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post #641 of 711 (permalink) Old September 12th, 2019, 12:21
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I can't read his mind obviously, but he always seemed to me to be dedicated to American sovereignty, which in some way is putting America First, even if I strongly disagree with this gung ho, offensive strategy of his. At least he doesn't believe in liberal democracy promotion like regular Neocons, he's more of a Hobbesian than a Kantian, you might say.

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Ive probably been the poster with most number of heated discussions in this board over the years.... and I can assure you I won at least 90% of them.
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post #642 of 711 (permalink) Old September 12th, 2019, 12:52
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Link to the Cuba WMD stuff? Anyway, I can't read his mind obviously, but he always seemed to me to be dedicated to American sovereignty, which in some way is putting America First, even if I strongly disagree with this gung ho, offensive strategy of his. At least he doesn't believe in liberal democracy promotion like regular Neocons, he's more of a Hobbesian than a Kantian, you might say.
He does promote liberal democracy in the Kantian way....in the form of an argument for regime change for "problem" countries.

What his ideology may be wouldn't tell us much anyway. It's what he does that matters and what he does makes many neocons AND neolibs happy. You'd think his firing would have seen some relief on from the corporate Dems. Instead, you have Pelosi slamming Trump as if it was better to keep him than let him go. Of course, Bolton and his band of merry neocons want to bomb the same countries that they do.

She wrote this:

"John Bolton's sudden departure is a symbol of the disarray that has unnerved our allies since day one of the Trump Administration. Steady leadership & strategic foreign policy is key to ensuring America’s national security".

I'm not sure how you can distill what his values are when he seems to not have no values at all. Add to that the fact that his day job has been almost singly about beating war drums non-stop.

Regarding Cuba, well, take your pick from these sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_R...an_WMD_program

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post #643 of 711 (permalink) Old September 12th, 2019, 13:21
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Bolton's approach to the Middle East is "rubble don't make trouble", which more Hobbesian than Kantian.

Pelosi and other Democrats are just milking any controversy in the White House, under normal circumstances they'll call him an Islamophobe and what not.

I'd compare him to Mike Pompeo in some ways, though Pompeo is more restrained (and a smarter guy). Pompeo has greatly reduced the refugee resettlement program, that progam being a threat to national security in the long term. Neocons like Bill Kristol or John McCain wouldn't do that, and Libs wouldn't be caught dead doing it.

In any case, I didn't defend his policies and the outcomes of them, only the motivations, which are more patriotic than those of the other people you refer to, imo.

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Originally Posted by Ze da Fiel View Post
Ive probably been the poster with most number of heated discussions in this board over the years.... and I can assure you I won at least 90% of them.
dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghat ka
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post #644 of 711 (permalink) Old September 12th, 2019, 21:01
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Article from 7 weeks ago about Trump-Bolton relationship

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9015061.html

Answers the question of why Trump recruited him....he always saw him as a moron, just used him to look more benevolent in comparison
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post #645 of 711 (permalink) Old September 12th, 2019, 23:35
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Originally Posted by kırmızımavi View Post
Article from 7 weeks ago about Trump-Bolton relationship

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a9015061.html

Answers the question of why Trump recruited him....he always saw him as a moron, just used him to look more benevolent in comparison

It's not unlikely that Trump used to like his "bold" style of punditry on FoxNews, but that his estimation for him fell after Tucker began ridiculing him constantly. "Never saw a war he didn't like" is a headline straight out of Tucker Carlson tonight.

So far, FoxNews has sort of held together despite being inconsistent on some issues, to put it mildly. It'll be interesting to see going forward. The arms industry are some of the few major donors the GOP, and conservatives more broadly, have got left. Who else will fund the RNC, AEI, the Heritage Foundation if they go truly America First?

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Originally Posted by Ze da Fiel View Post
Ive probably been the poster with most number of heated discussions in this board over the years.... and I can assure you I won at least 90% of them.
dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghat ka
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post #646 of 711 (permalink) Old September 13th, 2019, 01:17
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Originally Posted by Morierinho View Post
Bolton's approach to the Middle East is "rubble don't make trouble", which more Hobbesian than Kantian.

Pelosi and other Democrats are just milking any controversy in the White House, under normal circumstances they'll call him an Islamophobe and what not.

I'd compare him to Mike Pompeo in some ways, though Pompeo is more restrained (and a smarter guy). Pompeo has greatly reduced the refugee resettlement program, that progam being a threat to national security in the long term. Neocons like Bill Kristol or John McCain wouldn't do that, and Libs wouldn't be caught dead doing it.

In any case, I didn't defend his policies and the outcomes of them, only the motivations, which are more patriotic than those of the other people you refer to, imo.
There you go again...reaching into his head and coming out with pureness of intention. The guy came out - totally contrary to Trump's game plan - and publicly announced to the North Koreans that they're going to get the Libya treatment. I don't know...it just doesn't sound like a guy who has his nation's best interests at heart.

"Rubble don't make trouble" seems to be the view of the neolibs in addition to the neocons, no? Like Bolton, they were against Trump pulling out of Syria. Now look at the people mourining Bolton's departure...from both sides. They certainly seem to be cut from the same cloth despite being from different parties.

But you know the famous saying: one man's patriot is another's Military Industrial Complex-cheerleading fvckwad.
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These last years after the CL win I noticed when following the Inter online community that many fans have turned into cvcksuckers.
R.I.P: Tazzy, Flo.
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post #647 of 711 (permalink) Old September 13th, 2019, 13:20
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The libs actually believe they can turn the rubble into democracy, that's the difference.

Again, the Libs certainly aren't mourning him, they just want chaos in the admin. They made a similar fuzz when Tillerson was ousted, even though he had been accused of being a Big Oil shill, a Russia shill.

The Neocon establishment had misgivings about Bolton too, though he's more in line with them.



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There you go again...reaching into his head and coming out with pureness of intention. The guy came out - totally contrary to Trump's game plan - and publicly announced to the North Koreans that they're going to get the Libya treatment. I don't know...it just doesn't sound like a guy who has his nation's best interests at heart.
If he actually believes those countries pose a threat. You are "reaching into his head" and come out with the idea that he doesn't believe they do.

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Originally Posted by Ze da Fiel View Post
Ive probably been the poster with most number of heated discussions in this board over the years.... and I can assure you I won at least 90% of them.
dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghat ka
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post #648 of 711 (permalink) Old September 13th, 2019, 22:11
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The libs actually believe they can turn the rubble into democracy, that's the difference.

Again, the Libs certainly aren't mourning him, they just want chaos in the admin. They made a similar fuzz when Tillerson was ousted, even though he had been accused of being a Big Oil shill, a Russia shill.

The Neocon establishment had misgivings about Bolton too, though he's more in line with them.





If he actually believes those countries pose a threat. You are "reaching into his head" and come out with the idea that he doesn't believe they do.
I haven't actually committed to knowing what's in his head, but most things point that way.

It takes some extreme Nelsonian blindness and cognitive dissonance to believe that what he advocates for is for the good of the country and patriotic. He doesn't have to care for the hundreds of thousands of innocent foreign lives lost, but surely there should be some reasoned thought when it comes to the lives of the soldiers from his own country. Or to believe that any of the wars he's advocated for (and which occurred) have resulted in regional stability or that they've made Americans any safer. Here's a simple test: how many lives were lost before these wars as compared to after? Is it patriotic to keep multiplying terrorist cells and then even help fund 2 major groups in Syria? None of it computes, given that his position requires him to have access to intelligence and basic information. And yet, he still never hesitates to call for wars.

And from that backdrop, "patriotic" is your takeaway?
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These last years after the CL win I noticed when following the Inter online community that many fans have turned into cvcksuckers.
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post #649 of 711 (permalink) Old September 14th, 2019, 14:51
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I haven't actually committed to knowing what's in his head, but most things point that way.

It takes some extreme Nelsonian blindness and cognitive dissonance to believe that what he advocates for is for the good of the country and patriotic. He doesn't have to care for the hundreds of thousands of innocent foreign lives lost, but surely there should be some reasoned thought when it comes to the lives of the soldiers from his own country. Or to believe that any of the wars he's advocated for (and which occurred) have resulted in regional stability or that they've made Americans any safer. Here's a simple test: how many lives were lost before these wars as compared to after? Is it patriotic to keep multiplying terrorist cells and then even help fund 2 major groups in Syria? None of it computes, given that his position requires him to have access to intelligence and basic information. And yet, he still never hesitates to call for wars.

And from that backdrop, "patriotic" is your takeaway?
So fx Liberal policies on crime, family, education, etc. have been a massive failure for 50-60 years, and yet they keep proposing more of the same. And I do beieve that they themselves believe they're right (most of them anyway), despite so much evidence to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by Ze da Fiel View Post
Ive probably been the poster with most number of heated discussions in this board over the years.... and I can assure you I won at least 90% of them.
dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghat ka
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post #650 of 711 (permalink) Old September 14th, 2019, 23:12
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So fx Liberal policies on crime, family, education, etc. have been a massive failure for 50-60 years, and yet they keep proposing more of the same. And I do beieve that they themselves believe they're right (most of them anyway), despite so much evidence to the contrary.
1. That's a false equivalence. In relation to the liberal policies, there are many factors at play. Because of this, the causal premise you make may not be accepted. People can take shelter in all sorts of things, including Repub policies, differing academic viewpoints, etc. For Bolton, it's very different. He doesn't need to distill arguments which fly in the face of each other to determine how many people died in a drone strike, whether Iraq became stable after the invasion, or whether there is more or less terrorism after the fact. He doesn't need to parse information from Repubs and Dems; he only needs to rely on the intelligence departments, which he has access to since this is supposed to be his job anyway.

2. You've cast the net pretty wide, haven't you? Who are "they"? To your point though, I'd say with virtual certainty that there will be people who are dishonest, there will be people who are wilfully blind, and there will be people who genuinely believe it. Give a specific example because this obviously operates on a case-by-case basis.

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These last years after the CL win I noticed when following the Inter online community that many fans have turned into cvcksuckers.
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post #651 of 711 (permalink) Old September 15th, 2019, 00:22
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It's not different. Foreign policy is just as complicated as domestic policy. Bolton (and many of the intelligence assesments on which he relies) would argue that the world actually would have been worse off had Saddam not been removed and no drone strikes carried out against Al Qaeda and ISIS and so on, and that in any case the lessons from Iraq aren't directly applicaple to fx Iran.

As for "they," take a random sample from Center for American Progress or any other lefty thinktank, or from an Ivy League faculty, or the NYT newsroom.

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Originally Posted by Ze da Fiel View Post
Ive probably been the poster with most number of heated discussions in this board over the years.... and I can assure you I won at least 90% of them.
dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghat ka
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post #652 of 711 (permalink) Old September 15th, 2019, 08:19
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It's not different. Foreign policy is just as complicated as domestic policy. Bolton (and many of the intelligence assesments on which he relies) would argue that the world actually would have been worse off had Saddam not been removed and no drone strikes carried out against Al Qaeda and ISIS and so on, and that in any case the lessons from Iraq aren't directly applicaple to fx Iran.

As for "they," take a random sample from Center for American Progress or any other lefty thinktank, or from an Ivy League faculty, or the NYT newsroom.
It's really not as complicated. Causes can be blamed on things like fatherless homes or institutional racism or the prison industry and so on. Right or wrong, there's a lot of support for a number of these positions. In Bolton's case, there's a consensus even in the US that Libya was a failure. That's going to be a big part of the reason that Trump (a Repub) fired Bolton. Unless you also believe his resignation story.

But you know what? Keep this charitable attitude and keep imputing good faith. It looks good on you.

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These last years after the CL win I noticed when following the Inter online community that many fans have turned into cvcksuckers.
R.I.P: Tazzy, Flo.
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post #653 of 711 (permalink) Old September 15th, 2019, 10:21
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There you go again...reaching into his head and coming out with pureness of intention. The guy came out - totally contrary to Trump's game plan - and publicly announced to the North Koreans that they're going to get the Libya treatment. I don't know...it just doesn't sound like a guy who has his nation's best interests at heart.

"Rubble don't make trouble" seems to be the view of the neolibs in addition to the neocons, no? Like Bolton, they were against Trump pulling out of Syria. Now look at the people mourining Bolton's departure...from both sides. They certainly seem to be cut from the same cloth despite being from different parties.

But you know the famous saying: one man's patriot is another's Military Industrial Complex-cheerleading fvckwad.
If you caught this guy beating up an old lady Mori would say "He thought that woman was a danger to his children. I don't believe the old lady was a threat nor is there any sort of evidence to back this up but Bolton's intentions were pure."

Buraya buraya Deli Ibo Burayaaaaaaaaa
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post #654 of 711 (permalink) Old September 15th, 2019, 13:39
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You remind of the people who say "of course it's because the NRA are paying them off, it can't simply be a difference of opinion, anyone can see how foolish the gun laws are." I think that's a naive view of human nature, if anything.

Btw Baltimore is Baltimore because structural racism and lack of federal funding, so we can solve it by making rosey films and school books about Harriet Tubman, letting criminals out of jail, and paying more money, money, money...
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Originally Posted by Ze da Fiel View Post
Ive probably been the poster with most number of heated discussions in this board over the years.... and I can assure you I won at least 90% of them.
dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghat ka
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post #655 of 711 (permalink) Old September 16th, 2019, 13:26
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ha! i read about height. nacka, you are mongoloid.
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post #656 of 711 (permalink) Old September 18th, 2019, 12:51
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Well said. Heads should roll at the New York Slimes.

The endless witch hunt by the disgusting and pathetic Dems of Justice Kavanaugh shows how desperate they are. I wish he would sue these .****ers into oblivion.

Ivan Rakitic: "We have this special bond. When you put the sacred Croatia shirt on you become another person...this is something all of us have in us, and it will be in us to the very last moment.”

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post #657 of 711 (permalink) Old September 18th, 2019, 12:59
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It shows what they can get away with.

I'm sorry to always be the one with the blackpill.
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Originally Posted by Ze da Fiel View Post
Ive probably been the poster with most number of heated discussions in this board over the years.... and I can assure you I won at least 90% of them.
dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghat ka
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post #658 of 711 (permalink) Old September 18th, 2019, 14:38
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will The Donald be good friends with the now possible Hungarian government in Jerusalem too, I wonder?

before you axe, both Gantz and Lapid are Magyarinos


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post #659 of 711 (permalink) Old September 18th, 2019, 16:17
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Why not, they're fellow nationalists in favour of border walls.

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Ive probably been the poster with most number of heated discussions in this board over the years.... and I can assure you I won at least 90% of them.
dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghat ka
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post #660 of 711 (permalink) Old September 18th, 2019, 22:39
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but none of Gantz, Lapid, even Avigdor are friends with Bibi

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