all good players. Most importantly was that team could win games and drag back games when it mattered. Many call it luck, I call it great mental strength. They did it so many times in so many games that season, it cant be simply just luck every time!!
Just a note though, I think that should arsenal get rid of their big game gitters, they would then be the team that most of their fans think.
 
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an edgy 9 point league?? not once this season have Arsenal not looked like league winners, by far and away the best team in the country, with Chelski as their only real rivals.

Butt, Blomquist and Berg are good players???

United's team of 1999 wasn't the best English team ever, so being better than them doesn't make Arsenal the best ever.

Arsenal don't perform against the top teams, i agree, Inter and Chelski and all the rest are shite.

European football is in decline, because you say so. this is the best CL for years, prem is stronger than ever, battle for 4th shows that.
 

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Doc_Rule said:
an edgy 9 point league?? not once this season have Arsenal not looked like league winners, by far and away the best team in the country, with Chelski as their only real rivals.
That was sarcasm. the league is won over 38 games, as opposed to a pressure cooker 2 game or 1 game knockout competition. United were 4 pioints clear until we lost rio, or dont you remember. Arsenal have been the best team over the season, but they have proven me right yet again rule, that they just cant do it when it matters, if there is pressure on them. The liverpool game was to some extent a pressure game, but it was hardly like playing when they have no lead at all. Where united or chelsea just behind them, I would imagine that they would of been even more nervous then they already looked. You were wrong rule and I was righht, about arsenal and their supposed bottle in this and that league game.
I said to you that the pressure games are in April and May, and I stand by it. If there are 7 games to go and you have a 9 point lead, you can hardly call that a hugely pressure game. Certainly not as much as the one last season between united and Arsenal at highbury.
United supposedly have more points now then last season. I dont think that anybody argues that we are as good as we were then, but that simply says that the league has really gone downhill since then.
As for the CL. Dont get me wrong, I think that its great for the game with the 4 semi finalists and all that,. But I think that it shows how poor euro football is. there are alot of great players around but not great teams. Chelsea are at best above average. Monaco beat Deportivo (the same deportivo that united have knocked out the last few seasons) 8-3 early on in the CL. Porto beat a very poor united in the last minute of the game. Both deport and Monaco went thru cause Milan and Madrid both underestimated them, its as simle as that. Chelsea are there cause they got an arsenal team that once again underperformed when it mattered most in europe, like they have done every season. Chelsea are a team with big names, but are not a great team.
 

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you just had a very lucky year Drummer,it doesn't mean you were great,the 2001 side amassed a record total of points,they were better than the 99 side,who beat our not fantastic side that year by 1 point.

the Spurs side of 61 and the Leeds side of the early 70s didn't win the EC but they are rightly called great sides,next you'll be saying Bremner and Giles were bottlers.

we are a great side just not quite as great as some others in history, if you don't accept that it's up to you,the Dutch side was also great as was Brazil 1982 :cool:

i think you should forget your obsession with us anyway,because you will be perennial 3rd placed the way things are going at your club,and you'll be battling it out with Newcastle for 4th when Parry gets his act together and appoints a proper manager for Liverpool,the show is over ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #7
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Jern Lizardhous said:
you just had a very lucky year Drummer,it doesn't mean you were great,the 2001 side amassed a record total of points,they were better than the 99 side,who beat our not fantastic side that year by 1 point.

the Spurs side of 61 and the Leeds side of the early 70s didn't win the EC but they are rightly called great sides,next you'll be saying Bremner and Giles were bottlers.

we are a great side just not quite as great as some others in history, if you don't accept that it's up to you,the Dutch side was also great as was Brazil 1982 :cool:

i think you should forget your obsession with us anyway,because you will be perennial 3rd placed the way things are going at your club,and you'll be battling it out with Newcastle for 4th when Parry gets his act together and appoints a proper manager for Liverpool,the show is over ;)
Like I said, theres a differance between teams that are great that dont win things, to teams that are great and win. The league was probobley better back in those days. I am not saying that a team with no bottle isnt good, but I have to laugh when you say that this arsenal team is better then the 99 united team. Its far easier to compare those teams as opposed to teams that played over 30 years ago. United won games when it mattered, simply as that, You call it luck quite simply cause you have no other explanation or moan to give. This arsenal team will not be compared with the united of 99 in the history books cause its futile to do so. They played great football, when the league was poor. Like most pundits say, until they win the CL, all they will be is a good EPL team.
As for my obsession with arsenal, i think that you should count how many posts you put in the United forum before you go shouthing that fromn the hills!!! Bit of a hypocrite there, or are you telling us that you go to the united forum to praise united!!!:D
 

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who cares what pundits say,you could only beat Brondby in the groups,struggled past Inter and Juve who were almost mid-table in Serie A,and won on set-pieces in the final,amazing luck. ;)

your 2001 team amassed 14 more points and had the EPL won by Easter,because they didn't have the luck in a cup competition like the CL doesn't mean anything,they proved in the League they were far better than the 99 side.

anything can happen in a one-off game when teams are incredibly focussed,as proved many times in history. ;)

as proved by Milan and the Arsenal both being out now,two teams that are far better than the others left in the competition.:cool:

but you carry on listening to the pundits Drummer,rather than watching games and forming your own opinions.
 
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Drummer, Arsenal are unbeaten this season, no matter who you had in your team, you wouldn't win the league.

And you were 4 points clear, but the Gooners had games in hand.

If Chelski are only "above average at best" then you are "poor at best".

Porto are a class team, monaco, depor and chelski are excellent as well.
 

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I don't know what is the best team ever in English league history. I only know that some people think that Liverpool in early '80 played excellent football. However, I can't compare both current Arsenal team with Liverpool at that era since I never watched them play. But I believe that current Arsenal team is one of the best in history because we are about breaking the record of unbeatable for whole season. And saying that if we manage to break record because the EPL teams this season is weaker than the ones in 20-30 years ago would be ridiculous statement.

The reason we failed in both CL and FA Cup is the tight schedule of many important matches which broke our concentration plus injuries problems sustained by some important Arsenal squad members. Last season, Ancelotti made a dangerous decision by sacrificing their chance on Italian Cup by only playing his reserves in order to stay focus on Serie A and CL. His strategy worked quite well but somehow they just won it and also CL. But Arsenal is different, we paid serious attention to every match of competitions we participate in.

No team can keep their stamina at top form when they're forced to face many important matches at once, it's like having a lot of final exam in a day. And it's not like Chelsea and Man Utd. beat us with big margin, each was won only by one goal difference. From six matches, we only sustain two defeats which tragically ended our campaign in both tournaments and still made good results again Liverpool and Newcastle, unlike Real Madrid whose ass were kicked hard by Osasuna in Santiago Bernabeu even when they're already eliminated from other two tournaments. Could it be possibly worse ? Of course, it could be worse. Just look at Chelsea recently, the tight schedule made them lose consistency against smaller teams.

Sometimes I wonder why people underrate Arsenal so much just because we haven't won any CL. We play good and beautiful football that even 'Total Football' master, Johan Cruyff himself can't hide his admiration toward us. Sure, we're probably not the best in Europe and haven't succeeded in our treble campaign so far, but we did win things. Besides, if we really get 'treble winners', seriously I don't want us to be compared to Man Utd. '99. There're teams in CL history which are better than Man Utd. '99 such as AC Milan 1988/1989 or FC Barcelona 'El Dream Team'.
 

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Arsenal doesn't lack bottle, but Henry does, and Arsenal play around Henry. As good as he is he really hasn't come up with a campaign saving goal ever- this usually falls to Pires or Freddie. As well, Reyes was up for the Chelsea semi, but because Henry doesn't always play for Reyes (despite what he says, Henry doesn't really play for anyone) the play kept going through the bottle-less #14 and letting the entire team down. Its a shame.
 

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Jern Lizardhous said:
you just had a very lucky year Drummer,it doesn't mean you were great,the 2001 side amassed a record total of points,they were better than the 99 side,who beat our not fantastic side that year by 1 point.

the Spurs side of 61 and the Leeds side of the early 70s didn't win the EC but they are rightly called great sides,next you'll be saying Bremner and Giles were bottlers.

we are a great side just not quite as great as some others in history, if you don't accept that it's up to you,the Dutch side was also great as was Brazil 1982 :cool:

i think you should forget your obsession with us anyway,because you will be perennial 3rd placed the way things are going at your club,and you'll be battling it out with Newcastle for 4th when Parry gets his act together and appoints a proper manager for Liverpool,the show is over ;)
Jern, does it come to this, polarising your argument to such an extent that you start this crap about lucky years again:rolleyes:

If we're talking about Leeds, then whilst I wouldn't call Bremner and Giles bottlers, I would definitely call Revie a bottler. Never had the guts to go on the offensive in the big matches, safety first football. Thats why they were perenial runners up. Will Wenger mirror that mentality (i.e. continue to get it wrong in the really important games?).

As for Liverpool superceding us:howler: I assume that is bone being thrown Doc's way because he has decided to chuck in his lot with the gooners in his warped scouse crusade against United;) :tongue:
 

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Zhuge Liang said:
I don't know what is the best team ever in English league history. I only know that some people think that Liverpool in early '80 played excellent football. However, I can't compare both current Arsenal team with Liverpool at that era since I never watched them play. But I believe that current Arsenal team is one of the best in history because we are about breaking the record of unbeatable for whole season. And saying that if we manage to break record because the EPL teams this season is weaker than the ones in 20-30 years ago would be ridiculous statement.

The reason we failed in both CL and FA Cup is the tight schedule of many important matches which broke our concentration plus injuries problems sustained by some important Arsenal squad members. Last season, Ancelotti made a dangerous decision by sacrificing their chance on Italian Cup by only playing his reserves in order to stay focus on Serie A and CL. His strategy worked quite well but somehow they just won it and also CL. But Arsenal is different, we paid serious attention to every match of competitions we participate in.

No team can keep their stamina at top form when they're forced to face many important matches at once, it's like having a lot of final exam in a day. And it's not like Chelsea and Man Utd. beat us with big margin, each was won only by one goal difference. From six matches, we only sustain two defeats which tragically ended our campaign in both tournaments and still made good results again Liverpool and Newcastle, unlike Real Madrid whose ass were kicked hard by Osasuna in Santiago Bernabeu even when they're already eliminated from other two tournaments. Could it be possibly worse ? Of course, it could be worse. Just look at Chelsea recently, the tight schedule made them lose consistency against smaller teams.

Sometimes I wonder why people underrate Arsenal so much just because we haven't won any CL. We play good and beautiful football that even 'Total Football' master, Johan Cruyff himself can't hide his admiration toward us. Sure, we're probably not the best in Europe and haven't succeeded in our treble campaign so far, but we did win things. Besides, if we really get 'treble winners', seriously I don't want us to be compared to Man Utd. '99. There're teams in CL history which are better than Man Utd. '99 such as AC Milan 1988/1989 or FC Barcelona 'El Dream Team'.

Nicely put there Zhuge!:thumbsup:
 

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Okay, I've been a lurker for a little while, but I've got to say something about all this bottling nonsense. Why is it that everything Arsenal does is viewed with so little perspective? We make a miraculous escape in the CL and suddenly we're going to win the treble, we lose two games and it's all over. Henry tears Inter apart and he's better than Cruyff, he doesn't score for a whopping NINETY MINUTES and he's a useless bottler with no character. Arsenal players jump up and down and it's the worst incident in the history of football, Bayern and Real have an on-field brawl and no one even mentions it.

The only people who ever mentioned the treble are ManU supporters and media hacks. No Arsenal supporter I know really thought we were going to win the treble, in fact we were at best third favourite for the CL, and with less chance than our performances decreed due to our lack of a winning European tradition.

THierry Henry is a magnificent player and as good as any other in the world at the moment. But he can't play on big occasions. Like his hat trick against Liverpool? No, liverpool aren't a great team anymore. Then you mean like his nine goals against Man U? No, league games don't count as big games (how convenient). Then you mean like his goals against Inter, Roma, Juventus, Valencia and his standing as fourth highest scorer in CL history despite playing for a team that constantly underachieves? No, only knock out games count. Like his two against Celta Vigo? No, only one off's like FA cup finals. So he wouldn't be a bottler if Henchoz hadn't cleared off the line with his hand, and he wasn't blatantly dragged back against Southampton? But he hasn't performed in an international tournament. Like winning the Confederations cup single handed? No, only big tournaments count. Like his goals in WC98 and Euro 2000? No, they were in the group stages. Then his goal against Portugal in the QFs? No, the final is what really matters. So what this comes down to is the fact that Henry was France's best player in the Euro 2000 final but didn't score, and an FA cup final against Southampton is a bigger game than a title decider against ManU. Right.

Are Arsenal as a team Bottlers? How can a team that's undefeated in the league be bottlers? You would think that if Arsenal were bottlers, they would crack in situations like going a man down against a battling Everton, a bizarre own goal opener against city, bieng completely outplayed and going behind against Liverpool (first time), coming up against Man U at OT after a disastrous run of form and results, Newcastle twice drawing level, one nil down against Chelsea's impregnable defence half way through second half (FA cup), Chelsea opening the scoring after thirty seconds, going in at half time down to Liverpool with your season on the cusp of disaster and everyone predicting your demise, being two minutes away from a group stage CL exit, as I said you would think that a team of bottlers would have cracked under these situations.

As it stands Arsenal have shown remarkable resilience this season, and the only reason such disappointment has been attatched to the demise of the cup runs, is because they were to Chelsea and ManU, to which we can only thank unfavourable draws. Arsenal didn't bottle it against Chelsea, they picked up a more than deserved away draw, and played extremely well in the first half of the second leg, only to run out of steam in the second half to be undone by two keeper errors and a sucker punch. If Arsenal had lost to Depor after putting up a brave, yet ill-fated resistance, no-one would really care.

As for the FA Cup semi, it was hardly a surprise and the only people putting any creedence in that result are ManU supporters. That was United's biggest game of the season, it wasn't even our biggest game of the week. Throw in a string of missed chances and handballs and it just wasn't meant to be.

I think this whole lack of character accusation comes down to the way we surrendered the title last season. However, the current team is completely different to the one of twelve months ago. In fact in one of the games we dropped points last year (maybe Blackburn) after an early injury to Cygan, we played a back four of GVB, Keown, Gilberto, Oleg. Compare that to the current best defence in the league and add the loss of Vieira, Freddie and seveal other outfielders at various times coupled with the presence of Seaman, and the collapse is still not excusable, but has nothing to do with the character of our current first team.
 

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These are really long posts for someone who doesn't care about Arsenal and EPL(not to mention i don't understand what this bottle expression EVERYWHERE in XT is all about)

I just wanted to say that Arsenal are a beauty to watch and this team will definitely remain in history but as what?

You might be remembered as those great Spurs or Leeds sides that nobody outside UK remembers or has heard of.It's in your hand though to be remembered like Man U's treble team(a legend that will live for decades,you like it or not),Cruyff's Barça,half 90's Milan,Lippi's Juve,80's Liverpool,Herrera's Inter,50's Madrid etc.

For that,Arsenal needs European Glory.If you don't want all this to go down the memory lane Arsenal MUST win the CL,you can't pretend nothing wrong is going on,you have to concentrate 100% on it and try to win it.Because no matter if you winn 50 games in EPL,Chelsea is on the semis and it's unexplainable how you let that happen
 

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Fred.you have to talk down to Drummer , he doesn't have his own opinions really,he only took up this bottling argument three months ago,before that he had a different argument,that we couldn't play two ways,but you tell me what the difference between 99 and 2001 sides in the CL,did the United players just lose their bottle after 99 in CL ? it's a ridiculous argument because they broke the EPL record for a points total and it still stands,well until this season.I am sorry to say it was lucky but it was,nothing wrong with that though,to achieve something like that luck is imperative and United got loads,they also had a tremendous desire and determination and belief,where did that go to in the subsequent years,did they all lose the plot?

the fact is we had a terrible half against Chelsea where our midfield didn't turn up,maybe Edu and Pires lacked bottle because they didn't play enough football in that half,but that was one half,the F.A.Cup game was a different thing,it being 3rd priority,of course Wenger wanted to win it,but to start with Aliadiere showed where his priorities lie,even if i was gutted because i love the Cup,Wenger has this obsession with the CL,as far as i can see Wenger made know decisions in the Chelsea game wrongly,just our midfield let us down,the defence were like dogs though.

United have failed in far more knockout games in the CL than us,was it all lack of bottle ?

I don't really remember Revie,but his team once played 6 games in a fortnight when they were going for the treble,do you reckon that might have had anything to do with it ?

I don't throw anything to Doc, that is my opinion that United are on the way down,Ferguson hasn't done anything right in three years and he has no youth team to help him out this time,i reckon the cycle has ended and Liverpool have a big chance to turn the screw if they appoint a good manager. ;)

of course i can see through Doc as his hatred for United is legendary and it does make him talk some nutty stuff at times, and i know there are some decent United fans especially here on Xtratime we have your goodself,DD,A&K,Shahed,Pav are all seriously ok,Drummer,Shaf and Kobra are the axis of evil and need to be destroyed though.:D
 

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Chris said:
Arsenal doesn't lack bottle, but Henry does, and Arsenal play around Henry. As good as he is he really hasn't come up with a campaign saving goal ever- this usually falls to Pires or Freddie. As well, Reyes was up for the Chelsea semi, but because Henry doesn't always play for Reyes (despite what he says, Henry doesn't really play for anyone) the play kept going through the bottle-less #14 and letting the entire team down. Its a shame.
well the goals in Inter were pretty campaign saving Chris,as was his header against Moskow the other year,we would have been out and there was only five minutes left,his goal in the Mestalla dragged us back into it last year.

the rest of your post is even worse,the play didn't go through him against Chelsea,he rarely got the ball because our midfield had such a mare,i counted Ljungberg whack three long balls in the first ten minutes of that half towards him,now we all know he can't do anything with balls in the air.

the bit about Reyes and him and how he doesn't play for anyone could have been lifted from a tabloid, Reyes has just arrived so how you can judge that is beyond me,but ask Pires,Wiltord and Ljungberg if Henry only plays for himself,how many goals has he given them in the last three years ,iwould guess about half of them.

ask Trezeguet if Henry only plays for himself, your post is terrible,Chris.
 

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great post bowman. ;)

you know that when you judge Henry or the Arsenal there is a different set of rules applied,i have tried that one about him being the best player in the Euro 2000 final,but apparently that is meaningless because he didn't score,he couldn't have played well and must have bottled it.;)

the semi final goal against Portugal was i'm told a lucky defelection and must be struck from the record books. :D
 
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