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and now,for something completely different and totally controversial...

2138 Views 83 Replies 20 Participants Last post by  Jun-Lei
i'm going to promote an ANTI-BAGGIO campaign.

everywhere i turn when looking for news - or discussion - about calcio and the Azzurri,i'm treated with some reference to what a loss it would be if he didn't make it for the WC squad,due to some supposed misjudgement by Trapattoni.
i've grown tired of all this hype already.
let's praise him for his stunning ball control,vision and finishing skills,and be grateful for what he's done for Brescia recently and the achievements of his career...let's hope he plays at this level for at least a few more years and grace pitches all over the world,possibly.

but let me add:
i don't want Roby to take away a spot on the WC squad from Montella,or Del Piero;
i don't want a 34 year-old crippled veteran with no use when the other team has the ball;
i don't want Totti eventually losing his edge because he has to work much harder in the midfield covering for Baggio's ass;
i don't want an injury waiting to happen;
i don't want someone who will create turmoil around the team simply because he isn't playing,however professional his demenour will be: the press will make it an issue;
i don't want an outcast figure whom the teammates would be looking at with suspicion,probably isolate and eventually will create an internal rift;

ultimately,i don't want any of this mess for a player who has very valid alternatives,doesn't belong in this group of players and probably can't be as good as those who will be selected in his role by now.

now,if you're tired as i am of hearing this pro-Baggio silly craze,here's the opportunity to voice your opinion
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Well, due to the fact that Baggio is injured and doubtfull for the WC, I would say let Trappatoni build and plan a team without him. But, we all know what Baggio is capable of, even after coming back from an injury. He is certainly not a DP, who needs a 3 year recovery plan and still some. I still would give confidence in Baggio over DP in leading us to victory anytime. But, Thank God we have others we could depend on besides DP and Baggio. In any case, I wish Baggio the best and DP a lot of luck. Ciao !
I disagree with your tone, but not your overall point. The fact is, it's going to be hard for Roby to be in shape for this WC, so he probably shouldn't go. That being said, I'd take a 75% percent healthy Baggio, who can serve as a backup striker AND playmaker, than a 100% percent healthy Del Piero and others. Baggio's brillance is unmatched and his form at the beginning of this season suggested he is not your avg. "34 year old crippled veteran." He is, actually, still among the greatest, most prolific and creative soccer players on the planet. For this reason, fans want to see him play in the WC. Lastly, I also disagree with your characterization of what having Roby on the team would do. I think you dramatize it a bit. Totti losing his edge covering for Roby in the midf? Can't be as good? Well, I think he's better than Inzaghi, Delpi and a 5th striker that we're due to take. Vieri and MOntella are hot right now and should probably start, even with a healthy Roby. Geez, Roby's been out since Oct., yet his stats still match some, if not most, of the strikers we are considering. I think he does belong because we can ALWAYS use another source of creativity and inspiration on the Azzurri. However, he's injured and that's a big problem.
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you got to watch any Brescia game when Baggio was playing? that was a team of 9 man running all over the pitch,Tare included, + the goalkeeper and Baggio.
i understand why Brescia Calcio would sacrifice the poor talent on their squad so that Roby can deliver his best shot once or twice in a game,Italia shouldn't do that.
late substitution in the match? there's Montella for that,and without the distraction of the constant inquiry of the media if the divone ponytail isn't playing
Inzaghi? sorry,he and Baggio are not alternatives,their duty might be the same - scoring - but they achieve it in a whole different way.and Trapattoni knows he can't rely on Vieri to be fit for the duration of the tournament,he needs at least a couple of replacements.
at this point of his career i believe Del Piero is not appreciated by Trapattoni and other coaches primarily as a scorer,more like someone who can keep possession of the ball,keep defenses on their toes,require a double team,be active in winning the ball,execute in close spaces and occasionally score.Baggio can't match what Alex brings to the table as a whole,he's not so versatile
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It is hard to mow down the achievements of a legend such as Baggio, and it is harder for successors to rise beyond the shadow cast by such a legend.
Baggio can't match what Alex brings to the table as a whole,he's not so versatile>>

And if ya believe that, I got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya. :D ;)
Interesting angle no-one (and interesting handle as well :)).

Had it not been for Roby's injury- we would have an identical discussion to what they have in Brazil concerning Romario. Well- not identical but similar in many ways.

Roberto Baggio is himself a much more pragmatic nature than Romario, but his effect on others could be the same, in so far as the presence of a man perceived as a demi-God in the public eye (read- among Italy fans) put's alot of pressure on the others to deliver. Usually pressure in the form of competition is good, but it can also be a crippling experience because fans will want their legend to start no matter what.
In the case of Baggio, if he doesn't play, both Trap and the players will always be second guessed if they don't take the trophee, because people will say "if only Baggio had played".

An in form Baggio would still be a bonus on the field for every team, but I think his presence could become too much of a burden on the players who are to LEAD Italy- not due to his performances on the field, but his sole presence in the squad- leading to detrimentory results ON the field for the TEAM.

"no-one" is correct in my opinon with regards to Baggio's workload too. In Italy- legends get respect, and Baggio needs to do less than everyone else to get good reviews. It's the fact, but I do not want to say that his early season performances weren't great or meritted a world of praise. Of course they did, but it's no more than Lamberto Zauli did for Bologna during their most exquisite run in the second half. But Baggio is Baggio and Zauli is... well.. Zauli.

For me the interesting discussion boils down to the individual not being bigger than the team. In Baggio's case it's not because of a troublesome personality, but simply as Jun-Lei puts it, because he cast a formiddable shadow.

Unlike Romario he cannot really make a case for selection though, as he IS injured, and you cannot take an injured player to the WC- especially with the form the other strikers are showing.

One can say what he want's about Del Piero and Pippo, but they're showing how important they are to their sides right now. During Del Piero's injury absence Juve played atrocious football and got very poor results. DP is back and has a splendid match at Perugia who are usually strong at home. Pippo comes back for Milan and scores 3 or 4 serie A goals in 5 matches and wins his usual penalties on top of that, inspiring a comeback for the CL position.
Montella and Vieri are beyond any questioning at this moment.

...and what about Di Viao's 17 goals ?... or Hubners lead leading 22 for that matter ? In Hubner's case- one could even say that if Trap is looking for a 'centrovanti di peso' a serie A capocannonieri is, or should be, difficult to overlook- especially given Delvecchio's contribution.

Putting Baggio in there with Montella, Del Piero, Pippo and Di Vaio for the small forward/segunda punta position is unfair when remembering his injury layoff and complete absence of match fitness. So- in essence- I agree with "no-one" on the forget Baggio theme.

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Well i would see baggio as the player who would lift the team and strike the opposition down with his mere presence something Del Primadonna cant do.

Also baggio can shine on the biggest stage, something Del Primadonna has yet to do. Btw thnaks for E2K Alex :mad:

I say go for Hubner, but if not pick Baggio as number 4!

Inzaghi, Montella, Vieri, Hubner is my ideal 4 but baggio could replace hubner

i don't want an outcast figure whom the teammates would be looking at with suspicion,probably isolate and eventually will create an internal rift;
Where did you get that from?! This is appalling. You seem frightened at the prospect of seeing Roby in the squad - why? If the other players were good enough they wouldn't be worried or disturbed by his prescence. Baggio has never done anything to jeopardise team harmony. Del Piero has been given 8 years to prove his worth..and we are still waiting for him to shine. I still don't understand what Delvecchio is doing in the squad..I can't remember when he last scored a goal.
Baggio's passion for the game is unmatched..his undying will to play for his country should not be ignored. He can offer the team talent, experience and a 'never say die attitude' that the Azzurri would greatly benefit from. And don't forget how popular he is in Asia..his prescence will certainly boost support for Italy.

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Baggio can't match what Alex brings to the table as a whole,he's not so versatile

Sorry mate, but that is SO wrong.
if baggio was fit, i would bring him of course. As i would bring chiesa fully fit and form.

however, to suggest that baggio is a better option for italy than del piero is, just doesnt justify a football player as a whole.

del piero is a forward who scores (this season for juve has has scored a lot, and for italy, he has scored heaps the past 5 or so games he has played for them).

he can also create, and do basically everything possible. he can dribble, take free kicks etc...

he can play upfront, behind and on a wing as well (as he has shown in the past)

he is the only forward, who actually works hard to defend as well. vieri, montella, inzaghi and even totti never try hard to help defend. del piero always runs back and helps out, and he actually getting very good at it as well.

baggio, fully fit and in form can dribble, not to many though as he has lost all his speed. he can take a free kick. he can create as he is a legend at it. but he cant defend and run back and do as much as del piero can.

unfortunately we are forced to bring del vecchio etc....and i'm not saying that baggio not injured shouldnt come. but i think we have to realise that del piero has had a top season, although injured these past few weeks, he has done a lot this season, as he and trezeguet were the only strikers juve had and between them they have scored 45 goals b/w them. 17 which have been del pieros, now that isnt to bad for a forward who creates and does a lot more than a forward should. and also, he has created most of trezeguets goals.

i love baggio, i always have and always will and i hope he comes back and by some assy chance, he is picked.

but NO-ONE has some good points. if he is there at the WC, he puts too much pressure on the likes of totti and del piero to perform. even montella will feel the pressure as baggio will always be mentioned to come on etc.

and totti, del piero and montella in form at the moment are better, more versitile, fitter, faster etc..than baggio would be if he could make it to japan.

just a quick thought:

panucci nesta canna maldini
del piero totti
baggio vieri montella

attacking enough :D
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Baggio IN the World Cup 2002!!!

What a looser that guy is. It's so funny how he came up with such a crap.

It's psychology of a human being to be afraid of the unknown, of the ultimate power that makes him just a little rat before the wrath of the lion. Or something like that. Hahahahhaah, that was so funny how he made all that up.

Listen pal, whoever you are, reasons why Baggio should and will go:
1. He is the best soccer player alive
2. He is far better than any other strikers on Azzuri if you still haven't figured it out through my statement 1
3. He is a natural leader
4. He has exactly what Italy lacks; heart, guts, passion, power, courage, creativity, and leadership
5. He will be fit but even if taking your points in regards it is much better being a cripple with one amazing leg than to be a cripple with two legs that Del Piero is. Oh yeah, that's right I'm sorry, he scored today against Perugia. Does anyone wants video copies of tapes with missed chances of Pinturicchio (in his dreams) of World Cup 2002. Del Pippi chokes on every single crucial ocasion his country bestwos on him in international tournaments

Ah I can go on forever, Il Divin Codino is simply the best and that's why everyone is talking about his inclusion in the World Cup squad, get it? If not get out, because the fact is Baggio is ITALY and there is no way around it,
P.S. Your whole message is laughable, get out.... Big Del Piero fan you are probably, what a bunch of noncense, even a little kid wouldn't say that crap about Baggio being a problem on the team, as someone else put it perfectly here, I speak for them too when I say MwuuuuuuuuuuuuHahahaHAHAHAHHAHAHA

Forza Roberto Baggio!!!

Time Will Tell, don't lose sight, because we will be back to talk it over buddy.
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Arguments are made about why to not include Baggio, and the Baggio cult crew lines up with attacking Del Piero (as the only one) in return.

I think the "casting a shadow" over the rest of the club argument is just as ridiculous. Look, if other players cannot handle competition or having to raise the level of their play and passion to that of Baggio, then they shouldn't start! This is about winning the Cup, bringing your best talents. No one's has any evidence at all that Roby would disrupt the Azzuri. The man just wants to be part of the team and win a Cup, and I'm sure he'll be on his best behavior. The man's a class act and has more skill, passion, desire and experience than all. Players like that rise above pettiness and strife.
Primo: If you look closer, I don't think anyone said Baggio was a troublesome charachter.

It's the other way around.

Either way... this is rather pointless as Baggio is not matchfit. The players who got Italy to the WC are + Vieri and Montella who did not contribute but should certain just the same.


Primo is right.
And Glen take a closer look yourself to what No-One wrote. If you dont' understand english then try a dictionary. It's clear that moron said that Baggio is a troublemaker.

And just so you would know, the players that got Italy to the final are more defender's merit than attackers. Italy is a soccer superpower for ages, don't tell me that their goals against lithuania and other weak countries make you think that Italy's campaign to the world cup was a contest. Of course, they did their job but for the money they're doing it's all in good. They're in their 20s playing for best clubs in teh world, what do you expect, if they wouldn't have they should have been buried. It's not like they've done a miracle. That's what is expected of Azzuri the least.

Even if taking your argumentin consideration that means people who got Italy to the world cup are, attackers: Totti, Inzaghi, Del Piero + Vieri and Montella included for the world cup team, that's 5 spots, one more left. What is delvecchio doing there? He hasn't helped Italy in their qualification campgain.

And don't play innocent as if we're attacking del piero. You mess with Baggio and we mess with Del Piero. The only reason you're defending is that you're a fan of juventus which should sell that guy right away. I was big juve fan one day and in 96-97 champions league and seria A they were unstopable, del piero was great. But then it was over for good and juve never looked the same really again. He's too much of a liability, everyone knows he's there because agnelli likes him. Juventus is a might club and they must build a team without del piero, a better team with a future. And please don't bring up his goals this season, for God's sake, the guy should be at his prime by now, of course he would score from time to time, he's a professional player.
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Can't you realise that Trappatoni does not want to pick Baggio for the simple reason that he is too "big" to sit on the bench? Note, I said too big, not too good. If Baggio goes to the World Cup it has to be as a starter. Or else whenever Del Piero or Totti miss a chance, the TV cameras will focus on Baggio's concentrated and worried look at the bench and if Del Piero misses ONE good chance whole Italy will be screaming for Baggio to play. The press, the fans, everyone. Trappatoni will be put under pressure to do something that he might not want. Italy will not have tranquility with Baggio. He will either get to start or have whole Italy screaming for him to start and the pressure will be enormous on the other players and Trappatoni. Cesare Maldini thought he could take Baggio and not start him-well thats just not possible.

Attacking Del Piero really makes no sense. The guy is going to the WC and he fully deserves and if we are to consider player who just return from injury and its questionable if they are fit, Chiesa has a stronger claim than Baggio.

Face it, Roberto Baggio cannot and will not make it. Had he had a great season then I'd have no objection for him to go, but the way things are now if he goes it will be just because his name is Roberto Baggio, and that just is not fair.

Totti, Del Piero, Vieri, Montella, Inzaghi.
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Well said AMO, and welcome back :).

CalcioItaliano: You know... I really feel rather at ease with English, so maybe you should try to actually FOLLOW the meaning of no-one's post instead of reading your own predetermined bias into it.

The only negative thing he said about Baggio as a PLAYER, was that he doesn't perform defensively, which he doesn't. He's not that kind of player, and so what ? He's still great. Problem is that it might not be enough for other reasons.

On Baggio's personality this was the content of the message-
Quote 'no-one':
"i don't want someone who will create turmoil around the team simply because he isn't playing,however professional his demenour will be: the press will make it an issue;"

..however professional his demeanour might be....

...which is the same as what AMO said. No matter how Baggio conducts himself (and I see no reason to believe it won't be in the best of ways), it will be a big issue. It's hype Trappatoni can do without- especially considering how well the alternatives have done this year. The Romario parallel again... with the exception that Romario plays regularly and scores every time. The "cannot be benched, adds pressure" etc. is the same however.

And finally on Delvecchio... we all know how Trap see's Delvecchio. As someone who can releave pressure on Vieri if some physical strenght is needed. I don't really rate him that highly, but he is a big game player, did well at the EURO tournament, and has scored 2 goals in the 3 games he started in the qualifiers. No matter how much better Baggio is than Delvecchio- they don't perform the same function.

...and again.... BAGGIO is not playing!!!

That's another of no-one's points. Why consistantly obsess on the issue when the player in question hasn't played for months and won't have any games under his belt come WC time ?

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Glen you're the one who needs to look closer, mate.

NO-ONE says:

i don't want an outcast figure whom the teammates would be looking at with suspicion,probably isolate and eventually will create an internal rift;
That is a an ignorant ( and insulting ) claim. I would like you to give me a specific example or instance when Roby has been an 'outcast' as you put it..when or where has he 'created turmoil'? We saw how important he was at France 98 and IMO, we would surely have beaten France had Baggio started in place of Del Piero.

We saw how Del Piero choked at Euro 2000, were it not for his inability to cope under pressure, we would be Euro Champs today.

Its simple common sense, you put you're best 11 on the field, and the fans and like will be happy. No worries, no drama. If you choose not to, then you've got to expect the backlash..its natural. Players have to earn their place in the side, and in my honest opinion, Del Piero or Delvecchio have not done enough to justify their place in the side. The reason they're worried is because they know for a fact that Baggio is better.

Why consistantly obsess on the issue when the player in question hasn't played for months and won't have any games under his belt come WC time ?
Because he's the best player Italy have ever produced and IMO, the best footballer ever. He was in great form before the injury and he has proved in the past that he can come back strongly after an injury layoff..he doesn't need years to regain his 'form' like Del Piero..he's a legend who has performed miracles for the Azzurri at the biggest stage.. and put simply.. he's the best at what he does.

The purpose of this thread is simple, its Anti-Baggio. If you're going to raise your frustrations on why there's so much hype regarding the absence of Baggio, I think its only fair if we're given the right to voice our disappointments on Del Piero. Baggio is in a class of his own, there's no use comparing him to Del Piero - don't let your bias for Juventus cloud reality..because when you lay down the facts..there is only one BAGGIO. He is and will always be NUMBER 1. And yes, he MUST go to Japan/Korea!
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It beats me, really, that every discussion of Baggio cannot be free of attacks on him, Del Piero, Totti, and their respective clubs. I am asking everybody to cool down, ok? I don't want this to erupt into a frenzy of who didn't see clearly who wrote what. There is such a thing called interpretation, and another thing called perspective. And nobody is obliged to agree with you totally. So I don't care which player you support or which club you can't stand. If you don't have constructive comments, then don't post.

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