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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old July 28th, 2009, 19:01 Thread Starter
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how israel can just be better

I was watching the 2nd half of b. yehuda match and realized the flaw of israeli players and its very simple. Its called pass and move...they don't do it and its the fault of the player, to the coach, to the staff, and the rest of our football culture. I observe the average israeli player and see some amazing skill and pace, but alwyas one too many touches. With pass and move technique the players will develope better pace of the game in general (it will just move faster), and most importantly better fitness. Lets face it, the discipline of israeli players just isn't the same of that of a english player. Ok, its two very different kinds of football and i'm not asking for the israeli player to be more physical because thats just not us (although it gets quiet physical) but there needs to be more pass and move. No problem, throw in your one or two nice moves and get it away before you go for that extra third move which will get you on the ground looking at the opposition running away with the ball while you pretend to be injured. There needs to be more discpline, israeli players need to man up and play tougher, and faster. I believe that at a professional level most players have an ability to shoot accurately, and pass well..i mean this is basic, but what splits chelsea from b. yehuda is the pace of the match, and the ability to hold on to these basics while moving at an extreme pace, and thats what we need to develope, a quick form of play, with pass and move technique while still holdinig on to our individual players' skill in dribbling and speed
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old July 28th, 2009, 22:48
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Yeah i mentioned this issue in a Greece vs Israel thread while complaining on the team Kashtan field up. On that opportunity i said that Israel had to use its qualities better. Physically we werenīt stronger, on set pieces either, but we had overall more technique and more speed. So especially at home we should field a lineup that suits our players skills and we could take advantage of that.
Instead we field a defensive lineup in which we will without a doubt suffer pressure and a lot of physical contact, this will surely favor teams like Greece or Scandinavians etc....
When Ben Sahar played in Ramat Gan he made the difference with a wonderful goal, a wonderful display and a wonderful pass to Itahaki that could have finished off the 2-1 that maybe would have meant the 1st place in the group.
So to try to sum up my theory, you need to display your tactics based on the players you have and not play a tactic and adapt your players to them.
Imagine using a 4-5-1 system, but Benayoun to much worried in going back and defend, obviously he wonīt be the same Benayoun we expect.
And IMO, despite all the critics on Grant he was the NT coach who knew how to use Benayoun the best and no coincidence our "golden boy" had his best period in the NT on the Grant era.
On that time we played with three central defenders, five in midfield being two defensive ones (Idan Tal and Badir) with speedy wingers with attacking mentality (especially Omri Afek) and Benayoun in a free role to move around midfield. If we had a bit more attacking efficiency we would have qualified for the WC.

Trying not to extend myself. The mentality issue is the most important one. We have many talented players that could reach big clubs and could form a good NT, but the lack of discipline and like Yarok said, more movement and pace makes all the gap and difference for Israel to reach a step further in European scenario.
If we could only improve this since tender age we could have a good future ahead of us.
If we see Ben Sahar and Guy Asulin and of course Benayoun all have this sense because from teenagers they played abroad in clubs like Chelasea, Barcelona and Ajax.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old July 28th, 2009, 23:43 Thread Starter
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this is actually a good point when regarding our national team, managers of the NT need to have the tactics fit the players not the players adapt to new tactics. Israeli players have their own way of playing, aside from guys like ben-haim, ben sahar, and a few defenders our physical strength is just not up to par with other countries like the greeks or scandinavians, we have to play a game which fully uses our advatages of speed and not try to push our limits on resources with don't have such as physical strength.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old July 29th, 2009, 03:25
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Israel had a golden period in late 90`s with a very technical team that was on the verge of qualifying for the Euro 2000.
The team had Haim Revivo, Eyal Berkovic, Avi Nimni, Alon Mizrahi, Yossi Abuksis, Yossi Benayoun in the bench for a second half turnaround and in Tal Banin the player to defend for all of them a type of "an Israeli Gattuso". This team had wonderful play and good passing. There were two reasons we failed: Firstly, Denmark was competent and strong. Secondly, our mentality. We simply werenīt psycologically ready for such big pressure and didnīt get ready for the match the right way.
But only analysing tactical and quality play, we had a very good NT that many believed that could qualify and maybe that is why the failure at that time was considered big. Sharf knew how to adapt a good system for the players he had available.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old July 29th, 2009, 04:16
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excellent observation, Israeli football simply hasn't realized that I think, look at a team like Barca, when they play like they do, they are virtually unbeatable, like yarok said, B. yehuda have good players that are fast and skilled, but their football IQ is low when it comes to playing the ball into space and one touch football, hopefully this is being taught to the new generation in Israel's football academies.
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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old August 2nd, 2009, 05:35
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Israel has many talented youth players and the NT is a prove of that. All these years we have seen great results from youth teams in top Europeans competitions.
The problemas comes to mentality as we have been debating this time after time. More professionalism from players, more teamwork drills,we could see since young age we have some players who have real strong personality and very low teamwork rate, like for example Reuven Oved. And then many question themselves why that player didnīt succeed in Europe.
IMO the armiy servic also contributes to harm a bit the career. From 18 - 21 is the age that the players develop themselves the most in terms of tactics, experience, skills etc...If we get Sahar and Asulin for example who since young age practiced in Chelsea and Barcelona respectively we could see they are different, they have other vision and their skills and game vision better developed. Benayoun is a rare case, he is a real talent. He played some months for Ajax, but his youth career was mainly in Israel.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old August 2nd, 2009, 06:15 Thread Starter
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i think that if it weren't for army service (and also the fact that benayoun actually wanted to leave ajax because he was homesick) we would see benayoun at liverpool at a much earlier age than 29, the army service certainly slows down the average israeli's progress in key years
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old August 2nd, 2009, 18:26
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Israel to get better lots of things need to change...here i'll say wich ones on my opinion...

1) realice wich playing style fits better the israeli player...and we all agree here that is playing with tons of passes, kinda like barca style

2) managers need to realice that we cant play counter attack or bunker style, cause are players are smaller but much faster than other european teams, so managers need to learn to play with our qualities and not doing what they want

3) the mentality of the player needs to get shaped from a young age, thay have to realice that this is their job and they need to give their best, that they cant party like a rockstar and be on one.co.il on the fashion scene pictures everyday...

4) training facilities need to get upgraded...in ALL THE CATEGORIES, from the ligat al teams all to way to the youngters divisions...

5) every profesional team must have young categories from the under-20 to under-10

6) there must be a law (like we have in venezuela from 2 yrs ago) that in games an under-20 player must be on field playing all the time, its time to give the yeledim a chance to play

7) the stadiums need to be upgraded, players and fans need to have some quality areas, how they want people going to the games if most stadiums look like crap and dont have bathrooms, the chairs look like they have aids and shet...modernization or build new stadiums

8) the league needs to look more profesional, the uniforms need to get an standard type of number like in the EPL, 1 main principal sponsor on the front of the shirt, the player name on the back and the logo of the liga on the right side of the sleeve and not in the chest...it just so cheap the ligat al logo on the chest
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old August 2nd, 2009, 18:37
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Originally Posted by Schnorrer View Post
Israel to get better lots of things need to change...here i'll say wich ones on my opinion...

1) realice wich playing style fits better the israeli player...and we all agree here that is playing with tons of passes, kinda like barca style

2) managers need to realice that we cant play counter attack or bunker style, cause are players are smaller but much faster than other european teams, so managers need to learn to play with our qualities and not doing what they want

3) the mentality of the player needs to get shaped from a young age, thay have to realice that this is their job and they need to give their best, that they cant party like a rockstar and be on one.co.il on the fashion scene pictures everyday...

4) training facilities need to get upgraded...in ALL THE CATEGORIES, from the ligat al teams all to way to the youngters divisions...

5) every profesional team must have young categories from the under-20 to under-10

6) there must be a law (like we have in venezuela from 2 yrs ago) that in games an under-20 player must be on field playing all the time, its time to give the yeledim a chance to play

7) the stadiums need to be upgraded, players and fans need to have some quality areas, how they want people going to the games if most stadiums look like crap and dont have bathrooms, the chairs look like they have aids and shet...modernization or build new stadiums

8) the league needs to look more profesional, the uniforms need to get an standard type of number like in the EPL, 1 main principal sponsor on the front of the shirt, the player name on the back and the logo of the liga on the right side of the sleeve and not in the chest...it just so cheap the ligat al logo on the chest

Yes intresting points you have described. Some of them as we posted previously we all agree, like the tactics, mentality etc....

I believe Israel is improving overall in developing players eventhough in a slow manner.
Regarding renewal of stadiums this is definitely something we need. And projects are already underway and cleared to begin like in Haifa and Beer Sheva for example. Bloomfield recently got a few modernizations (even though we could still not say it is brand new). Teddy IMO continues to be the prettiest stadium in Israel with the best home crowd atmoshere because of its acoustics, the sound of the fans seems to be kept on the field.
Regarding youth facilities, i agree teams should develop them more, without a doubt. Not only this, we need more qualified professionals. This is important. Sometimes a former player coaches the kids, but he doesnīt have the necessary comprehension on how to pass his knowledge to youngsters, or he is not the example to be followed etc....

Regarding the example you gave from Venezuela of fielding one U-20 player on the field, it is a good idea. Avi Luzon despite all critics is trying to make some changes to give more chances for Israeli players to develop and the fact he increased the league to 16 teams and trying to reduce the number of foreigners from 5 to 4 per team, is prove of this attempt.
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old August 2nd, 2009, 18:40
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Originally Posted by ירוק OLE! View Post
i think that if it weren't for army service (and also the fact that benayoun actually wanted to leave ajax because he was homesick) we would see benayoun at liverpool at a much earlier age than 29, the army service certainly slows down the average israeli's progress in key years
Well, if we think he was only 15 years old and from a small city like Dimona and from his personality, a very good hearted person and used to be together with his family it completey normal his reaction in a big city like Amsterdam in a club like Ajax with a lot of pressure.

But i like this. Players that play with their hearts and soul and have identification with his team and pride to play for their country is getting each day scarce.
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old August 3rd, 2009, 00:58
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Well we definitely, have some good players coming up, Gil Blumstein is impressing with Rangers, he might get a contract from them, Nes Zamir plays for Getafe youth, Ben Sahar scored two goals today in thirty minutes and could have had a hat-trick. Gai Assulin might get promoted to the first team in Barca this season as well. Nir Mansour plays for Real Madrid.

Israel needs to do a better job of developing defenders, Keinan and Ben-Haim aren't that good, and Klemi Saban, Yoav Ziv, and Ben-Dayan are all mediocre.

I agree we need to develop a style similar to the spanish game. we have fast, average to small sized players and they need a style that suits them.

but, Israel has so many other problems they have to worry about, I think they've done a good job developing players considering how little money there is to invest in sports and other such things.
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old August 4th, 2009, 00:13
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Well we definitely, have some good players coming up, Gil Blumstein is impressing with Rangers, he might get a contract from them, Nes Zamir plays for Getafe youth, Ben Sahar scored two goals today in thirty minutes and could have had a hat-trick. Gai Assulin might get promoted to the first team in Barca this season as well. Nir Mansour plays for Real Madrid.

Israel needs to do a better job of developing defenders, Keinan and Ben-Haim aren't that good, and Klemi Saban, Yoav Ziv, and Ben-Dayan are all mediocre.

I agree we need to develop a style similar to the spanish game. we have fast, average to small sized players and they need a style that suits them.

but, Israel has so many other problems they have to worry about, I think they've done a good job developing players considering how little money there is to invest in sports and other such things.
The truth is we have potential for good defenders but the problem is related with one of the key factors of a good defenderositioning. A clear example of that is Italian Fabio Cannavaro. He isnīt tall for a defender, but his sense of postioning and vision to anticipate the forward is astonishing. (ok now he is not in his prime, but during all his career he was excellent). Since tacticly we still need to improve, this affects a lot our defenders.
Our main problem IMO is not their quality, but the defensive system as a whole. Many players think that defense is only for defenders, sidebacks and defensive midfielders, but if we observe the winning teams have their stirkers also participating in closing down the opponent.
In Israeli league it is rare to see these players with this will and conscious. Therefore the defenders end up facing an even tougher task at the back.
Postioning in set pieces is a chronic problem with our teams. Many defenders since young age arenīt properly taught to mark his man, but instead they follow the ball and after it, this means that the man he is marking could more easily be free to head the ball in.
Also the fact that we usually donīt have tall center forwards, our defenders arenīt used to have during all the game aerial balls against, or the proper experience of marking big men upfront. We donīt have for example the style of Luca Toni, Jan Koller, Peter Crouch, Christian Vieri, Angelos Charisteas and so on.
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