Future of the Eredivisie & Eerste Divisie - Xtratime Community
View Poll Results: What Competition Structure Would You Like to See?
16 Team Eredivisie & 18 Team Eerste Divisie 2 40.00%
16 Team Eredivisie & 22 Team Eerste Divisie 0 0%
18 Team Eredivisie & 16 Team Eerste Divisie 2 40.00%
18 Team Eredivisie & 20 Team Eerste Divisie 1 20.00%
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old December 4th, 2013, 06:27 Thread Starter
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Future of the Eredivisie & Eerste Divisie

After RBC, AGOVV, Veendam and Haarlem have all defaulted in the last few years the Dutch professional league system has had quite a shake up.

I wonder if the KNVB now regret instilling virtually 4 'dummy' teams in Achilles and the reserve teams of Ajax, PSV and Twente to make it a 20 team second league once again, after it was momentarily reduced to 18 teams.

The problem with having these 4 teams is that:

a) They can't get promoted;
b) They do not get the monetary benefits of finishing in a good position or winning a period title; &
c) Other reserve teams, mainly those of Feyenoord, AZ and Vitesse are disadvantaged in comparison to those of Ajax, PSV and Twente.

I understand that in Spain the B teams of Real, Barca etc. play in the Segunda Division but Spain is a large country with many professional leagues.

Lets not ignore the Eredivisie in all this. There is no doubt that the level of teams has dropped in recent years due to the mass exodus of the best players in the league but that is not something that can be controlled.

What about the bottom of the table though? Does the Eredivisie really need 18 teams when superior leagues such as Portugal and Russia have 16?

When i look at the Eredivisie i see too many teams who are mediocre and cannot make a challenge to threaten even the mid table sides in the league. This includes the likes of Go Ahead, Cambuur, ADO, RKC and ,even though they are doing well now, inevitably Zwolle.

Should the Eredivisie be downsized to 16 teams? Should the Eerste Divisie also get rid of the 4 dummy teams? Or is it good just the way it is?
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old December 4th, 2013, 08:58
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Belgium too has just 16 sides but they compensate the fewer games with the play-offs. Portugal has the League Cup (which no one attends).
Russia, well, it's a league run by a couple of companies. Nothing to do with having to balance the books.

I think Eredivisie clubs will be concerned with fewer games so an answer has to be found. I'm no big fan of play-offs.

As for the quality of the Eredivisie, I'm fine with as it is and keeping it to 18. Feyenoord has difficulty against everyone

Regarding the Eerste Divisie, I haven't followed it at all this season and I'm not sure yet what the benefits are to the Jong Ajax, PSV and Twente sides. It's too early to draw any conclusion. In theory their players will face tougher opposition in the Jupiler League which will lead to quicker development but has the addition of them actually led to higher attendances when they come to town or benefited the league in general?


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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old December 4th, 2013, 09:58 Thread Starter
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Well there already are play-offs in the Eredivisie and the Dutch clubs start qualifying for Europe much earlier than the bigger European leagues as well so im not sure if 4 less games per season is a big argument.

I agree with you about the Jupiler League. It seems a bit of a one way street in terms of the Jong Ajax, PSV and Twente sides. In theory they get all the benefits.
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old December 4th, 2013, 12:16
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Would you like play-offs for all teams like in Belgium?
The idea being more revenue and more big games.

More importantly than having a 16, 18 or 20 team league, I think tactical realism is also something Dutch managers need to think of. It's nice seeing Bosz go gung-ho in the Eredivisie but I dread to think of how it'll plan out in Europe, even if he has his Chelsea loanees in his squad by the beginning of August.
Tactically Cocu has been found wanting too. Feyenoord I think simply had less quality than Kuban Krasnodar.

One other thing I don't understand. Less related. NAC, every year round about this time always have to go round begging to the local council. Groningen, who are similarly sized don't have to as they always manage to sell youngsters. Why do NAC always seem to get 34 year olds? of course there's the occasional younger player like Botteghin (who then leaves on a bosman) but they always seem to want to go for routine instead of thinking about developing players and selling them on to balance the books.


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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old December 4th, 2013, 13:55
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For me the quality of the league isn't ruled by the amount of teams in it (even though the Swiss league has proved a 10 team league to be a success).
It is more about there being more investment in the league. That won't happen over night.


I don't suppose the country has any plans to change it in the future do they?
The only way they'll want to take action is if the country's national team starts to slip way down the rankings.
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old December 4th, 2013, 18:40
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I would reform the entire league system, to be honest. The Saturday-Sunday division in amateur football belongs in the 1950s. I would have:
  • 16 team Eredivisie (prof. clubs only)
  • 16 team Eerste Divisie (prof. clubs, semi-prof. clubs and amateur clubs but no youth teams)
  • 16 team Tweede Divisie
  • 16 team Derde Divisie

etc. etc.

No playoffs of any kind and from the Derde Divisie, we should probably regionalize the league in some way.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old December 5th, 2013, 12:25 Thread Starter
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I hear you Slag but tbh it is highly unlikely that a change of that scale will take place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally View Post
Would you like play-offs for all teams like in Belgium?
The idea being more revenue and more big games.

More importantly than having a 16, 18 or 20 team league, I think tactical realism is also something Dutch managers need to think of.
No, not really. I mean i completely agree that there should be relegation play-offs and am indifferent to the EL play-offs but no additional ones should be had.

If the amount of games being played is an issue then maybe 2 legs in the cup like they have in Spain is an option. As i said, getting rid of 2 teams from the Eredivisie won't change the money coming in nor the match conditioning of the players all that much.

I completely agree with you on the tactical intelligence, especially in Europe. It seems that Dutch teams are somewhat naive when playing in Europe, which is mainly seen in the players not making smart fouls, backing away from challenges or not making the most when getting fouled.

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Originally Posted by boumavilla View Post
For me the quality of the league isn't ruled by the amount of teams in it.
Can't it be argued that if you cut down the amount of teams in the league then mediocre teams like NAC and ADO who would have comfortably saved themselves in previous years would now be in the midst of a relegation battle and then be forced into making smarter moves on the transfer market (see Wally's post about NAC getting 34 year olds on Bosmans).
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old December 5th, 2013, 17:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Rabbit View Post
Can't it be argued that if you cut down the amount of teams in the league then mediocre teams like NAC and ADO who would have comfortably saved themselves in previous years would now be in the midst of a relegation battle and then be forced into making smarter moves on the transfer market (see Wally's post about NAC getting 34 year olds on Bosmans).
You can argue both sides! But with a smaller league I think it wouldn't be as entertaining, mostly because teams won't like taking as many risks, like the Premier League where all teams try to survive down the bottom by sitting back and not trying to win games as much.

Also if teams went down they would struggle to make it back up due to the lack of finance into the leagues below the Eredivisie.

That's why having a bigger top division helps with more money for more teams. Or atleast I think it does for the Eredivisie.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old December 5th, 2013, 19:29
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First of all we should 'open up' the league format between professional and amateur football I think, that's the case in any country but the Netherlands (and Scotland, but they've got four (semi-)professional leagues).

As for the amateurs
As what's the current state, after the 2015/2016 season it's compulsory the Topklasse champions promotes to Jupiler League, no matter what. But then we arrive where it's all about, compulsory for teams participating in Eredivisie or Jupiler League is:
- having 16 professional players with a contract
- to meet all the accommodation rules ('enough' light for live TV-coverage, seperated away stand, huge main stand (at least I thought 1500 seats) etc. etc.)
- to drop the demand of playing your home matches on the same day as you're used to

Achilles doesn't meet two out of three here, but if they want to start the 2015/2016 season in Jupiler League as well, they've got to meet all those rules, which they can't as it will make them going bankrupt.
Only way for KNVB and VVCS is to drop these rules and make it likeable for clubs to go up.

On the other hand, the Saturday/Sunday seperation should be stopped and regionalized, like Slag pointed out.
Saturday teams like IJsselmeervogels, Spakenburg, Quick Boys etc. have to accept they can't play always on Saturday and even have to play sometimes on Sunday, albeit away. They have to drop these religious motives, or accept they'll never play higher than for example Hoofdklasse.

As for the reserve-teams
I'd say, just look the the German and Spanish example and you're there. If you ask me, they shouldn't be integrated at all...

Anyone but FOX agrees it's competitievervalsing (heeelp) like it is now. So there first of all should be a seperated list of 1st and 2nd team players with three or so players who can play for both sides. Secondly they shouldn't play in big stadiums, but like in Germany and Spain in small stadiums.

Also, I think you should either enter them all, or leave them all out. But then, where do you start? In Germany and Spain all clubs who want it have a reserve side playing in the normal league pyramid. From the highest to lowest level.
In the Netherlands now there are three in the league pyramid while the rest is outside in its own competition. Best would to let them all enter at the 10th level, but that's no option I fear...

Only solution for me; leave them out and let Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord loan their players to Almere, Eindhoven and Excelsior or whoever else they want.
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old December 5th, 2013, 20:48
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As Knoert said, why not just link up more top division clubs to lower league clubs? Like Feyenoord and Excelsior.

As for competitievervalsing, it probably translates most literally to competition falsing...a good definition would be: it's ruining the competition, it's not making the competition legitimate or worthwhile.
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old December 6th, 2013, 05:11 Thread Starter
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I completely agree with Knoert about the Reserve teams.

As for the Amateur teams, im not educated enough on this topic to have an opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boumavilla View Post
You can argue both sides! But with a smaller league I think it wouldn't be as entertaining, mostly because teams won't like taking as many risks, like the Premier League where all teams try to survive down the bottom by sitting back and not trying to win games as much.

Also if teams went down they would struggle to make it back up due to the lack of finance into the leagues below the Eredivisie.

That's why having a bigger top division helps with more money for more teams. Or atleast I think it does for the Eredivisie.
Not really. Dutch teams can't defend firstly and secondly they bottom teams in the Eredivisie don't play really defensive as it is so why would it change?

Teams won't necessarily find it hard to make get back up. The champion will automatically promote and we saw this season that Go Ahead were successful in the play-offs.

Nobody watches a NAC-ADO game unless they are fans of the clubs so its not like cutting two teams will make much of a difference in entertainment terms.
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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old December 6th, 2013, 16:00
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Quote:
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Not really. Dutch teams can't defend firstly and secondly they bottom teams in the Eredivisie don't play really defensive as it is so why would it change?

Teams won't necessarily find it hard to make get back up. The champion will automatically promote and we saw this season that Go Ahead were successful in the play-offs.

Nobody watches a NAC-ADO game unless they are fans of the clubs so its not like cutting two teams will make much of a difference in entertainment terms.
You're saying that less teams in the league will induce more spending? But where's the money in the first place?
So there'd simply be less teams at the end of the day, which would be more boring because there are...well less teams to enjoy watching...
Which brings me to 'NAC-ADO' type games, I actually think they're some of the most entertaining: no certain winner, the teams have a go, and there's tonnes of goals!

What I'm saying is, for teams that go down, in your scenario, they'll have spent money they don't have to buy players that, when they go down, can no longer afford...the club goes downhill due to financial problems and clubs will suffer because they don't have the financial backing of being in the Eredivisie. So weaker teams come up from the Jupiler League which replace stronger teams = weaker league.

The Eredivisie is fine as it is, 18 teams is already a cut from the Premier League's 20.
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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old December 6th, 2013, 18:13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boumavilla View Post
You're saying that less teams in the league will induce more spending? But where's the money in the first place?
So there'd simply be less teams at the end of the day, which would be more boring because there are...well less teams to enjoy watching...
Which brings me to 'NAC-ADO' type games, I actually think they're some of the most entertaining: no certain winner, the teams have a go, and there's tonnes of goals!

What I'm saying is, for teams that go down, in your scenario, they'll have spent money they don't have to buy players that, when they go down, can no longer afford...the club goes downhill due to financial problems and clubs will suffer because they don't have the financial backing of being in the Eredivisie. So weaker teams come up from the Jupiler League which replace stronger teams = weaker league.

The Eredivisie is fine as it is, 18 teams is already a cut from the Premier League's 20.
The NAC-ADO type games are sometimes the most entertaining I totally agree, but that is as much down to poor defending and poor sides as anything else, they do have a go as they see a golden chance of three points, but unless you are a fan of either of these types of teams then the fixtures hardly set the pulse racing or are anticipated with spine tingling excitement.
Sadly all leagues around the world have those types of games, the Hull-Palace game last week was a case in point, I work with some City fans and they weren't even enthused about it and it is 'the best league in the world'.

It is tough to please all of the people all of the time!
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