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The Maestro
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1,191 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Similar to what was explained in the thread about Argentines, this is the same result applied to Brazilians.

What do you notice strange or meaningless?

50. RENATO GAÚCHO (Wing-Forward - 1980's)
49. COUTINHO (Striker - 1960's)
48. DIRCEU LOPES (Trequartista - 1960's/1970's)
47. CLÁUDIO (Support Striker - 1940's/1950's)
46. BAUER, José Carlos (Defensive Midfielder - 1940's/1950's)
45. LÚCIO (Central Defender - 2000's)
44. LUÍS PEREIRA (Central Defender - 1970's)
43. DANILO ALVIM (Defensive Midfielder - 1940's/1950's)
42. HELENO de Freitas (Striker - 1940's)
41. ALTAFINI, José (Striker - 1950's/1960's)
40. ROBERTO DINAMITE (Striker - 1970's/1980's)
39. LEANDRO (Lateral Defender - 1980's)
38. RAÍ (Attacking Midfielder - 1990's)
37. TONINHO CEREZO (Central Midfielder - 1970's/1980's)
36. REINALDO (Striker - 1970's/1980's)
35. BEBETO (Support Striker - 1980's/1990's)
34. GILMAR (Goalkeeper - 1950's/1960's)
33. PEPE (Wing-Forward - 1950's/1960's)
32. JAIR (Trequartista - 1940's/1950's)
31. CARECA (Striker - 1980's)
30. FRIEDENREICH, Arthur (Striker - 1910's/1920's)
29. DOMINGOS da Guia (Central Defender - 1930's/1940's)
28. CAFU (Lateral Defender - 1990's/2000's)
27. ADEMIR da Guia (Attacking Midfielder - 1960's/1970's)
26. CARLOS ALBERTO (Lateral Defender - 1960's/1970's)
25. DANI ALVES (Lateral Defender - 2000's/2010's)
24. GÉRSON (Attacking Midfielder - 1960's/1970's)
23. SÓCRATES (Attacking Midfielder - 1970's/1980's)
22. TOSTÃO (Trequartista - 1960's/1970's)
21. JÚNIOR (Lateral Defender - 1980's)
20. JAIRZINHO (Wing-Forward - 1960's/1970's)
19. KAKÁ (Trequartista - 2000's)
18. JULINHO (Wing-Forward - 1950's)
17. NEYMAR (Support Striker - 2010's)
16. DJALMA SANTOS (Lateral Defender - 1950's/1960's)
15. NÍLTON SANTOS (Lateral Defender - 1950's/1960's)
14. ROBERTO CARLOS (Lateral Defender - 1990's/2000's)
13. ADEMIR de Menezes (Striker - 1940's/1950's)
12. LEÔNIDAS (Support Striker - 1930's/1940's)
11. RIVALDO (Trequartista - 1990's/2000's)
10. RIVELLINO, Roberto (Attacking Midfielder - 1970's)
09. DIDI (Attacking Midfielder - 1950's/1960's)
08. FALCÃO, Paulo Roberto (Central Midfielder - 1970's/1980's)
07. ZIZINHO (Trequartista - 1940's)
06. GARRINCHA (Wing-Forward - 1950's/1960's)
05. RONALDINHO (Trequartista - 2000's)
04. ROMÁRIO (Striker - 1990's)
03. RONALDO (Striker - 1990's/2000's)
02. ZICO (Trequartista - 1970's/1980's)
01. PELÉ (Support Striker - 1960's)


By roles:

Goalkeepers: Gilmar
Central Defenders: Domingos, Luís Pereira, Lúcio
Lateral Defenders: Roberto Carlos, Nílton Santos, Djalma Santos, Júnior, Dani Alves, Carlos Alberto, Cafu, Leandro
Defensive Midfielders: Danilo Alvim, Bauer
Central Midfielders: Falcão, Toninho Cerezo
Attacking Midfielders: Didi, Rivellino, Sócrates, Gérson, Ademir da Guia, Raí
Trequartistas: Zico, Ronaldinho, Zizinho, Rivaldo, Kaká, Tostão, Jair, Dirceu Lopes
Wing-Forwards: Garrincha, Julinho, Jairzinho, Pepe, Renato Gaúcho
Support Strikers: Pelé, Leônidas, Neymar, Bebeto, Cláudio
Strikers: Ronaldo, Romário, Ademir de Menezes, Friedenreich, Careca, Reinaldo, Roberto Dinamite, Altafini, Heleno, Coutinho

By primes:

1910's/1920's:
Friedenreich
1930's/1940's: Leônidas, Domingos
1940's: Zizinho, Heleno
1940's/1950's: Ademir de Menezes, Jair, Danilo Alvim, Bauer, Cláudio
1950's: Julinho
1950's/1960's: Garrincha, Didi, Nílton Santos, Djalma Santos, Pepe, Gilmar, Altafini
1960's: Pelé, Coutinho
1960's/1970's: Jairzinho, Tostão, Gérson, Carlos Alberto, Ademir da Guia, Dirceu Lopes
1970's: Rivellino, Luís Pereira
1970's/1980's: Zico, Falcão, Sócrates, Reinaldo, Toninho Cerezo, Roberto Dinamite
1980's: Júnior, Careca, Leandro, Renato Gaúcho
1980's/1990's: Bebeto
1990's: Romário, Raí
1990's/2000's: Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Roberto Carlos, Cafu
2000's: Ronaldinho, Kaká, Lúcio
2000's/2010's: Dani Alves
2010's: Neymar
 

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1. Pele 2.Garrincha 3.Ronaldo 4.Zico 5.Didi 6.Romario 7.Falcao 8.Ronaldinho 9. Rivaldo 10.Neymar
11.Roberto Carlos 12.Jairzinho 13.Altafini 14.Socrates 15.Rivelino 16.Zizinho 17.Tostao 18.Leonidas 19.Ademir de Menezes 20. Dani Alves
21.Kaka 22.Gerson 23.Vava 24.Cafu 25.Julinho 26.Nilton Santos 27.Thiago Silva 28.Luis Pereira 29.Djalma Santos 30.Marcelo
31.Junior 32.T. Cerezo 33.Domingos 34.Dirceu Guimaraes 35.Lucio 36.Ademir de Guia 37.Mauro Silva 38.Danilo Alvim 39.Bebeto 40.Gilmar
41.Careca 42. Carlos Alberto 43.Friedenreich 44.Eder 45.Juninho Pernambucano 46.Jair Pinto 47. Aldair 48.Casemiro 49.Mauro Ramos 50 .Robinho

TOP 50 compared to the Glavisted ranking 78 %
Not my TOP 50 : Pepe (33th Glavisted) , Reinaldo (36), Rai (38), Leandro (39), R. Dinamite (40) ,Heleno (42) ,Bauer (46), Claudio Christovam (48), Dirceu Lopes (48) , A. H. Coutinho (49), Renato Gaucho (50)

too high inside top 50 :
- 16 C.Alberto -14 Jair Pinto -13 Friedenreich -13 D.Santos -11 N.Santos -10 Junior -10 Careca -9 Ademir De Guia

too low inside top 50 :
+28 Altafini +16 Luis Pereira +10 Lucio + 9 Socrates +8Jairzinho +7 Neymar

(next my rank: 51. Evaristo Macedo 52. A. H.Coutinho.....)
 

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oic
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He wastes so many time and yet make awful choices.

Garrincha is the Second best. After Pelé. Everyone knows that.

He was decisive in 1958. Specially with two assists in the final game against sweden.

And was the Man of 1962 WC.

What did Zico do?
 

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He wastes so many time and yet make awful choices.

Garrincha is the Second best. After Pelé. Everyone knows that.

He was decisive in 1958. Specially with two assists in the final game against sweden.

And was the Man of 1962 WC.

What did Zico do?
I know this is also JCamilo's opinion but Glavisted is not putting some nobody at #2 so I think we remain in the "open for a debate" range. It is much worse to put some nobody in the top100 than one rather another at #2 when we talk about two top of the top players anyway (of different ages).
 

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oic
Joined
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2,027 Posts
I know this is also JCamilo's opinion but Glavisted is not putting some nobody at #2 so I think we remain in the "open for a debate" range. It is much worse to put some nobody in the top100 than one rather another at #2 when we talk about two top of the top players anyway (of different ages).

My rank is

1) Pelé.
2) Garrincha
3) Zico/Romário/Ronaldo/Zizinho/Didi

4) others.
 

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The Maestro
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1,191 Posts
Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Garrincha is the Second best. After Pelé. Everyone knows that.

He was decisive in 1958. Specially with two assists in the final game against sweden.

And was the Man of 1962 WC.
This is precisely the superficial reasoning that I try to avoid, I mean, the usual response referring to 2 World Cups, which no matter how important and romanticized they are, barely represent 10 matches (4 in 1958 and 6 in 1962) of a career in which he played about 400 (2.5% that in no logical way could become the basis of his career, not even giving it a great added value for the instance).

To be able to refer to him must refer to all of his seasons, from 1953 to 1966 (it's probably appropiate to put aside how diminished and anecdotal his career was after then), going through each Campeonato Carioca, Torneio Río-São Paulo, the peculiar Torneio Início and Campeonato Brasileiro (which couldn't win in the 1960's, although he was finalist in 1962), in addition to his 50-60 international matches, but not only in the World Cups, but also in the South American Championships, World Cup qualifiers and some interesting friendlies.

Apart from that, it's not about specifying his best and going with that single sample for comparison, but of averaging all his ups and downs. About him it is as important as unpopular to point out that he debuted at 19/20 years old (a bit older compared to those in the top), that despite being recognized for his dribbling skills, it took 5 seasons to really explode locally in the 1957 Campeonato Carioca, because before that he was recognized as a player with little intelligence to the team work, little effectiveness and having pace problems in contrast to his talent (also the reason why he could not compete for a position with the Brazilian national team against Julinho until he left for Italy), and that he also had a very fast decline (basically after the 1962 World Cup).

All that also corresponds to Garrincha and negatively weighs.

On the other hand, "Garrincha is the second best after Pelé" idea it's not a known fact (evidently), but only a popular idea (in my opinion, due to limited perspectives and knowledge in the vast majority of cases).

What did Zico do?
In this system the clear difference with respect to Garrincha are established in terms of prime time (Zico was for sure a world-class player for the longest time), but let me add that I also think there is a certain difference in peak performance (Zico had a superior technical repertoire, vision, hitting precision (standing or moving) and creativity, with which he was not only a prominent continental star in the second half of the 1970's, but also rivaled face to face with the potential of the emerging Maradona in physical fullness and beats Platini in prime).

In the system sample, their raw scales:
  • 1st (1), 2nd (0.8), 3rd (0.6) (best footballers of the season)
  • 4th (0.5), 5th (0.4), 6th (0.3), 7th (0.2) (contenders for the best footballers of the season)
  • Top 23 (1)
  • Honorable Mention (0.5) (around the Top 60-100)
Garrincha

1953 -
Honorable Mention (+0.5)
1957 - Top 23 (+1)
1958 - Top 23 (+1)
1959 - Top 23 (+1)
1960 - Top 23 (+1)
1961 - Top 23 | 3rd (1. Pelé, 2. Sívori, 3. Garrincha, 4. Spencer...) (+1.6)
1962 - Top 23 | 1st/2nd (1. Pelé/Garrincha, 2. Pelé/Garrincha, 3. Masopust...) (+1.8/+2)

Zico

1974 -
Top 23 (+1)
1975 - Top 23 | 5th (1. Figueroa, 2. Blokhin, 3. Alonso, 4. Beckenbauer, 5. Zico...) (+1.4)
1976 - Top 23 | 5th (1. Figueroa, 2. Rivellino, 3. Rensenbrink, 4. Beckenbauer, 5. Zico, 6. Passarella...) (+1.4)
1977 - Top 23 | 3rd (1. Cruyff, 2. Keegan, 3. Zico, 4. Platini...) (+1.6)
1978 - Honorable Mention (0.5)
1979 - Top 23 | 2nd (1. Maradona, 2. Zico, 3. Keegan...) (+1.8)
1980 - Top 23 | 2nd (1. Maradona, 2. Zico, 3. Rummenigge...) (+1.8)
1981 - Top 23 | 1st (1. Zico, 2. Maradona, 3. Rummenigge...) (+2)
1982 - Top 23 | 1st (1. Zico, 2. Falcão, 3. Giresse...) (+2)
1983 - Top 23 | 2nd (1. Platini, 2. Zico, 3. Falcão...) (+1.8)
1984 - Top 23 | 5th (1. Platini, 2. Rush, 3. Francescoli, 4. Tigana, 5. Zico...) (+1.4)
1985 - Honorable Mention (+0.5)
1987 - Honorable Mention (+0.5)

I struggle to see how Garrincha could surpass or even catch up with Zico from any point of view (skills, prominence in their time, consistency...).
 

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oic
Joined
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2,027 Posts
This is precisely the superficial reasoning that I try to avoid, I mean, the usual response referring to 2 World Cups, which no matter how important and romanticized they are, barely represent 10 matches (4 in 1958 and 6 in 1962) of a career in which he played about 400 (2.5% that in no logical way could become the basis of his career, not even giving it a great added value for the instance).

To be able to refer to him must refer to all of his seasons, from 1953 to 1966 (it's probably appropiate to put aside how diminished and anecdotal his career was after then), going through each Campeonato Carioca, Torneio Río-São Paulo, the peculiar Torneio Início and Campeonato Brasileiro (which couldn't win in the 1960's, although he was finalist in 1962), in addition to his 50-60 international matches, but not only in the World Cups, but also in the South American Championships, World Cup qualifiers and some interesting friendlies.

Apart from that, it's not about specifying his best and going with that single sample for comparison, but of averaging all his ups and downs. About him it is as important as unpopular to point out that he debuted at 19/20 years old (a bit older compared to those in the top), that despite being recognized for his dribbling skills, it took 5 seasons to really explode locally in the 1957 Campeonato Carioca, because before that he was recognized as a player with little intelligence to the team work, little effectiveness and having pace problems in contrast to his talent (also the reason why he could not compete for a position with the Brazilian national team against Julinho until he left for Italy), and that he also had a very fast decline (basically after the 1962 World Cup).

All that also corresponds to Garrincha and negatively weighs.

On the other hand, "Garrincha is the second best after Pelé" idea it's not a known fact (evidently), but only a popular idea (in my opinion, due to limited perspectives and knowledge in the vast majority of cases).


In this system the clear difference with respect to Garrincha are established in terms of prime time (Zico was for sure a world-class player for the longest time), but let me add that I also think there is a certain difference in peak performance (Zico had a superior technical repertoire, vision, hitting precision (standing or moving) and creativity, with which he was not only a prominent continental star in the second half of the 1970's, but also rivaled face to face with the potential of the emerging Maradona in physical fullness and beats Platini in prime).

In the system sample, their raw scales:
  • 1st (1), 2nd (0.8), 3rd (0.6) (best footballers of the season)
  • 4th (0.5), 5th (0.4), 6th (0.3), 7th (0.2) (contenders for the best footballers of the season)
  • Top 23 (1)
  • Honorable Mention (0.5) (around the Top 60-100)
Garrincha

1953 -
Honorable Mention (+0.5)
1957 - Top 23 (+1)
1958 - Top 23 (+1)
1959 - Top 23 (+1)
1960 - Top 23 (+1)
1961 - Top 23 | 3rd (1. Pelé, 2. Sívori, 3. Garrincha, 4. Spencer...) (+1.6)
1962 - Top 23 | 1st/2nd (1. Pelé/Garrincha, 2. Pelé/Garrincha, 3. Masopust...) (+1.8/+2)

Zico

1974 -
Top 23 (+1)
1975 - Top 23 | 5th (1. Figueroa, 2. Blokhin, 3. Alonso, 4. Beckenbauer, 5. Zico...) (+1.4)
1976 - Top 23 | 5th (1. Figueroa, 2. Rivellino, 3. Rensenbrink, 4. Beckenbauer, 5. Zico, 6. Passarella...) (+1.4)
1977 - Top 23 | 3rd (1. Cruyff, 2. Keegan, 3. Zico, 4. Platini...) (+1.6)
1978 - Honorable Mention (0.5)
1979 - Top 23 | 2nd (1. Maradona, 2. Zico, 3. Keegan...) (+1.8)
1980 - Top 23 | 2nd (1. Maradona, 2. Zico, 3. Rummenigge...) (+1.8)
1981 - Top 23 | 1st (1. Zico, 2. Maradona, 3. Rummenigge...) (+2)
1982 - Top 23 | 1st (1. Zico, 2. Falcão, 3. Giresse...) (+2)
1983 - Top 23 | 2nd (1. Platini, 2. Zico, 3. Falcão...) (+1.8)
1984 - Top 23 | 5th (1. Platini, 2. Rush, 3. Francescoli, 4. Tigana, 5. Zico...) (+1.4)
1985 - Honorable Mention (+0.5)
1987 - Honorable Mention (+0.5)

I struggle to see how Garrincha could surpass or even catch up with Zico from any point of view (skills, prominence in their time, consistency...).
Your work looks like a Ph.D thesis.

I am a drunkman in a bar.
 
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