[RazorUK]

This is to all those whose posts I've read with admiration since coming on here in 2000...who know who you are... fans who can see that this team is destined for greatness...who understand that when we win 1-0 in the quarter final of the European Cup against a team top of the Bundesliga then we've just got ourselves a very good result...who you appreciate the old adage about attackers winning games and defenders winning championships.
I'm sick of reading posts that hail us as the greatest team ever when we have a good win but ridicule us as pathetic if, having played badly, we still win. This is not fantasy football, this is reality, this is how we won trophies years ago [heck we were worse then cos we could knock it across the back four and give it to Ray or Brucie to pick up for a while]. I hate it when the most 'knowledgable' fans in the business fail to appreciate that when the mighty reds go out onto a football pitch there are actually eleven men trying to beat them..to read some of the posts on here you'd think we should expect the opposition to applaud us as we win 6 nil every time.

This team is going places - we're not the finished article but while we're growing we're winning and that's a very important quality and an amazing feature of Houllier's reign. Do I expect us to play like we are now in 2 years time - NO. He's taught us how to defend and defend with our lives - now just watch as he turns us into an unstoppable creative force. You can add creativity to discipline and structure, you cannot do it the other way round as poor old uncle Roy found out.

France in 98 were not the team they are now, but they won and have improved steadily ever since...it's called 'DEVELOPMENT' which in case some of you on here don't realise is what Ged was in charge of as Technical Director in France. You think in terms of 90 minutes, Ged sees 90 minutes within the context of the next 5 years...which is why our acadamy is strong, which is why we're signing up some of the world's best teenagers, which is why we've got one of the youngest teams in the country...

we are a team in development, a wonderful outpouring of long term vision and creativity and I, who was not alive in Shankley's time, am privileged that I am getting to watch what my father watched - a glimpse of greatness to come - if we can continue to win while we're growing then that is merely the icing on the cake

like I said - apologies to those of you who can appreciate what I mean by this thread, this team is going places.
I can take constructive criticism and opinions on players etc because we are developing but what I cannot stand are people criticising this team for WINNING in the quarter final of the European Cup.

YNWA

 

[MINDSCAPE]

RazorUK
Are U okie?
U having a fever?
I dun think I remember anyone criticizing Liverpool nowadays the way they were criticized in midseason. The Bayer thread contain only one real bit of slamming, the rest are just cautious comments, I can hardly called that slamming?

Take a break Razor
Go get some cold beer

 

[RazorUK]

I was pre-empting it Mindy

 

[Paulinho]

Houllier brought in Heskey and sold Fowler. He can win everything under the sun for all I care, but I will never forgive that. End of discussion.

 

[B*O*S*H*]

Houllier brought in Heskey and sold Fowler. He can win everything under the sun for all I care, but I will never forgive that. End of discussion.

Then u r a Fowler supporter not a Liverpool one

No player is bigger than the team....

 

[Paulinho]

Then u r a Fowler supporter not a Liverpool one

Why would the two be mutually exclusive?

No player is bigger than the team....

But a manager is?

 

[Mr Fowler]

I dun think I remember anyone criticizing Liverpool nowadays the way they were criticized in midseason. The Bayer thread contain only one real bit of slamming, the rest are just cautious comments, I can hardly called that slamming?

But isn't that exactly his point? We are the greatest team in the world when we are doing well and the worst when we have a bad patch.

 

[B*O*S*H*]

But a manager is?

I didn't say that a manager is bigger than the team.

But I do know that its the manager's job to pick what he think is the best team and if the team is winning then he is successful.

I am a massive Fowler fan..... and its a pity that Houllier feels that hes not part of the plan.

But life goes on ...and I for one support the team more than anything...

I also firmly believe that Houllier will bring us back to where we belong - the very top......

 

[Arthro Enas]

I am a Fowler fan too. It was hard to see him left but he wants to go to Korea and Japan so that's the reason he left.

Anyway, I still support Liverpool and to me, Liverpool comes first and every one in the club is equally positioned.

 

[Paulinho]

I am a Fowler fan too. It was hard to see him left but he wants to go to Korea and Japan so that's the reason he left.

No, the reason he left was because he was chased out of the club by Houllier. Unless you actually think that incident with Thommo at the beginning of the season was actually Robbie's fault and the club handled it properly.

Anyway, I still support Liverpool and to me, Liverpool comes first and every one in the club is equally positioned.

Everyone's equal? Hot damn! Lets get rid of Owen and give Daniel Sjölund a chance. We haven't really utilized his skills since his transfer from the Hammers.

 

[Yasir]

Razor, wonderful post.. couldn't have been said better...!!

Paulinho, Although I'm still a die hard Fowler fan.. I was and still am a Liverpool fan even before Fowler ever thought of playing for us... and as sad as I was when he left.. as much as I'm impressed by the way the team is building for the future..

I think the best example would be the Mancs.. who would have imagined in 1988 that Man U would own the 90's as they did..!! People were actually asking for Alex Ferguson to be sacked!! I guess the history books could say the rest..

the fact that we sold Fowler could be as you said.. cuz Fowler and Houllier didn't see eye to eye.. or could be as FOWLER said.. to be able to secure a WC spot in the England team.. either way.. he's not with us any more.. I wish him all the best.. end of story..

Razor, I was one of the people who was really pissed by the performance against Bayer.. not cuz we won playing badly.. or any of that crap.. but cuz we looked weak in every line except defence (including Dudek of course).. the quality of passes by Murphy, Gerrard and Smicer and the effort put by those plus Owen was not something we would have expected at all..

But as you said.. will Liverpool be playing in the same way 2 years from now?? I think not..

Wonderful post!!

 

[lebnen]

I LOVE LIVERPOOL BUT I THINK THEY DID THE STUPIDEST THING BY SELLING ROBBIE FOWLER AND KEEPING EMIL HESKEY

 

[Gilli]

Paulinho, I understand where you're coming from and Yes, Fowler was important to the club as both symbol and a player. But for me, I support my team and stick behind it through thick and thin, because I support the club, not that player or another or that boring/attractive tactic or another. I support the club, period and will always want to see Liverpool win. I hope you agree with that.

 

[B*O*S*H*]

I LOVE LIVERPOOL BUT I THINK THEY DID THE STUPIDEST THING BY SELLING ROBBIE FOWLER AND KEEPING EMIL HESKEY

I don't understand why u r against Heskey. Hes a model pro and play his heart out everytime he steps onto the pitch.

He may not be as prolific a scorer as Fowler but he is ever improving and his work rate is second to none.... Under Houllier's tutelage, he will be tops...

 

[B*O*S*H*]

Under Houllier's tutelage, he will be tops...

In fact, he already is

 

[Paulinho]

What do I have against Heskey? Let see.

1. Heskey is a target-man. There isn't much else he can do well. You have to supply him with plenty of crosses to get something out of him, and since our wings are exactly John Barnes or Macca anymore, I question the wisdom of this.

2. Heskey is not nearly as creative or dominant as Fowler. He cannot grab the game by the throat and turn a 1:0 loss into a 2:1 victory. He plays well if the rest of the team plays well and he's invisible if his teammates are pants.

3. He lacks charisma. Robbie is moody and unpredictable, but that's exactly why defenders fear him.

4. Emile Heskey's place of birth: Leicester

5. Robbie Fowler's place of birth: Toxteth

Hike up the ticket prices, sell the Toxteth-born crowd favourite, yup, that's gonna get all them working-class guys back into the stadium.

 

[MINDSCAPE]

Its all very simple
Play football like we played against Roma, Leeds (away) and Ispwich (Away) - Win win win win win

Play like midseason - Draw at home, draw at home, lose away etc.

As long as we play positive football. It doesn't matter if we have to grind out a result in the occasional odd matches, as long as we play positively overall and recognize the need to eek out an occasional draw if our form on that day is not up to form.

As I said, we win more matches by being positive cos our defence is fantastic. It was not the same when we were under Evans when being positive means we have to concede lots of goals and draw 3-3.

Yes we are developing, and when a child grow up, you dun stifle his development by making his just simply do his homework silently day in day out, you have to encourage his talents and let him take a few risks.

Houllier says he is the developing the team, what is so difficult about playing positively. (Of cos there must be discipline in defence).

Two seasons ago, we were stifling our team, where did it get us? NOWHERE! What did it made our team? Boring! Forget about the Cups, the EPL is the Real McCoy.

This season, we played some positive football in two patches, where did it get us? TOP each time! Had we played positive football the whole season, where will it get us? 15 points clear!

Had negative football brings us the EPL, then I won't complain. No dun compare us with George Graham's Arsenal, BLackburn or LEeds. Arsenal is ARsenal, blackburn is blackburn, Leeds is Leeds, Liverpool is Liverpool, just look at our record for the past 3 seasons, which I did above. Far more teams won the EPL by being positive then being negative.

About Fowler and Heskey, there is no doubt Heskey is a great player as long as we dun make Heskey the ONLY outlet of long balls or an "out and out goalscorer" we watched Heskey and Smicer switching flanks in a 4-3-3 system against Roma, then we watched Heskey getting a ball from the wings and crossing to Smicer against Chelsea. Etc. His first touch and shooting is not the best, but his running with the ball is devestating. If we can play so well with 4-3-3. Why not play that formation week in week out. We have great pseudo winger-strikers in Heskey, Smicer, Barmby, Berger. Then one more place will enable Litmanen to drop back and dictate matches at will. Just look at Wiltord - Bergkamp - Pires (what a pity)/Henry in the last few matches. Devestating positive football at its best. Look at Arsenal, Bergkamp lack of pace isn't a hinderance to the attack, but giving the ball to Bergkamp, he is able to drop back get the ball and pick up runners like Henry, Wiltord, Lundberg with his superb passes, same for Litmanen. The 4-4-2 formation doesn't fully work for Liverpool becos of the lack of true wingers and attacking fullbacks. We would tire cos certain players will not adapt to the 4-4-2 tactics. If we have British players like the Man U midfield, it would be ideal to play 4-4-2. But our midfield is more continental with Hamann, Smicer, Berger. It seems like the 4-4-2 is hampering us rather then aiding us in many matches.

and by 4-3-3 we are sacificing very little in midfield cos we have great ball winners in Hamann and Gerrard, but we are inputing A LOT in attack. We will not be caught out either cos our full back do not attack. It would be playing to our strengths in defence while creating totaly anarchy to the opposition defences with out three prong attack with two runners from midfield. (Think of Edu and Lundberg running from midfield for Arsenal)

Of cos I believe our players are better then Arsenal due to our superb defence. Had we played like Arsenal, we will be tops cos our defence and Dudek would definately keep more clean sheets then them.

 

[MINDSCAPE]

Its the way we play which made Heskey so unpopular in small quarter of the Liverpool support. Had we concentrate on playing Heskey in the place he plays best, we would have an absolute John Barnes. Remember John Barnes is not a true winger in the sense Giggs is. He would play in tandem with Dalglish and later Beardo behind the Striker (Rush or Also).
We used to make Heskey a target man for long balls and a out and out striker which is all wrong.
Look at Emile against Roma, popping on the right wing giving Samuel and co a hard time then left with Smicer going right etc, surely not a an out and out striker. What is more amazing is that we did not play with an out and out striker in that match. Had we played Owen/Anelka and maybe rotate Litmanen/Heskey/Smicer behind them, we will have a hell of an attack.

Heskey strength lies with running with the ball. If we long ball to Heskey to control, the burst of acceleration will be gone and Heskey would have to pass the ball back, that was why he looked so ordinary in the old tactics. If we PLAYED THE BALL in his path, he would just take a touch FOREWARD and run with the ball, which is his strength.

I dun buy the argument that Heskey is not a Merseysider thus he is not ideal afterall, Dalglish, Barnes and a lot of players are not Merseysiders either.

But I do feel bitter about Fowler sale. Disregarding the fact that he is the heart and soul of the club, he is an absolute teriffic striker as his Leeds stint showed. Had we played against earlier opposition like we played in our last few matches, there is no doubt that Fowler would have looked better then scored a lot of goals in the more positive attack. We could save ourselves the trouble of buying Anelka etc. But what was done was done and we have to look foreward with the understanding that we have to keep the other creative players like Redknapp and Litmanen, treating them like Fowler will not help situation.

I feel sorry for Jari against Chelsea, he warmed up for 80 minutes before coming on, that is a total insult.

 

[Fred Elliot]

What do I have against Heskey? Let see.

1. Heskey is a target-man. There isn't much else he can do well. You have to supply him with plenty of crosses to get something out of him, and since our wings are exactly John Barnes or Macca anymore, I question the wisdom of this.


4. Emile Heskey's place of birth: Leicester

5. Robbie Fowler's place of birth: Toxteth

Hike up the ticket prices, sell the Toxteth-born crowd favourite, yup, that's gonna get all them working-class guys back into the stadium.

If I might interject

As you're talking about history lessons, I think its fair to point out that Heskey does follow in the traditional mould of target men at Liverpool, men such as Liddle and Toshack, who challenged in the air, knocked it down, held the ball and also scored.

Also, very few of Liverpool's best players have been scouse. Liddle, St John, Toshack, Keegan, Dalglish, Houghton, Barnes, Beardsley...the list goes on.

And finally, and I think Razor will agree with me here, but there doesn't actually exist, a place called toxteth. It was invented by the media.

 

[Paulinho]

As you're talking about history lessons, I think its fair to point out that Heskey does follow in the traditional mould of target men at Liverpool, men such as Liddle and Toshack, who challenged in the air, knocked it down, held the ball and also scored.

True, but that doesn't seem to be what Houllier has in mind. If we're going to have a big target-man, buy some decent wingers who'll provide him with crosses. Smicer and Berger do not fall into the category of decent wingers.

Also, very few of Liverpool's best players have been scouse. Liddle, St John, Toshack, Keegan, Dalglish, Houghton, Barnes, Beardsley...the list goes on.

And I don't have a problem with that. When you sell a local lad to make room for inferior players who aren't scouse, that's when I get pissed off.

And finally, and I think Razor will agree with me here, but there doesn't actually exist, a place called toxteth. It was invented by the media.

Yeah, and the riots never happened.