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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old October 14th, 2009, 11:29 Thread Starter
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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old October 14th, 2009, 23:40
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I seriously think this is the future of football. The smaller leagues have to do something to increase the level of the competition, which would lead to higher incomes and, finally, to better teams.

I don't know if nationalism plays a big role here, but it should not.
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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old October 14th, 2009, 23:56
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Well it's clear the Eredivisie is getting further and further behind the big 3 leagues so something must be done. I suppose we'd see Ajax, Feyenoord, PSV, Rangers, Celtic, Swedish clubs like Kalmar, Elfsborg and Göteborg, Norwegian clubs like Stabaek, Rosenborg and Fredrikstad, Danish clubs like Kopenhagen and OB and Belgian clubs like Anderlecht, Club Brugge and Standard. Who else? Tampere from Finland?
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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old October 15th, 2009, 00:00
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I hope this is not going to happen and that has nothing to do with nationalism. Portugal would gain nothing from joining something like this and the recent experience of the Scandinavian Royal League (including the top teams from Sweden, Denmark and Norway) which was a complete failure, is a good example of what could happen if this sort of thing goes ahead.

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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old October 15th, 2009, 00:16
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Originally Posted by Stygmata View Post
Well it's clear the Eredivisie is getting further and further behind the big 3 leagues so something must be done. I suppose we'd see Ajax, Feyenoord, PSV, Rangers, Celtic, Swedish clubs like Kalmar, Elfsborg and Göteborg, Norwegian clubs like Stabaek, Rosenborg and Fredrikstad, Danish clubs like Kopenhagen and OB and Belgian clubs like Anderlecht, Club Brugge and Standard. Who else? Tampere from Finland?
I don't know, which leagues are meant to enter in this competition?

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I hope this is not going to happen and that has nothing to do with nationalism. Portugal would gain nothing from joining something like this and the recent experience of the Scandinavian Royal League (including the top teams from Sweden, Denmark and Norway) which was a complete failure, is a good example of what could happen if this sort of thing goes ahead.
But did this Royal League excluded their local leagues? Did they give them any right to fight for a place in the CL and EL?

That's the whole point, I think. The creation of this big league should mean the end of the local ones, if not, it wouldn't make any sense.

Portugal would gain nothing? Well, a bigger competition between the teams, higher audiences, more money to keep your players,... The problem of Portugal is that your culture doesn't have much to do with the Northern ones and these other leagues are a bit too far. If Portugal had to join someone, the only natural union would be with Spain. The problem is that the differences are too big already. Well, Porto, Benfica and Sporting would be competitive, but the rest would suffer too much, I think. The economic difference between the 2 leagues is huge, except for the big teams.

On the other hand, some Northern leagues have more things in common.

Why do I support this? Because there was a time when Barcelona had to face Ajax, Feyenoord, Celtic, Rangers, Anderlecht and some others and these games were huge. Nowadays, these teams would probably be mid-table teams in La Liga. Ajax was a giant of Europe and, personally, I don't see the way to see this happening again unless there's a major change.

The day I saw Sevilla trashing Rangers I thought there was something wrong.
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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old October 15th, 2009, 10:02
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But did this Royal League excluded their local leagues? Did they give them any right to fight for a place in the CL and EL?

That's the whole point, I think. The creation of this big league should mean the end of the local ones, if not, it wouldn't make any sense.
No, this was a tournament played between the top 4 teams of each of these countries and it had no access to UEFA's cups. There was money involved though but not even that brought any kind of interest to it.

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Portugal would gain nothing? Well, a bigger competition between the teams, higher audiences, more money to keep your players,... The problem of Portugal is that your culture doesn't have much to do with the Northern ones and these other leagues are a bit too far. If Portugal had to join someone, the only natural union would be with Spain. The problem is that the differences are too big already. Well, Porto, Benfica and Sporting would be competitive, but the rest would suffer too much, I think. The economic difference between the 2 leagues is huge, except for the big teams.
Yes, it is obvious that we would never be interested to have a joint league with countries like Scotland, Holland or Belgium and it's not just about cultural differences. Spain would be more obvious but all in all I simply do not see in what way this could improve the quality of our football or improve the financial state of our clubs. On the contrary, as it would help the big 3 but it would carve an even bigger gap between them and the rest.

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Why do I support this? Because there was a time when Barcelona had to face Ajax, Feyenoord, Celtic, Rangers, Anderlecht and some others and these games were huge. Nowadays, these teams would probably be mid-table teams in La Liga. Ajax was a giant of Europe and, personally, I don't see the way to see this happening again unless there's a major change.

The day I saw Sevilla trashing Rangers I thought there was something wrong.
But seriously, do you really think that this type of league would end the complete domination of that dozen of clubs that have been getting richer and richer with CL money in the last 10-15 years? Of course that there is a need to change dramatically the current state of things but change must be done inside the current tournaments and not abolishing national leagues and creating artificial regions. Regionalism is not better than Nationalism.

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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old October 15th, 2009, 10:14
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I don't know, which leagues are meant to enter in this competition?
Belgian, Dutch, Portuguese, Scandinavian and Scottish teams. So the list would look something like this:

Ajax, Feyenoord, PSV, Rangers, Celtic, Kalmar, Elfsborg, Göteborg, Stabaek, Rosenborg, Fredrikstad, Kopenhagen, OB, Anderlecht, Club Brugge Standard, Tampere, Sporting, Porto and Benfica.

20 teams is more than enough imo. There should also be promotion/relegation options. Relegation means going back to your native league. That spot won't automatically be claimed by another club from your country though, there should be promotion/relegation play offs between the various countries.

There's 1 problem though: who would go to the CL and European football? Because if you miss out on European football (and that chance is a lot bigger in this league) you're going to miss a lot of money.
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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old October 15th, 2009, 10:44
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I can't see what a Tampere or OB would have to offer over an FC Twente or FC Utrecht.

As for joint national leagues, they have that in rugby. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_...rugby_union%29

As for my opinion, I wouldn't mind having a Benelux league. In fact I think it'd be pretty interesting.

Adding Scotland would just about do (although I can't see Old Firm fans getting excited) but what would Brondby or AIK Solna capture a Dutch person's imagination? no. You only had to see how empty de Kuip was when we played Kalmar


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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old October 16th, 2009, 18:51
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It's going to happen one way or the other, both the Rangers and Celtic Chairmen have said so! Where we go is either the EPL or a Euro league of some sort!

Whether Rangers and Celtic go to the EPL will be decided at the end of the month when the EPL have a meeting about a two tier EPL with two divisions of 18 with Rangers and Celtic starting in the second tier. The difference with past discussions is that this meeting is being brokered by one of the EPL's smaller club chairmen(the chairman of Bolton).

I do not see Rangers playing in England and nor do I want them too. But the situation cannot continue, for winning the SPL last season we got about 2.6 million pounds, for getting relegated from the EPL you get 30 million. We cannot even compete with League 1 teams for transfers and wages, twenty years ago we could attract players from just about anywhere.:frustrat:

I assume it is the same for other like minded clubs! Big clubs in small countries?
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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old October 16th, 2009, 19:03
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I don't like this idea one bit and I don't think the Swedish clubs do either for that matter. They're not financially strong to get into the group stages of Champions League every season because they always end up losing their keyplayers. There isn't a single team who dominates the league like in Scotland, as a matter of fact, we've had like 6-7 teams who's won Allsvenskan over the last decade and it goes on to show how little they can do to keep their best players. What will they do once IFK, Kalmar and Elfsborg start getting weaker, throw in the teams who's better in Sweden? This is wrong in my oppinion.

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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old October 16th, 2009, 19:09
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You only had to see how empty de Kuip was when we played Kalmar
..and you guys let them win :thmbdown:

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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old October 16th, 2009, 19:11
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See your point!

Think though Rangers and Celtic have a responsibility to Scottish football also? Not sure what would happen to it!

Would it turn into the Welsh or N Irish league(a non-entity). Or would it become more competitive. I think the later as for example when Hibernian got relegated they filled there ground every week as people like to go and see a winning team.

The difference with Scotland though is that Rangers and Celtic are huge the rest are not?
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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old October 17th, 2009, 02:25
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Why do I support this? Because there was a time when Barcelona had to face Ajax, Feyenoord, Celtic, Rangers, Anderlecht and some others and these games were huge. Nowadays, these teams would probably be mid-table teams in La Liga. Ajax was a giant of Europe and, personally, I don't see the way to see this happening again unless there's a major change.
Anderlecht would end last in the Primera Division. Without a doubt. The difference is basic skills is huge. We showed that the last few years against the ones like Getafe & Betis. Not to talk about our games against Real & Valencia.

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There's 1 problem though: who would go to the CL and European football? Because if you miss out on European football (and that chance is a lot bigger in this league) you're going to miss a lot of money.
Spot on. What's the sense of such a Atlantic League. Do you really think the TV money will be as huge as in England ? Or even Germany or France ? Which TV channel is going to pay only €5 million for the TV rights of 3 native clubs ? It has more disadvantages than advantages. And then I even want to exclude the fact that you kill away-support by forming such a league.

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As for my opinion, I wouldn't mind having a Benelux league. In fact I think it'd be pretty interesting.
Even that would kill the away-support imo. Anyhow, which Belgian teams would be an addition to the Eredivisie you think ? Nowadays then, not because of their name and history. I guess Ajax and AZ already showed the difference is class a few weeks ago.

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I don't like this idea one bit
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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old October 17th, 2009, 12:16
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No, this was a tournament played between the top 4 teams of each of these countries and it had no access to UEFA's cups. There was money involved though but not even that brought any kind of interest to it.
If this is not a real competition, then it's normal that it can not attract any interest.

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Yes, it is obvious that we would never be interested to have a joint league with countries like Scotland, Holland or Belgium and it's not just about cultural differences. Spain would be more obvious but all in all I simply do not see in what way this could improve the quality of our football or improve the financial state of our clubs. On the contrary, as it would help the big 3 but it would carve an even bigger gap between them and the rest.
I also think it's quite unrealistic at this point. Besides, knowing the LFP, I guess there would be some resistance to do it inside Spain, because the big clubs wouldn't see the advantage of it and the smaller clubs wouldn't want to be replaced. I can't see it happening.

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But seriously, do you really think that this type of league would end the complete domination of that dozen of clubs that have been getting richer and richer with CL money in the last 10-15 years? Of course that there is a need to change dramatically the current state of things but change must be done inside the current tournaments and not abolishing national leagues and creating artificial regions. Regionalism is not better than Nationalism.
The money of the CL is not the main difference. The money of the CL is good, but the big difference is what the big clubs get from TV deals (they don't involve CL games, because these rights belong to UEFA) and marketing. In that sense, the CL money is a small percentage of the incomes of Barcleona compared to the other 2.

It's all about the market you have, the thing is that EPL, and in a different level, Serie A, Liga and Bundesliga, have a broad market compared to Scotland, the Netherlands, Belgium or Portugal. Even if it's just a thing of internal population. Well, it's evident that the big leagues also attract people from other countries, crossing borders, while your leagues have a more local character, although I can see all your leagues in Spain too.

IMO, a union of smaller leagues would increase the audience and would attract more money from TV.

You say that a change is needed and I'm not against it, but I don't see a real solution. As I already told you, even if the CL money disappears (for everyone), Barcelona would still attract big incomes, because the European money is not relevant at all.

As an example, look at the Memory of FC Barcelona in 2007-2008 (page 156 and more, sorry in Spanish):

http://www.fcbarcelona.com/web/downl..._barca_cas.pdf

As you can see, the incomes of Barcelona were 384.8M € and this is the distribution. And you can see, marketing (mainly deal with Nike), ticket sales in the stadium, and media (TV deal with Mediapro) are the core of the incomes. If you see the budget for this season, you can see that the weight of marketing decrease due to the international crisis and the fall of consumption, but we get 20M in "others" (which includes the CL money after the victory of the previous season), although this is not a recurrent income as you can guess. Yes, we get a lot of money from CL, but the impact of it is now high compared to other sources.

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Belgian, Dutch, Portuguese, Scandinavian and Scottish teams. So the list would look something like this:

Ajax, Feyenoord, PSV, Rangers, Celtic, Kalmar, Elfsborg, Göteborg, Stabaek, Rosenborg, Fredrikstad, Kopenhagen, OB, Anderlecht, Club Brugge Standard, Tampere, Sporting, Porto and Benfica.

20 teams is more than enough imo. There should also be promotion/relegation options. Relegation means going back to your native league. That spot won't automatically be claimed by another club from your country though, there should be promotion/relegation play offs between the various countries.

There's 1 problem though: who would go to the CL and European football? Because if you miss out on European football (and that chance is a lot bigger in this league) you're going to miss a lot of money.
As I already said, I think the money of the CL is important for clubs like yours. On the other hand, I think your incomes via other sources like media and marketing should increase.

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Spot on. What's the sense of such a Atlantic League. Do you really think the TV money will be as huge as in England ? Or even Germany or France ? Which TV channel is going to pay only €5 million for the TV rights of 3 native clubs ? It has more disadvantages than advantages. And then I even want to exclude the fact that you kill away-support by forming such a league.
The TV channels depend on audiences. Belgium have a population of 11M, I think. Now increase the population of your country adding the other countries' populations. The potential audience increase and it's likely to have a pool of TV channels to get the rights. The sponsors of your league have a smaller potential market, if you compare this to the exposure of a brand in Belgium, Scotland, Netherlands, Scandinavia and Portugal. All these leagues tend to be polarized between big teams that do not have a big internal competition.

It would require time, but it would succeed, I think.

There are other options as the Superleague the G-14 wanted, but it's unlikely too. And then we have the current situation.

At the end, I'm sick to see this historical clubs of Europe suffering to do well in Europe. It's England, Spain, Italy and a bit of France and Germany. Yes, we have Porto around and maybe another one... but the gap is increasing. The current situation take the leagues of your contries to hell when it comes to compete in Europe and I don't like this, because I have a huge respect for them. As I said, I grew up with my team facing your teams and they were fantastic games. If 15 years ago, you had told me that facing Ajax would be like winning the lottery, I would think you'd be crazy.

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Even that would kill the away-support imo. Anyhow, which Belgian teams would be an addition to the Eredivisie you think ? Nowadays then, not because of their name and history. I guess Ajax and AZ already showed the difference is class a few weeks ago.
The goal should be to do something to retain your home talent. None of your leagues are able to keep your good players, which is a shame and probably frustating. Of course, I like to see the best ones in Spain, but when I think about it, I don't think this is good for football. EPL and Liga are becoming like NBAs and the rest are disappearing and this is very sad.

The away support? Well, distance punish the away support, but it's all about to see what's the best for everyone.
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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old October 17th, 2009, 13:27
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IMO, a union of smaller leagues would increase the audience and would attract more money from TV.
Classic error in thinking. The simple fact is: national leagues attract a national audience because it's a national (read: nationwide) affair. If this stupid Atlantic thing is gonna go through and AZ aren't in it: I'm not watching. What do I care? Nor will people from the North watch it if Heerenveen and Groningen aren't in it.

I suspect television audiences might actually be smaller for this kind of league than for the Dutch national league. Maybe that wouldn't be the case for Norway which has a tiny population. But Holland and Portugal stand to gain absolutely nothing from this.
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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old October 17th, 2009, 14:54
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The money of the CL is not the main difference. The money of the CL is good, but the big difference is what the big clubs get from TV deals (they don't involve CL games, because these rights belong to UEFA) and marketing. In that sense, the CL money is a small percentage of the incomes of Barcleona compared to the other 2.

It's all about the market you have, the thing is that EPL, and in a different level, Serie A, Liga and Bundesliga, have a broad market compared to Scotland, the Netherlands, Belgium or Portugal. Even if it's just a thing of internal population. Well, it's evident that the big leagues also attract people from other countries, crossing borders, while your leagues have a more local character, although I can see all your leagues in Spain too.

IMO, a union of smaller leagues would increase the audience and would attract more money from TV.

You say that a change is needed and I'm not against it, but I don't see a real solution. As I already told you, even if the CL money disappears (for everyone), Barcelona would still attract big incomes, because the European money is not relevant at all.
This may all be true for Barça and the "superpower" clubs of European football - the top 2-4 clubs in Spain and England and 1-2 in Italy, but as soon as you go down that first tier, CL money is indeed absolutely crucial to give those 2nd tier clubs an edge over their immediate competition.

For example, I see it happening in Portugal where Porto has been gaining an immense advantage in the last 10-15 years mainly through the European money they have been getting over the other big clubs in Portugal. TV rights in Portugal are residual so that is really where their edge comes from (well...that and the fact that they cheat for a living). I am sure this same situation can be found in other countries and leagues of a similar size and importance in Europe.

All in all, UEFA's strategy is planned to get the rich richer and the poor poorer. I find that wrong and unfair and this is what really is destroying our leagues.

A combination of the top teams of all these leagues would NOT attract more people towards them because people in Portugal couldn't care less if we win against the likes of Celtic, Ajax or Anderlecht, let alone the Scandinavian teams.

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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old October 17th, 2009, 15:13
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Even that would kill the away-support imo. Anyhow, which Belgian teams would be an addition to the Eredivisie you think ? Nowadays then, not because of their name and history. I guess Ajax and AZ already showed the difference is class a few weeks ago.
They still failed to win though and with the tougher competition, Belgian clubs would be forced to take innovative steps when it comes to transfers. No longer will getting Dmitri Bulykin from Leverkusen amateurs be an adequate transfer (by the manager at least) but real scouting and networking will be needed or have you lost all hope in your organization ?

Standard, Racing Genk, Anderlecht and Club Brugge would all be additions. They'd at least be a challenge for Feyenoord

That said I'm sure the bubble will burst some time in the premiership and la liga. Surely oil sheikhs coming out of nowhere will continue funding clubs (and making losses) with highly artificial sums of money for like the next 50 years? You only have to look at the downfall of Serie A clubs who in the 80s and early 90s when nearly all had rich businessmen willing to pay the best wages around. Now they doesn't seem to be the case with the fall of Parmalat and the Del Monte guy who funded Lazio.


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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old October 17th, 2009, 21:48
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I hope it doesn't go ahead. What's the point of throwing away years of history, because the league at the moment isn't doing so great? Eredivisie is still better to watch than Greek league or even Turkish sometimes. May as well scrap national leagues and have a whole world league, that way Boca can be away to Ankaragucu on a Wednesday.

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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old October 18th, 2009, 04:51
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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old October 18th, 2009, 21:50
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i GUESS THAT NOBODY IS INTERSTED IN AN ATLANTIC LEAGUE, well back to see the Gers in Europe against some diddy team from romania for Ł45.00 money well spent????????????? Not!


And we will probably lose???
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