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Discussion Starter #1
Ok, I've just come home from 5 days of Easter holliday back in my hometown. My littlebrothers computer had gotten infected with a virus, and thus I didn't get a chance to see what was going on here.
Imagine my surprise reading through SO many posts where Juve and Lazio fans took shots at one another (at both forums) after SO many relatively quiet weeks.
There has been too many topics for me to have the energi to reply to them all tonight, because I'm pretty tired.

But here goes the general one.

1- JUHU- we beat Fiorentina. It was scrappy, it was lucky, it was 3 points, it was important. I'm happy with that.

2- Juventus haven't played inspiring this season. Other teams has had periods in which they've played better than we have. Occasionally we have played REAL quality football, but over the entire season I can't say I'm thrilled. As Terry pointed out elsewhere, I think it has been a general problem in serie A this season. Lazio has had inspiring matches, but mainly in the beginning where Veron rocked the boat in superior fashion. Parma has had two streaks where their football was very good. Roma has occasionally played the best football in the league. The Milan teams... One step forward- two steps back.

Would I prefer Juventus playing more creative football AND winning ? YES!
Would I prefer Juve playing more creative and NOT winning ? NO!
That's the honest thruth.

To give an example: Barcelona is, on their day, unbeatable. Their game is fantastic to watch. They score goals in numbers, they have great individual skill, and they've lost 11 or 12 games (I think) this season in the Primera!!!!!!! All odds say that Deportivo will take the title, eventhough Barca is the better team.
In Italy only two teams can take the title. Lazio has possibly played the better football, but we'll win (not certain yet, but that's the way it looks) because we have been the more consistent side. Not because Del Piero scores 8 penalties, but because we generally control our games in midfield.
I believe it was AMOROSO who said something along the same lines elsewhere.
Being a Juventus fan, and carying alot for the final scoreline (the 3 points) I'm generally very excited watching Juve. Every team gain in spectacle if You're a fan of them. Thus I don't see Juve with as negative eyes as other fans. Lazio fans finds less flaws with their teams than I do etc. etc. etc.
I'm not going to object to other people telling me that Juve hasn't been creative- some even deeming them outright boring. I don't quiet understand it, but if that's their observance- so be it.
The only things I object to is the thing about who deserves what. If we stay ahead of Lazio- we deserve to win this scudetto. That's my point. Last season I could be REALLY objective saying that I'd rather see Lazio win than Milan, but at the same time, I think Milan deserved their glory, because after 34 matchdays- they had more points.

The only thing that infuriates me is the bribe/ref. allegations.
Sadly I didn't have the opportunity to see the Juve- Fiorentina game, but I understand that Viola was robbed of a penalty. Obviously that's always unfair, and that situation is one among a handfull- TOPS- this season. Can I justify these incidents ? NO! Does it matter that 2 of the 3 penalty's that has actually been given against us should not have been called ? Not really.
Does decisions going for/against Juve attract more attention than with ANY other team? YES! Is it sometimes impressive how short other teams fans memory is counting episodes going against AND in favor of THEIR teams ? YES!
Many times I've said, that it's NOT impossible that some refs. are biased towards Juve. Generally we've had more good than bad luck over the years, but that goes for every single team that has won alot in Europe. Their fame and the magnitude of their renommé gives them an edge. That is not my fault, any Juve fans fault and certainly not the team Juventus' fault.
It can be a drag for other teams no doubt, but I will not hessitate to say, that many times it's simply too easy to take shots in our direction and completely neglect the times "fortune" goes in their direction.
I was quoted to have said that Pippo had only dived 3 times this season somewhere. I don't recall by whom, but I've NEVER said that it was more than twice. That's too much just the same and it's against the idea of the game. But it happens and EVERY single team has players who do it, and sometimes they succed. Not many try as often as Pippo- GO AHEAD AND HATE HIM THEN!!! But it has nothing to do with the referees. If they fell for it over and over.... OK, but it's two (2) times, that he has "succeded", we've not been awarded more penalties than any other of the topteams, and we've had as many players thrown out as the others. We are certainly not being persecuted by the refs. , but those who claim that they're the reason we might very well win makes me angry.

3- JUVE/LAZIO fans.
I will not participate in any mud throwing. I spend alot of time there, and I have a problem with only one/two Lazio fan/s.
Generally I feel that there's alot of heat right now, because it's tight and Lo scudetto is being decided. People are getting carried away sometimes, and since we're all fans, it's pretty easy too see why.
My request will be the same as always.
Juve fans: Do not go to other forums with the intend to thash other people/teams. When You post, post like Zen9 did at the Lazio board. It makes little or no sense to write a topic when all You'll be getting back is angry comments. If the post is relevant and written in the proper tone it will always be respected by the people it was aimed at. Some might take offense anyway, but that doesn't matter. If we all strive to confine ourselves to the intention of this messageboard, it won't be our/Your fault.
I'm not telling ANYBODY off here- most of You behave Yourselves accordingly, and many of You have been here long enough to know excactly how it works. This is only general stuff.

Fans from other teams: Same goes for every visitor here at the Juve forum.
If something is deleted and You think I'm too vigouris in deleting provocative or just simply anti-Juve material, know that I will delete EVERY topic I do not believe has a constructive element in it.
What am I hinting at here ?
Every topic that can be debated is interesting to me. Svennis and AMOROSO once again points out that they think Juve is a boring side. Fair enough I can discuss that. There's substance to it, and they can do it without disrespecting Juve and us too much.
Going against individuals or one particular club is bad taste in my opinion, unless someone provokes it themselves.

Now can we PLEASE get back to a merrier attitude around here ?

Ciao.
 
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We are going through some turbulent waters here... :) but it is more fun that way, in my opinion!!!!!!!!



------------------
G3ORG3

FoRzA JuVe

fOrZa BiAnCoNeRi
 

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Hi Glen, welcome back..

Things got pretty heated up while you weren't here as you probably know.

First of all about the corrupt referees and all that. :( :(

Some fans claim that Juve are on top only thanks to Del Piero's penalties. (this makes me sick)

Some fans hate Juve and attack their fans (thats us) because Juventus FC of Turin play unattractive football, yet are still winning and on top of the league.

Some Lazio fans can't stand the pressure and attack Juventus fans, and vice-versa (I'm not saying we're completely innocent)

This is getting crazy. Frankly, I'm sick of it. Like you said is it our fault?? No way.

About the penalties. I don't think they're unfair. We have been lucky sometimes, but otherwise we play some brilliant football (and sometimes sloppy and lucky). Our defence is great, and this is the main reason why we are on top of this League. Because we've conceded only 17 goals. (HALF of that of Parma) and not only that, we have had 20 victories, which is what Milan had at the end of last season. It's actually a very good season in my opinion and the only thing left to do is win the next three games, even if its 1-0, 1-0, 1-0 and all own goals and penalties. Though I would prefer other scorlines... :)
 
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Glen mentions posting on other team's boards. A comment about that, if I may.

When I used to post on Lazio's board, I operated under three guidelines that I set for myself in advance. These are MY guidelines for ME only. I am not saying that anyone else should follow them - each of you would have to set up your own guidelines for yourself. But I do think it helps to have thought out ahead of time what your guidelines are going to be rather than make them up as you go along:

1. When I post on another team's board, I am not posting just for myself. I represent Juventus, and I need to act accordingly.

2. When I post on another team's board, I am a guest. When I post here, I am at home. There is a big difference. I would no more go to another team's board and post things like "Juve is the best", "We beat you, ha, ha", "We're going to win the championship", etc. than I would go over to a friend's house for dinner, sit down at the table, look around, and say, "My house is better than yours." If Juve wins the scudetto, heck, I may post "Juve is the champion" with great excitement- but I'll do it here, at home, not at another team's board.

3. Every team in Serie A has good players; every team in Serie A has played good games; every team in Serie A has had moments of which it is justly proud. It does not diminish me as a Juve fan in the slightest if I tell the fans of another team that their team has played well, has good players, etc. I have yet to see Juve players play a game and then, when it is over, go over to the other team and tell them,"You suck."

Again, these guidelines may not feel right for you. OK, fine - make up your own. But make them up before you start posting on boards where most of the fans are VERY hostile to Juventus and its fans.

And now, since I'm at home .... FORZA JUVE!

Zen9
 

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Just an observation here about the referees in Serie A, as compared to those in some other leagues.
Personally, I think, unfortunately the credibility of the referees in Serie A is more questionable as compared to, say, the Premier League. From what I see in PL, some referees may have their 'reputation' - very strict, controversial, etc. But -correct me if I'm wrong- in general there's no distinct favoritism shown by the referees towards a particular team. Not even ManUtd. Same with the Bundesliga. Well, a referee may slightly favor the home side in a game, but I guess that one is rather understandable -psychological thing 'n all.
Meanwhile, the fans of Serie A seem to accuse the referees of favoritism, instead of merely being controversial. True, may be these accusations are 100% wrong, but come to think of it, one must have observed some instances to have such suspicions - it can't just crop up from nowhere.
So, what to do? Rather than just trashing the referees, and always thinking that when the team(s) favored by a referee wins ' it's because the referee' and refusing to give any credit at all to the team -- is it actually possible for Serie A to come up with ways,methods,steps etc that will improve the refereeing quality of Serie A, and hence improve the credibility of the refs which will result in a better Serie A! Collina has a world reputation, and a good one that is. So the whole task shouldn't be impossible although indeed difficult.
What do you think?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Zen; I completely agree that it's a matter of personal taste how You conduct Yourself at other forums. I only mentioned You because I thought Yourself in a way I could only applaud.
My personal opinion is that You've overdramatized the ONE incident when a frustrated fan asked You to leave. He never thought You would- and You must now be aware that Your presence at the Lazio board is more than appreciated.

Anyway- We do not have to compromise with our honest opinions. The only thing that matters is that we, as Zen said, should take notice that we are guests in some sense, when we participate in discussions in other forums.
I don't give a dam* if other fans behave badly here- if it's REALLY bad I'll delete it- otherwise it only puts Juventus fans in a favourable light when we respond to insults in a dignified manner.

Nedved; Let's take that discussion elsewhere- it hasn't got much to do with this topic.
Play it again Sam :)- but give it it's own topic.

Ciao.
 
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Hello Nedved,

It's great to hear from you. You raise some interesting points.

Being from America, I really don't know much about Italian referees and the obvious controversy that exists about whether they are impartial. I hope some people more knowledgeable than I am respond to your post so I can learn too.

I want to talk about this subject more during the summer - when nothing much is going on except the eternal "who is buying who from who" rumors. Right now, I have mainly questions:

Are the Serie A referees professionals or do they have other jobs too?

If they are not professionals, and well paid professionals at that, why not?

What kind of training do referees get?

What kind of supervision do they get? Assuming that there were a truly bad referee, how does the League get rid of him?

If it is true that some (or all) referees favor Juventus and Milan so that it is difficult for other teams to win the scudetto, why do the other teams put up with it? Why would anyone own or run a team, spend a whole lot of money on players, etc., etc., if they knew that their team did not have a fair chance of winning the championship? [At this point, I mean that as a question, not as an argument]

Nedved, right now I have to admit that I am more focused on the race for the scudetto, but I very much want to talk more about this topic in the future. Meanwhile, I hope other people respond to your post with some of the answers to our questions.

Zen9

Addition after reading Glen's comments immediately above: I agree with Glen, this subject deserves a topic of its own.

[This message has been edited by Zen9 (edited 27-04-2000).]
 

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**** man.. these posts are freakn long.. but good indeed! :) the situtation now is freakn sicco. hehe. the juventino's and laziale's hacking on each other. Glen and (who is the moderator at the lazio forum?) anyways you should make a "high tension" sign on these two forums! :) this is getting out of hand!
we are both feeling the breath of the scudetto down our neck so everyone understands why it is like it is now. we have arguments we can hack on lazio with and they have theirs. but like I believe Glen said. post your arguments in a proper way so we juventino's don't look like those glory hunting manure fans! and it will be discussed more "nice" :) anyways.. let's hope there will be no red cards and penaltys the rest of the season so we and the laziale's will shut up! :)

forza juve!!
 
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