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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
It's (again) time to punctualize:

DeJackal said:
In the 70s and early 80s before clubs in Europe started recruiting foreigners to compete with the best of the homegrown from their own country. England dominated Europe. Take a look at a football history book and have a look at the champions of the European Cup, UEFA Cup, and European Cup Winners Cup between 1975-1985.
English clubs got banned in 1985 from European competition and some of it's best talent went to foreigner clubs. Serie A started recruiting foreingers and so did La Liga and Bundesliga.
Serie A had started recruiting foreigners before 1985 to be precise and even if the first foreigners came in 1980 (one for each club), it was just after the success in the world cup 1982 that the very best players in the world joined serie A (the limit was raised to 2 foreigners for each club). 1982-83 was a key-season cause it represented the season in which the English clubs stopped dominating. Infact seven English clubs were eliminated before the final (Aston Villa were destroyed by Juventus in the Champions Cup, Ipswich Town were eliminated by Roma in the UEF Cup... first signals of the end of the domination). On the contrary there were just five Italian clubs and Juventus gained the final of the Champions Cup, lost to HSV in Athens.
One year later six English clubs and just four Italian clubs. Roma lost to Liverpool just after PKs in the final of Champions Cup, but Juventus eliminated Man Utd in the semifinals of Cups Winners Cup and then won the trophy. The UEFA Cup was won by Tottenham.
One year later Juventus defeated Liverpool in the Supercup (double Boniek) then Juventus and Liverpool met again at the Heysel and it's useless to say what happened.
Everton won the Cups Winners Cup. Again just two Italian clubs in the UEFA Cup but Inter did better than all the English clubs (five!) gaining a semifinal (lost to Real Madrid).
So the end of the domination of England was indeed 1982 and the ban was not the cause of it. Simply the Italian clubs were slowly improving.

It's also wrong stating that the best talents left English leagues because of the ban. Brady joined Juventus in 1980, Francis joined Samp in 1982, Souness joined Samp in 1984, Blissett (talent... eheh... yet) joined Milan in 1983, Hateley and Wilkins joined Milan in 1984... apart Rush (uh!) I hardly remember a player joining serie A from English leagues during the ban. Anyway the flux (small) existed before and continued to be small. So... ban not involved again.

The ENglish clubs when allowed back into European competition was coming back into a competition were other leagues had the best foreigners. So what did the EPL teams do to catch up? They got their own foreigners.
The best foreigners were already in the other leagues even before the ban...
Platini and Boniek from 1982, Maradona from 1984 (at Barça before), Zico from 1983, etc. the English clubs could try to get them but they didn't.
 

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ToniSamp said:
Brady joined Juventus in 1980
Brady left us because we were crap and he was far too good to be playing in a rabble of a team like we were back then. He would've stayed otherwise.
 

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No, No, No.
It is a must needed topic that happens each season, It is like Easter, Halloween. It is time for Doc and King of Kop to show up and make the topic get alive and go nowhere so it can be re-started again when the new cicle starts.
It is like the England (sorry Britain) 100 Years of Football Domination, a tradition.
 

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Brilliant post ToniSamp. I learned more from you today than I did at the University.
 

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Fred Elliot said:
What are you Studying Andr3w
I'm a freshman, so I have to finish up the required courses, like Macroeconomics. After that either meteorology or international business will be my choice for a Major.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
King of the Kop said:
Iv already killed this theory many a time, dont have the time or motivation.
There is not a theory to kill... infact there is not a theory. The facts speak by themselves and I simply posted the facts. if you think the facts are different you are free to post them. Or if you say you are bored a link to your past posts in which you killed the theory is sufficient, killer. :D
 

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It is indeed true. You can not defeat facts and unless ToniSamp is lying, you have a lot to try and prove if you think he is wrong.
 

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Toni

Liverpool reached 2 finals in 2 consecutive years... 84 & 85. 84 they beat Roma in ROME on PK!!!

Everton won the Cup Winners cup in 85!!!

Also, the team Liverpool had in 88, it could have gonne neck a neck with Euro champs PSV Eindhoven. I'm not saying they would win, but they had a good shot.... cause the team was brill.... as was PSV also!
 
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I think ToniSamp has a point, that the English league full of homegrown talens was strong, and that for the Italians to compete.......they had to buy foreigners.

Liverpool would have gone far, but Everton had a great team in 1985-1987, which was arguably better than Liverpool. Actually they won the league twice inbetween those years but were not allowed to compete in the European Cup because obviously the ban, despite having the team that Lineker said was the best players he's ever played with, but they were forced to sell players like Gary Lineker because they weren't in the European Cup.


--------------------Southall-------------------
-----------------------------------------------
G. Stevens---Ratcliffe--Mountfield----V.D. Hauwe
-----------------------------------------------
T. Stevens---Bracewell---P.Reid----Richardson--
-----------------------------------------------
----------------Sharp--------Lineker-----------

We want to look at real facts or Toni Samps speculation? Let's look at the facts.........

EUROPEAN CUP
1977 - Liverpool (champions)
1978 - Liverpool (champions)
1979 - Nottm Forest (champions)
1980 - Nottm Forest (champions)
1981 - Liverpool (champions)
1982 - Aston Villa (champions)
1984 - Liverpool (champions)
1985 - Liverpool (runners-up)
1986 - english clubs banned
1987 - english clubs banned
1988 - english clubs banned
1989 - english clubs banned
1990 - english clubs banned

Here's speculation....the champions that weren't
1986 - Everton
1987 - Liverpool
1988 - Everton
1989 - Liverpool etc

English clubs not banned from Europe would still be at least one of the top 2, instead it suffered.....and badly. But it became the birth of the Premier League.......which is the envy of posters like Toni Samp. :dielaugh:
 

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In England they did have foreigners... but not many and they were not exactly teh world stars, but very good players.

Ex: Jesper Olsen
Jan Molby
Nico Clasen
Ossie Ardiles
Glen Hysen
Roland Nilsson
Mirandinha
Eric Thordsvet (can't spell)
 

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JCamilo said:
It is like the England (sorry Britain) 100 Years of Football Domination, a tradition.
I think is time for that again :drool:
 

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So Serie A only caught up when they started importing players by the masses, while during the ban the influx of foreigner players in the english league continued the same (just a few). I guess now its even, took then almost a decade to become a descent destination for foreigner players.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Ze da Fiel said:
Toni

Liverpool reached 2 finals in 2 consecutive years... 84 & 85. 84 they beat Roma in ROME on PK!!!

Everton won the Cup Winners cup in 85!!!
Iwrote all these things in my post, read it again.
The Italian clubs reaced 3! Champions Cup finals in 3 seasons. Do you cal it English domination?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
DeJackal said:
I think ToniSamp has a point, that the English league full of homegrown talens was strong, and that for the Italians to compete.......they had to buy foreigners.
I have never said that English clubs did not have foreign players. If you ignore the fact that in the English leagues there were foreigners then read "your books" better.
Tell me something about the English NT in the world cups 1978 and 1982 if you want to talk about homegrown players in that period....

Liverpool would have gone far, but Everton had a great team in 1985-1987, which was arguably better than Liverpool. Actually they won the league twice inbetween those years but were not allowed to compete in the European Cup because obviously the ban, despite having the team that Lineker said was the best players he's ever played with, but they were forced to sell players like Gary Lineker because they weren't in the European Cup.
They were forced to buy 1 player. Where is the flux of talents who had to leave the English leagues according to your previous post.

--------------------Southall-------------------
-----------------------------------------------
G. Stevens---Ratcliffe--Mountfield----V.D. Hauwe
-----------------------------------------------
T. Stevens---Bracewell---P.Reid----Richardson--
-----------------------------------------------
----------------Sharp--------Lineker-----------

--------------------------Ciuccio
Pirillo---------Minghiuzzi---------Tombini------Scannavacca
Palluzzi--------Caccamo---------Baubau------Coccofresco
---------------Cotechinho-------Mazzamauro

Well?
Well?

We want to look at real facts or Toni Samps speculation? Let's look at the facts.........

EUROPEAN CUP
1977 - Liverpool (champions)
1978 - Liverpool (champions)
1979 - Nottm Forest (champions)
1980 - Nottm Forest (champions)
1981 - Liverpool (champions)
1982 - Aston Villa (champions)
These are facts I have not denied: English clubs dominated till 1981-82. Read better my post.


1984 - Liverpool (champions)
1985 - Liverpool (runners-up)
These are also facts I have not denied. Again, read better my posts.
Yet, consider that
1983 - Juventus (runners-up)
1984 - Roma (runners-up)
1985 - Juventus (champions)

I think that a country dominated by another country should not have more finalists in the most important cup.

These

1986 - english clubs banned
1987 - english clubs banned
1988 - english clubs banned
1989 - english clubs banned
1990 - english clubs banned

Here's speculation....the champions that weren't
1986 - Everton
1987 - Liverpool
1988 - Everton
1989 - Liverpool etc
Yes , these are speculations, but if you want I can say:
2000 before Christ - Juventus :crybaby:

English clubs not banned from Europe would still be at least one of the top 2, instead it suffered.....and badly. But it became the birth of the Premier League.......which is the envy of posters like Toni Samp. :dielaugh:
The argument of the envy is the best one! The son of my sister, who is 3 years old, could hardly write abetter argument. :crybaby:
 

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DeJackal said:
EUROPEAN CUP
1977 - Liverpool (champions)
1978 - Liverpool (champions)
1979 - Nottm Forest (champions)
1980 - Nottm Forest (champions)
1981 - Liverpool (champions)
1982 - Aston Villa (champions)
1984 - Liverpool (champions)
1985 - Liverpool (runners-up)
1986 - english clubs banned
1987 - english clubs banned
1988 - english clubs banned
1989 - english clubs banned
1990 - english clubs banned

Here's speculation....the champions that weren't
1986 - Everton
1987 - Liverpool
1988 - Everton
1989 - Liverpool etc
QUOTE]

Dont worry, im sure English clubs would of suddenly stopped competing after 1985 even if we werent banned :smileani:
 
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