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The Maestro
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi mates. This is not a common topic on impressions, but the results of a subjective calculation and I'd be interested to know how logical you see the order of this top 50 (beyond differences about it).

I explain how it turns out. Since 1920 I've classified the top 23 players in the world for each season (to date there are 102 seasons). Of those 23 I choose the first 3 (1st, 2nd and 3rd) and also possible contenders (4th, 5th, 6th and/or 7th). Then, I make a list of honorable mentions, who can be a maximum of 77.

The original premise from which the idea derives corresponds to this thread.

About selections, I do sums like this:

+1 for players in each top 23
+1 for players in 1st place, +0.8 in 2nd place and +0.6 in 3rd place
+0.5 for possible contender in 4th place, +0.4 in 5th place, +0.3 in 6th place, +0.2 in 7th place
+0.5 for players in honorable mentions
+0.5 by bonus of stellar prominence in major events
x1.5, x1.4, x1.3, x1.2 or x1.1 depending on the level of competition of the tournaments played in their own eras

This can be cumbersome, but my interest now is only by the results. For example, I grouped all Argentines and ordered the best 50 by points. How logical does the overall order look?

I must remember that as is a system based on values per season, so the prominence and consistency of their careers outweigh certain specific moments with their national team (this makes a popular player for specific episodes with the Argentine national team, such as Claudio Caniggia, are not so favored if they don't have great seasons at club level in high competition.

What do you notice strange or meaningless?

50. VARALLO, Francisco (Striker - 1930's)
49. AYALA, Roberto (Central Defender - 2000's)
48. HOUSEMAN, René (Wing-Forward - 1970's)
47. RUGGERI, Oscar (Central Defender - 1980's/1990's)
46. BOYÉ, Mario (Wing-Forward - 1940's)
45. GARCÍA, Enrique (Wing-Forward - 1930's/1940's)
44. LAZZATTI, Ernesto (Defensive Midfielder - 1930's/1940's)
43. PEUCELLE, Carlos (Wing-Forward - 1930's)
42. ONEGA, Ermindo (Trequartista - 1960's)
41. CRESPO, Hernán (Striker - 1990's/2000's)
40. SALOMÓN, José (Central Defender - 1940's)
39. MARZOLINI, Silvio (Lateral Defender - 1960's)
38. ARDILES, Osvaldo (Central Midfielder - 1970's/1980's)
37. PERFUMO, Roberto (Central Defender - 1960's/1970's)
36. BRINDISI, Miguel Ángel (Central Midfielder - 1970's/1980's)
35. VERÓN, Juan Sebastián (Central Midfielder - 1990's/2000's)
34. TÉVEZ, Carlos (Support Striker - 2000's/2010's)
33. FERREYRA, Bernabé (Striker - 1930's)
32. CHERRO, Roberto (Support Striker - 1920's/1930's)
31. FERREIRA, Manuel (Support Striker - 1920's/1930's)
30. ROSSI, Néstor (Defensive Midfielder - 1940's/1950's)
29. ARTIME, Luis (Striker - 1960's)
28. SEOANE, Manuel (Support Striker - 1920's)
27. SANFILIPPO, José (Support Striker - 1950's/1960's)
26. AGÜERO, Sergio (Striker - 2010's)
25. ZANETTI, Javier (Lateral Defender - 1990's/2000's)
24. LOUSTAU, Félix (Wing-Forward - 1940's/1950's)
23. CORBATTA, Omar (Wing-Forward - 1950's/1960's)
22. PONTONI, René (Striker - 1940's)
21. REDONDO, Fernando (Defensive Midfielder - 1990's)
20. CARRIZO, Amadeo (Goalkeeper - 1950's/1960's)
19. ALONSO, Norberto (Trequartista - 1970's/1980's)
18. MARTINO, Rinaldo (Trequartista - 1940's)
17. LABRUNA, Ángel (Support Striker - 1940's/1950's)
16. MÉNDEZ, Norberto (Trequartista - 1940's)
15. BOCHINI, Ricardo (Attacking Midfielder - 1970's/1980's)
14. RIQUELME, Juan Román (Attacking Midfielder - 2000's)
13. KEMPES, Mario (Support Striker - 1970's)
12. FILLOL, Ubaldo (Goalkeeper - 1970's/1980's)
11. MONTI, Luis (Defensive Midfielder - 1920's/1930's)
10. BATISTUTA, Gabriel (Striker - 1990's)
09. ORSI, Raimundo (Wing-Forward - 1920's/1930's)
08. SASTRE, Antonio (Trequartista - 1930's/1940's)
07. SÍVORI, Omar (Trequartista - 1950's/1960's)
06. PASSARELLA, Daniel (Central Defender - 1970's/1980's)
05. PEDERNERA, Adolfo (Trequartista - 1940's)
04. MORENO, José Manuel (Trequartista - 1930's/1940's)
03. DI STÉFANO, Alfredo (Support Striker - 1950's)
02. MARADONA, Diego (Trequartista - 1980's)
01. MESSI, Lionel (Support Striker - 2010's)


By roles:

Goalkeepers: Fillol, Carrizo
Central Defenders: Passarella, Perfumo, Salomón, Ruggeri, Ayala
Lateral Defenders: Zanetti, Marzolini
Defensive Midfielders: Monti, Redondo, Rossi, Lazzatti
Central Midfielders: Verón, Brindisi, Ardiles
Attacking Midfielders: Riquelme, Bochini
Trequartistas: Maradona, Moreno, Pedernera, Sívori, Sastre, Méndez, Martino, Alonso, Onega
Wing-Forwards: Orsi, Corbatta, Loustau, Peucelle, García, Boyé, Houseman
Support Strikers: Messi, Di Stéfano, Kempes, Labruna, Sanfilippo, Seoane, Ferreira, Cherro, Tévez
Strikers: Batistuta, Pontoni, Agüero, Artime, Ferreyra, Crespo, Varallo

By primes:

1920's:
Seoane
1920's/1930's: Orsi, Monti, Ferreira, Cherro
1930's: Ferreyra, Peucelle, Varallo
1930's/1940's: Moreno, Sastre, Lazzatti, García
1940's: Pedernera, Méndez, Martino, Pontoni, Salomón, Boyé
1940's/1950's: Labruna, Loustau, Rossi
1950's: Di Stéfano
1950's/1960's: Sívori, Carrizo, Corbatta, Sanfilippo
1960's: Artime, Marzolini, Onega
1960's/1970's: Perfumo
1970's: Kempes, Houseman
1970's/1980's: Passarella, Fillol, Bochini, Alonso, Brindisi, Ardiles
1980's: Maradona
1980's/1990's: Ruggeri
1990's: Batistuta, Redondo
1990's/2000's: Zanetti, Verón, Crespo
2000's: Riquelme, Ayala
2000's/2010's: Tévez
2010's: Messi, Agüero
 

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1.Messi 2.Maradona 3.Di Stefano 4.Moreno 5.Batistuta 6.Passarella 7.Kempes 8.Aguero 9. Zanetti 10.Loustau
11.Di Maria 12. Redondo 13.Mascherano 14.Ardiles 15.Pedernera 16.Caniggia 17.Labruna 18.Higuain 19.Marzolini 20.Artime
21.Tevez 22.Crespo 23.Rossi 24.Riquelme 25.J.S. Veron 26.Corbatta 27.Carrizo 28.D.Milito 29.Bertoni 30.Bochini
31.Mas 32.Brindisi 33.Samuel 34. Roberto Ayala 35.Bianchi 36.Valdano 37.Ruggeri 38.Onnis 39.Burruchaga 40.Sastre
41.Simeone 42.Fillol 43.N.Mendez 44.N.Alonso 45.Dybala 46.Yazalde 47.Perfumo 48.Tarantini 49.Banega 50.Luque

TOP 50 compared to the Glavisted ranking 64 %
Not my TOP 50 : Sivori in ITA, Orsi ITA, Monti ITA , Martino (18th Glavisted rank), Pontoni (22) , Sanfilippo (27), Seoane (28), M.Ferreira (31), Cherro (32), B.Ferreyra (33), Salomon (40), E.Onega (42), Peucelle (43), Lazzatti (44), E.Garcia (45), Boye (46), Houseman (48), Varallo (50)

too high inside top 50 :
- 30 Fillol -27 N.Mendez -25 Alonso -22 Sastre- 15 Bochini -10 Riquelme- 10 Ruggeri

too low inside top 50 :
+28 Ardiles +20 Marzolini +20 Crespo +18 Aguero +16 Zanetti +15 R.Ayala + 14 Loustau

(next my rank: 51. E.Garcia 52.Gatti....)
 

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Interesting post, but Riquelme ahead of Tevez, Redondo, JZ or even Crespo, Simeone - not for me. :)

I'd also take Walter Samuel before Ayala.
 

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You know that I don't like to make this kind of all time rankings as I don't feel like I'm competent enough to try one, bar (maybe, partially) the Italian one.
That said, if I had to choose one ranking out of the ones of Glavisted and pep pep I would choose the one of Glavisted because it IS an all time ranking. The choices he makes can be open for a debate but you can't say that there isn't balance in choosing from the different ages of football.
Pep pep's ranking describes an improbable scenario in which very few players from different ages in the past were stars and the rest weren't even as good as Caniggia. Very unlikely.
 

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One more thing regarding the so called "oriundi". There is really no difference between Altafini and Sivori from whatever point of view you choose* so I can't see the reason why you, pep pep, consider Altafini Brazilian and Sivori Italian.
It would not be wrong to include them in both all time rankings, that means the Italian one and the Brazilian/Argentinian one. If I was forced to choose one I'd choose the South American option for both.

* both spent most of their career in Italy, both played very few games either with the Italian NT or the South American NT, if ever it was Sivori who played more games with the South American NT.
 

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This is intentional. In my opinion, there should be no balance, if only due to less competition in the old days (I omit training quality). Can old Lazzatti ( only 4 A, 0 WC) be higher than Caniggia and especially Di Maria (104 A - 20 goals ; clubs: 159 goals-228 assist , only in CL 22 goals- 32 assist ; silver WC, win CL) ?

Difference between Altafini and Sivori ? Sivori plays WC only ITA
 

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This is intentional. In my opinion, there should be no balance, if only due to less competition in the old days (I omit training quality). Can old Lazzatti ( only 4 A, 0 WC) be higher than Caniggia and especially Di Maria (104 A - 20 goals ; clubs: 159 goals-228 assist , only in CL 22 goals- 32 assist ; silver WC, win CL) ?
I do not even know who Lazzatti is, but my argument was that you have Di Stefano and above all Moreno too high to justify the abundance of players from the last 30 years in your list. It looks like Di Stefano and Moreno had teamates and opponents wo weren't even as good as Caniggia. Nowadays you have one Messi but you also have one Mascherano, one Di Maria, one Tevez, one Higuain etc. etc. How is it that something didn't happen with Di Stefano and Moreno if they are so high in an all time ranking? This was my question and this is the reason why I prefer Glavisted's all time ranking, no matter whether I admit that I do not know many players of his (and your) list. His list is consistent with the logic he used to create his list. Your list implies something which you cannot really justify instead.

Difference between Altafini and Sivori ? Sivori plays WC only ITA
Come on, Sivori played 19 games for Argentina and won the Copa America. The fact that he missed to play one world cup with Argentina isn't really an argument to consider him Italian rather than Argentinian.

19 games vs 9 games with the Italian NT.

Do you want to put him in both lists? It is not wrong. Do you want to put him just in the Italian list? It surely is wrong.
 

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The Maestro
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Discussion Starter #9
One more thing regarding the so called "oriundi". There is really no difference between Altafini and Sivori from whatever point of view you choose* so I can't see the reason why you, pep pep, consider Altafini Brazilian and Sivori Italian.
It would not be wrong to include them in both all time rankings, that means the Italian one and the Brazilian/Argentinian one. If I was forced to choose one I'd choose the South American option for both.

* both spent most of their career in Italy, both played very few games either with the Italian NT or the South American NT, if ever it was Sivori who played more games with the South American NT.
I'm not sure if you included me, but when it comes to primary nationalities I follow a simple rule:

The player holds the primary nationality of the country in which he was born if he played at least one competitive/official match with that national team. Otherwise, he holds another primary nationality if he played at least one competitive/official match for another national team and never for that of his country of birth.

Di Stéfano, Sívori, Monti... Argentines.
Camoranesi... Italian.
Trezeguet... French.

Altafini... Brazilian
Pepe (Kepler Laveran de Lima Ferreira), Deco, Liédson... Portuguese
Diego Costa, Senna... Spanish

Bican... Austrian
Kubala... Hungarian
Schiaffino... Uruguayan
 

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No, I was talking about pep pep who excluded Sivori from the Argentinian list because he had played a world cup with the Italian NT and not with the Argentinian NT. An absurd choice in my opinion because Sivori is surely more Argentinian than Italian from any point of view but that meaningless detail.
 

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When we talk about the best what do we talk about?...if it's regarding the most talented and skilled, defenders would dissapear in such a huge list of players to choose.
In fact in terms of skills, talent and even carreer what puts "clearly" Batistuta above Tevez or Aguero?...what I mean is that there are so many angles in what this type of discussions can be approached and NONE would be satisfactory.

I can only think of three fellas that in a world stage view would stand alone and apart: Di Stefano, Maradona and Messi, like the Holy Triad.
The rest, would be just personal preferences...

BUT, in fact if I have to name three extraordinary succesful quintessential Argentinian players, that Triad would change to: Sivori, Maradona and Messi. I add "extraordinary succesful" because in terms of talent every country has their own incredible misfits like Houseman, Corbatta, Rojitas, etc.

Maybe the only "real" way to make this sort of lists it's by dividing it by roles and choosing not few times, if not allway, by mere taste, or prefference. And even within those roles, there are different types of styles among them. And there relies the main reason why the not that Holy Triad of Sivori, Maradona and Messi are the purest Argie players ever, because these fellas just were that fella in the mud in a lost potrero that were just pure football during all these decades and periods, playing above roles, just jugando a la pelota.

Yet at the end, even Sivori can be questioned in terms of mere ability, skills or even by now success in comparison with the so often bashed Di Maria and co. There are so many things than just mere abilty that makes us put a certain player above others. So finally we should just settle to Maradona and Messi?, there will be even people questioning them, but idiotas aside, maybe it's just these two, they are so above, so naturally gifted effortless players that trully look (nowadays) timeless
 

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Leaving the nationality issue aside, I really appreciate the efforts of both @Glavisted and @pep pep

It's never going to be perfect but there's a lot of good work that's gone into this.

I was wondering about the different considerations (e.g. longevity) but Glav's statement using Caniggia as an example was very instructive.
 

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Just look batistutas goal average for argentina and look tevez and aguero.
But that is focusing in the NT, Bochini hardly ever played there and it's one of the most revered players ever down here.
In fact the charismatic, appealing, nostalgic and even folkloric aspect of Bochinin in club level it's in a lot of ways similar with what also works so much in favour of Bati or Cani, that have a huge appeal for almost every argie due to their charismatic NT carreer. But at the end of the day? even being Bostero, even loving the two long haired mofos, the bald and Chaplinesque one takes the cake as a better player.

In any case I was just using an example of how things are hardly written in stone. I allways felt that the best ever players sort of lists should focus primarly in their inherent quality and then later other aspects should be taking in account. But even in such way we'll still be feeling sthg is wrong.

For real I trully feel that leaving freaks on the very top aside, the rest of the players when thinking of them in terms of their ability, should be more or less in the same bag with no real clear order.
 
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