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OK, I have a simple question. Which league is better? The Barzilian or Argentinian Primera? All I know is teams like Boca and Velez are better known then Palmeiras and Corinthians, so I'd go with Argntina, but what do you guys think?
 

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The Brazilian clubs are better than argentinians on and off the pitch.
Although their league isbetter organized than ours.
Justlookatthe south americans competitions of the last decade (the only decade we bothered competing serioulsy in S. America) that you can have the precise answer.
In Brazil is not only Corinthians and Palmeiras....their are MANY clubs that can win the championshipand many things change during a year, cause their are so many good players coming up.
Never forget Sao Paulo, Flamengo, Vasco, Botafogo, Santos, Gremio, Cruzeiro, Internacional, Atletico-MG, etc...etc.. they all have a realistic chance of winning the trophy!
the Brazilian championship is the most open championship of the world!

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Pelo Corinthians, com muito amor...ate o fim.
LHP - THE WORLD IS OURS!!!
 

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The quality of football is far superior in the Argentinean league. In Brazil, the game is rough and matches are constantly interrupted with fouls and theatrics. In fact the great Brazilian player Cerezo has been heavily critical of the quality of football in Brazil and has described it as second rate.

In fact football analysts in Europe believe without any doubt that the Argentinean league is superior to the Brazilian league.

No one doubt's that Brazilian clubs, have performed so well in the Copa Libertadores, but the quality of football in their league is not that good. Clubs like River Plate, Boca Juniors, Velez Sarsfield and San Lorenzo are well known internationally. Brazilian clubs do not share this level of international recognition.

One thing that is important and is worth mentioning, is that Argentina is the largest exporter of football players in South America. Our players are in constant demand, the clubs for financial reasons very often take advantage of this situation and go ahead and sell their players to clubs in Europe. This makes it difficult to maintain a strong level of competition in tournaments like the Copa Libertadores.

Off the field, Maradona aside, Argentinean players are far more disciplined. Why do so many European clubs employ Argentinean players, apart for their obvious footballing talent? Because, most of our players behave in a civilized manner and are not seen as social liabilties for the club that would like to purchase them. Look at players like Romario and Edmundo they behave appallingly off the field. Edmundo, while he was playing for Fiorentina in Italy, decided to attend the Carnival in Brazil, and just left his team mates in Italy during the season, so he could go samba!! He is also in trouble with the law,as he was involved in a car accident several years ago, in where a few people died. Romario, is always getting into trouble and was seen as a trouble maker while he was employed in Barcelona. He is also known for his night clubing, womanizing, etc. (and yes he's married)

I am not saying that Argentinean players are model citizens, but in general they are well appreciated for their social conduct. Argentinean players are seen as more serious, more reliable and ultimately more professional.




[This message has been edited by czar (edited 14-05-2000).]
 
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You didnt answer why they get thier ass kicked in SAmerican cups...

Also, where were your youth for Olympics qualification...

Alex, ronaldinho and co. are way better than their argentinian counterparts....Riquelme, Aimar, Saviola...etc...
 

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1. Do we get our assess kicked in South American competition? It depends how you determine this question. Argentina, has won the highest amount of Copa America Cup Tournaments (more than Brazil) and several Copa Libertadores.

2. After winning the World Youth Cup in '95 & 97, much was expected of us in the Olympic qualifiers, unfortunately, this particular selection of players, did not blend well as a team. But, that does not discredit the players for their natural talent and overall ability.

3. You think this because you are Brazilian or a Brazilian supporter. The fact is that European clubs and analysts, have determined that Aimar, Riquelme and Saviola are the three most talented and sought after youth players in South America. Don't forget that last season. Saviola was voted South American Footballer of the year.
 

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Czar,
ok good arguement etc...
The thing why argentian clubs are more known in europe is beggest your league is better organized as I mentioned in my first post.
That's got nothing to do with the quality of football.....otherwise the Englsih league would not be one of the top 3 leagues of the world cause the level of football is not very good.
Ony in the 90's taht brazilian clubs ahve bothered to take the libertadreos serously , mainly beacause iadfter Sao Paulo won it in 92, everyone saw the amount of money it can generate and international recognition.
After that the only clubs that managed to win the cup without being brazilian were Velez Sarsfield (total luck on penaltis) and River Plate (deserved winners). After that you guys were murdered in almost every tournament in the 90's, except one or other super cup competition were Indepediente won or Velez Sarsfield won.
Last year Palmeiras killed River Plate in the semi final.....and Ramon Diaz admited that Palmeiras were a much better team than River Plate.
Brazil is the biggest expoerter of players..not argentina. In POrtugal alone we got about 300 players......if you count the japanese clubs then we totally destroy the Argentinian count.
Maradona is not the only argentinan duirty player...what about Simeone, Claudio Garcia...etc...etc...etc.
ALso , ou clubs have more mponey than the argentians....a good example is the amount of money Parmalat gave Palmeiras and gave Boca Juniors , back in the day were they used to sponsor both clubs.
In Brazil today we got as top teams: Corinthians, vasco, Palmeiras....with Cruzeiro, Santos, Sao Paulo and FLmanego, Gremio chasing behind.......and any of these clubs can beat each other.
ON the tradional level, we have 13 big clubs:

4 from Sao Paulo: Corinthians, Sao Paulo, Santos, Palmeiras

4 from Rio: FLuminense, Flamengo, Vasco and BOtafogo.

2 from Rio grande do Sul: Gremio and Internacional

2 from Minas Gerais: Cruzeiro and Atletico-MG

1 from Bahia: Bahia


Any of these clubs are capable of making a winnig side in a year or two.....that's why our football is so strong....clubs alternates in dominance of eras etc....etc..
One time you can be on the top the other on the bottom.
In 97 Corinthians were almost relegated (I was on the game that saved us :)) and the next following years we were champions!...just you to see how instable club football is!

If you compare to other countries 95% of the time it wil be only 3 teams that wil be champions and that's it! :( not a lot of competition.
In Spain you know that it wil either be barcelona or real madrid.....with Atletico coming form behind.

Italy: Juventus, Inter, MIlan or an outsider.

England: Liverpol, Man UTd, Arsenal or an outsider etc...etc...
in brazil is not like that!

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GAVIOES DA FIEL
Pelo Corinthians, com muito amor...ate o fim.
LHP - THE WORLD IS OURS!!!
 
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I have a few questions:

1- How many Argentinian teams are on the Libertadores quarter-finals? And how many Brazilian?
2- Who won the last 5 Libertadores Cup?
3- Who won all the Mercosul Cups?
4- Who won the last 2 Copa America?
5- Who made better in the last 2 World Cups? Brazil or Argentina?

After that you take the conclusion of who has better clubs and players at the past years in soccer.
 

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Ze & Corinthiano,

1. Brazilian clubs have won the last 3 Copa Libertadores. River Plate was the last side to have won it in 1996. So, Corinthiano your question should have actually read: Who won the last 3 Libertadores Cups? :)

The Copa Libertadores was established in 1960. Since, it's inception, Argentinean clubs have won this tournament on 17 occasions while Brazilian clubs have won it on 11 occasions. This underlines a long standing dominance of Argentinean clubs in this tournament. I agree that Brazilian clubs are starting to catch up with us, but our level of superiority remains unparalleled. Although, in the '90's Brazilian clubs very impressively won this tournament on 6 occasions, while Argentinean clubs won it on 2 occasions.

2. Yes, Brazil won the two last Copa America's, while Argentina also won it twice in the 90's those titles coming in '91 & '93. Argentina has won the Copa America on 14 occasions, far more than any other South American Nation.

3. I agree that, Brazil has performed very well in the last two World Cup's. Comparatively, Argentina had reached the World Cup Final in 3 of the last 6 World Cup's, in where we won it on 2 occasions. In the last 6 World Cup's Brazil, reached the final twice winning it only once. So, recent history is actually more favorable towards Argentina.

4. Copa Mercosul: Granted Brazilian Clubs have done very well.

Haven written all this I must say that I have great respect for Brazilian teams in general. I think it is a mutual respect that only Brasilieros and Argentinos would understand, we are impressed with each other's history and ability. :) But the rivalry between our two nations will always be there.

On a separate note I would like to Congratulate my fellow Argentinos in Europe. This year many Argentinean players have won Championships or are on the verge of winning Championships. The list is as follows:

Italy
League Champion: Lazio-Players: Veron, Almeyda, Simeone & Sensini.

France
League Champion: Monaco-Player: Gallardo

Portugal
League Champion: Sporting Lisbon-Players: Duscher, Quiroga, Acosta & Hanuch.

Spain
League Champion: We'll know next week, so if Deportivo La Coruna win, then a couple of Argentinean players, Flores and Scaloni would win medals.

With the European Cup Final coming up on May 24th. Argentineans that play for Valencia such as Lopez, Pellegrino and González have an opportunity to win a winners medal. In the event that Valencia lose and I hope that they don't Redondo that plays for Real Madrid, can win his second final in this tournament. Roberto Carlos and Savio also play for Real Madrid, so Brazilians could also enjoy some European Cup glory.

In Italy Batistuta finished the season with 23 goals (2nd after Shevchenko) and one more than Crespo who finished the season with 22 goals (3rd place) None of Batistuta’s goals came from penalties while Shevchenko had at least 4 goals from penalties. If you discount Shevchenko's penalties, Batistuta would have finished the Seria A as top goal scorer!!



[This message has been edited by czar (edited 15-05-2000).]
 
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You are right...the rivalry will always be there...

Argentina is tougher while Brazil is more talented...We all know talent wins :)
 

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May I suggest the following, my friends: as this is a friendly samba party, one does not really need a serious argument if Argentina and their league is better or not. We believe we are better and that is enough as far as I'm concerned. Elsewhere the thinking may be different, fair enough. Here we are samba & party, alright ? Forca Brasil ! :)

:)

CESF
 

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Thanks alexx and Tony,

Czar just one thing:
Brazilian clubs only started giving importance to the LIbertadores after Sao Paulo won it in 92, because of the money reward. Before our clubs and supporters did not care, mainly because of the racism that hispanic counitres have agaisnt us, because we are the biggest nad most powerful economy of the continent and we don't spealk Spanish. Is the same thing the other Hispanic countres have agaisnt you guys...cause you guys are more Italians and Europeans than the rest of the Incas and the Andes etc.....

As for the Copa America....we also din't take much importance.....you can see that when we win the Copa America we don't do almost no partying...but when we win the WC the whole country stops.....streets are painted, people die of heart attack etc....etc...etc....

I admit one thing....argentinanas clubs have a more battling mentality than we do...but we are more skillfull, talented and better tactically. And I do admit that the Tactically issue can be argued...but the skill and talent cannot!


Now....a Sao Paulo x Corinthians, Palmeiras X Sao Paulo, Corinthians X Palmeiras, Flamengo X Fluminense, Flamengo x Vasco, etc...etc.. is much better than a Boca x River in techinically and tactically!


Now for the European leagues, if you are going to count player by player we have ALWAYS had the dominance, even in the Maradona years! .
A god example is Amoroso, he left Brazil he could not even get a game in the Flamengo team he was on the bench. He goes to a crap club (Udinese) and is top scorer of the Italian league!.
Savio had to leave Brazil to play well, cause in Flamengo he would always fall on the floor....he goes to Real Madrid and is a success.
Last year we had top scorers in Italy, Germany, Portugal and Spain. Of the top leagues we only din't make in England...but if you put Franca, Dodo, Reinaldo , Guilherme, Luizao + any European based Brazilian centre forward in England and in a top team......they would be easily the top scorers.

Plus if you consider the amount of brazilian players that have to change their citizenship to get to play International football is unbelivable.....and Brazilian managers that train foreign countries in the World cup is also unbelievable.
Just in the 98 WC, Parreira was with Saudi Arabia, Rene Simoes with Jamaica, Carpegianni was with paraguay, and Luxemburgo was offered the job with Japan but din't accept it......and 50% of the japanese football comission was from Brazil!!

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GAVIOES DA FIEL
Pelo Corinthians, com muito amor...ate o fim.
LHP - THE WORLD IS OURS!!!




[This message has been edited by Ze da Fiel (edited 15-05-2000).]
 

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Ze,

1. Copa Libertadores: I somehow doubt that Brazilian clubs started to only take the competition seriously in the '90s. If you look at the amount of time Brazilian teams finished runners up, I would find it hard to believe that this tournament was only taken seriously in the past 10 years. Brazilian runners up are as follows:

1961-Palemerias
1968-Palmerias
1974-Sao Paulo
1977-Cruzeiro
1980-Internacional
1984-Gremio
1994-Sao Paulo

Only once in the '90s did Brazilian teams finish second while on 6 other occasions they finished as runners up. If they had won instead of finishing as runners up, I think that you would never had brought up the argument that this tournament was only taken seriously in the '90s. They simply didn't win, and have only improved their level of club football in the past 10 to 15 years.

2. The same point applies to the Copa America. I think your argument that the Brazilian National Team, has only started to take this tournament seriously in the past ten years is not a valid argument. I am sure you believe other wise, but I do not share your opinion. :)

3. Brazil, is a Nation with a large population of over 150 million inhabitants. the population of Argentina is barely 34 million. Brazilians, have influenced football in different corners of the world. Yes, their are certainly many Brazilian coaches, managers, players and officials all over the world. You can't really count Japan. The number of Japanese descendants in Brazil is so great that it would be almost impossible not to influence their football association. With regards, to Argentina being the largest exporter of football players, I read something in a publication earlier this year regarding this point. I will see if I can find it, if I do I will let you know the percentage breakdown.

4. Regarding, Brazilian players being more skillful, talented. I think that this point is very debatable as well. I think our players have better technique. If you go over to the Argentina forum, you will see a title of a subject that I started: Future Argentinean Super Stars. I wrote and published this compilation for a British web site. Take a look at our up and coming players. They are amazing talents in Argentina. As for the established stars, I think that we have some great talents although I also agree that Brazil has many outstanding players. I just think that this point is debatable. Tactically, I think we have the edge. :)
 

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Czar,
I'm pretty busy now...but tomorrow i'll come back to have a good argument :)
jst one thing...our clubs were better in the past.....with the excpetion of Corinthians now and Sao Paulo( 91-93)
the greatest ever santos team was in the 60's ...and for about 35 years or so they were the only team EVER to beat Boca Jniors in La Bombonera in a Libertadores tie!!
I'll continue tomorrow! :)

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GAVIOES DA FIEL
Pelo Corinthians, com muito amor...ate o fim.
LHP - THE WORLD IS OURS!!!
 

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czar,
I had already checked out the stars.
Now take a look in Brazilian football at or u-23 team...both of 96 and now. The only guys of the 96 argy team that I wold pt in the 96 brazilian team could PROBABLY be Ortega or Gallardo. But then again they would have to battle with Juninho..when he was one of the best of the world.
Today....I would have no Argentinians.
Look at our U-23 team:

Helton (Vasco)

Daniel (Corintthians) Fabio Bilica (Venezia) Alvaro(Sao Paulo) Athirson (Flamengo)

Edu (Corinthians) Felipe(Vasco)

Alex(Palmeiras) Pedrinho (Vasco)

Ronaldinho Gacho (Gremio) reinaldo (Flamengo)


All these guys have been linked to europe expet Daniel , Alvaro and Edu . Edu will go to wueope...you mst have seen agaisnt Rosario, and always secure, skilfll and reading the game perfectly :)
NOw you got knocked out by the team that WE brazilians made....CHILE :)


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GAVIOES DA FIEL
Pelo Corinthians, com muito amor...ate o fim.
LHP - THE WORLD IS OURS!!!
 

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i'm a brazil lover, but i would probably agree that the argentine league is better. but that's the LEAGUE, not the teams. argentina has more money to spend on football, and the sport is more organized over there. each stadium and pitch is in better condition, the players behave better on and off the field, and there is less corruption.

but i don't think there's any question that the brazilian league has more talented teams and more entertaining football. the problem is there is no discipline in brazil, and players make HORRIBLE fouls in brazil, they do foolishness like juggle with the ball when they are winning, the don't show up for training (romario, edmundo, etc.).

if brazil were a richer country, there is no question it would have the best football league in the world.
 
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Also...Most of the Argentinian stars that come out are concentrated to Boca, River and Valez....I bet you if you look at the really good players, they come from Boca and River...Basically, all the good talent is based there..Thats why they dominate...In Brazilian teams, the talent is more scattered...Also, this is because there is more talent to go around...

For ex..Ronaldo came from Cruziero...From what I have heard, that is not exactly the biggest club...I bet you there are others...

Just my opinion...I dont have too many facts on this...It just seems this way to me..


Ze,
why is Ronaldinho Assis called Ronaldinho Gaucho...from the tape that falcao gave me, thats what the commentators called him all the time...Does that have anything to do with regionality??
 

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Ok guys,
The thing is ...we have to define what is a good league? Just organization or the quality of the footaball teams?
In organization Argentina is miles, years ahead of us......their players make strike together....this is unthinkable in Brazil cause a lot of the players hate each other, and are just conecerned with their own egos.
Now, our clubs are very well prepared to get talent......as I've said many times, we make we sell, and then we make talent again. Players go, but suddenly their is a replacement at the same level.

Look at Sao Paulo...in 93 they sold Rai to Paris St germain, and came up with Juninho. Juninho took Rai's place in the Brazilian team 2 years after!!

Now Sao Paulo sell Serginho to Milan, and then they bring up Fabio Aurelio, who was the owner of the #6 shirt in the pre olympic , putting Athirson in the subs bench.

Another thing, Romario leaves Flamengo to Vasco, and his replacement is a 21 year old kid....Reinaldo!

Guilherme leaves Vasco's bench in the middle of last year, to give way to Edmundo's return (Guilehrme was bench of Luizao, VIola and Donizete)...goes to Atletico_MG and is the top scorer of the Brazilian championship!


I can go on and on, giving you guys examples.
Our clubs are better prepared in terms of youth, talent and money wise than Argentina. Now in organization , making a clean and respectaful tournament, with people abiding by the rules...no doubt Argentina is miles ahead of us!
If only had the campabiulity of keeping our top players....we would not need no foreigners (except RINCON and GAMARRA) the brazilian championship would be the best of the world. In my book , honelty , it is...because it is the only tournament that I truly miss something in my soul if I don't see the brazilian games!.

Czar,
About skill , I doubt that in Argentina today, you guys have people that dribbles like: Edilson, Romario, Denilson, Felipe, Edmundo, Ricardinho, Pedrinho , Ronaldinho Gaucho or even Ronaldo!
About the tactics....again that is very debatble....cause it goes over what type of style you like....defense or attack, a rough team or a beautiful team etc...etc...etc.. and we will argue all day here.,
About the LIbertadores taht we din't care...we din't...but ok we did get the odd second place.


Czar, just a quick informational question: What happened to racing club? What are they gonna do with their stadium? And who are the biggest suporters of Avelllaneda, Independiente or Racing?
I once went to see Flamengo v Independiente in Brasilia, and their was this banner : Tragan lo vino, que las copas sobran" (bring the wine, cause their are many cups). I think is like that , my spanish is not all that good! :( I really liked that one!

Tony,
Yes it is a reagional thing...every time you see a Baiano, carioca, paraiba, gaucho, Paulista, Goiano on the names of the players is beacause they come from a certain state. Ronaldinho gaucho of course is from rio Grande do Sul...the pampas of Brazil! Their footballing stylke is very close to Argentinians and Uruguyans because they are so close

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GAVIOES DA FIEL
Pelo Corinthians, com muito amor...ate o fim.
LHP - THE WORLD IS OURS!!!
 

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Ze,

I will answer your message later. But in terms of skillful dribblers I would easily put the following players at the same level as the Brazilian players that you have mentioned. Riquelme, Aimar, Romagnoli, Saviola, D'Alessandro, Gonzalez, Manso and Barros Schelotto

Outside of Argentina I think that Veron (IMO the best midfielder in the world today)Gallardo and Ortega are also tremendously skillful with the ball.

[This message has been edited by czar (edited 16-05-2000).]
 

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Czar,
Some of the players I don't know of.
But for sure , Denilson,Edilson, Romario and Felipe, Rivaldo ALL dribble better than Gallardo, Ortega and Veron all put together!

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Pelo Corinthians, com muito amor...ate o fim.
LHP - THE WORLD IS OURS!!!
 

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Ze,

I think the world knows what excellent dribblers Brazilian players really are. No one doubts this. I think that my definition of an excellent dribbler may be a little different then yours.

The problem with many of the highly skillful Brazilian players is that they are what I call "exhibitionists". They can dribble magically but then what? How, much of all that is actually creative or constructive? It may be nice to watch, but what about goal scoring opportunities that are created from all that fancy footwork? I think that many skillful Argentinean players dribble the ball very well, but with one main difference they are much better distributors of the ball, and certainly less selfish. Our players may not be as magical or flamboyant as Brazilian players, but they are more creative in an industrious sense. If you take Gallardo for instance (voted best player in France this season) he is an excellent dribbler, he has vision and again creates opportunities. The net result of dribbling is that it has to open goal scoring opportunities. If you compare somebody like Denilson, he is great to watch, if you are judging him as one individual, but football is not about the "Denilson show"

About, what you said about Santos beating Boca in Bs As back in the sixties, yeah, I know they were very strong. I still think that the Copa Libertadores was taken seriously by Brazilian clubs. Brazil, had five runners up before the nineties!!

In short, I think their is an abundance of talent in both Argentina and Brazil. I think that Brazilian players are more naturally talented but, I also think that Argentinean players are technically better. You may not include any of our players in Brazil's youth teams (U-20, U-21 or U-23) but just wait. The players that I have included in my compilation are potentially better that Ortega or Gallardo or even Veron.

Did you know that they have discovered two outstanding talents in Argentina? Both about 11 to 12 years old. Their names are Sergio Maradona (no relation to Diego) and Leandro Depetris. I haven’t watch them play, but I have read about them, they have caused so much attention in Argentina. Analysts, have compared their current overall skill, talent and over footballing condition to that of Diego Maradona when he was the same age. Both of them are attacking midfielders, that have the capacity and ability of a good 17-18 year old player. In fact Depetris has already been signed by AC Milan, and he will move to Italy when he turns 15. Maradona, on the other hand is being watched by a number of Italian and Spanish clubs.

tonyp3,

In part you are correct, most talent in Argentina comes from the big clubs, you forgot to mention San Lorenzo. But that has also changed in recent years many of the smaller clubs have excellent youth systems and players. Many of the big name players come from smaller clubs. If you take even Maradona he began his career at Argentinos Juniors , which is at best a mediocre club.




[This message has been edited by czar (edited 18-05-2000).]
 
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