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post #1 of 82 (permalink) Old May 29th, 2009, 21:04 Thread Starter
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Good Jewish footballing article

http://fourfourtwo.com/blogs/champio...-football.aspx

really good read. Enjoy!
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post #2 of 82 (permalink) Old May 30th, 2009, 15:44
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good read although they missed some important points. Guttmann Béla the great one was of course hungarian not austrian. he was the man who created the style of Hungary's NT in the 1950s. then he went to Sao Paulo and introduced hungarian style to Brasil which lead them to world cup title in 1958 and dominance ever since.

also, no mention of MTK Budapest the jewish club (and Guttmann's original club too) who was arguably one of the best football clubs in Europe in the 1920s. they won like 9 championship titles in a row back then and made europe tourneys and beat the hell out of most foreign teams. and many of their players and coaches went out to abroad to dominate the respective championships there with them clubs. Nürnberg won german championship like 5 times in those days with former MTK players and coach (mighty jewish-hungarian György Orth). I think also Barcelona had some jewish-hungarian players back then.


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post #3 of 82 (permalink) Old May 30th, 2009, 15:48
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post #4 of 82 (permalink) Old June 1st, 2009, 00:49
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Yes, MTK has a jewish history and especially in its foundations. My doubt is, were the first members jews or they were a club who accepted jews? Or like Tottenham they were located in the jewish neighborhood?

What about in the current days, when MTK plays against other teams do they receive any type of antisemitic chant? Because i remember reading some time ago that when they played Ferencvaros their ultra fans made some anti-semitic chants towards MTK. How do the fans receive it, i mean do they admit having this jewish root like Ajax for example?

I remember Gabor Halmai who played some years in Hapoel Tel Aviv and the Hungarian NT played for MTK some years ago.
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post #5 of 82 (permalink) Old June 1st, 2009, 05:26
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Yes, MTK has a jewish history and especially in its foundations. My doubt is, were the first members jews or they were a club who accepted jews? Or like Tottenham they were located in the jewish neighborhood?

What about in the current days, when MTK plays against other teams do they receive any type of antisemitic chant? Because i remember reading some time ago that when they played Ferencvaros their ultra fans made some anti-semitic chants towards MTK. How do the fans receive it, i mean do they admit having this jewish root like Ajax for example?

I remember Gabor Halmai who played some years in Hapoel Tel Aviv and the Hungarian NT played for MTK some years ago.
first members were jewish. it was founded in 1888 and it was more of an upper-class / bourgeosie sports club and most of the bourgeosie were jewish back then. working class would join Ferencváros or Újpest in the outskirt districts.

it's not only when we play against Ferencváros - although here it's the worst - but basically against any team that there is anti-semitic chants.

thats also one of the reasons few fans go to the games anyway. father of my girlfriendf f.ex used to be a big MTK fan but doesn't go now for ages because he doesn't want to pay money to racially being abused by some stupid hooligans.

also, MTK unlike the other Budapest clubs doesn't represent a district or geograhical area but more something abstract like the bourgeosie and there is no such thing in Hungary. those nouveau-riches we have, you can't call them that.

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post #6 of 82 (permalink) Old June 4th, 2009, 23:42
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first members were jewish. it was founded in 1888 and it was more of an upper-class / bourgeosie sports club and most of the bourgeosie were jewish back then. working class would join Ferencváros or Újpest in the outskirt districts.

it's not only when we play against Ferencváros - although here it's the worst - but basically against any team that there is anti-semitic chants.

thats also one of the reasons few fans go to the games anyway. father of my girlfriendf f.ex used to be a big MTK fan but doesn't go now for ages because he doesn't want to pay money to racially being abused by some stupid hooligans.

also, MTK unlike the other Budapest clubs doesn't represent a district or geograhical area but more something abstract like the bourgeosie and there is no such thing in Hungary. those nouveau-riches we have, you can't call them that.
Intresting information.

Yeah heard Ferencvaros fans used to give some terrible chants like "Auschwitz is back", "death to jews" and stuff like that. And if you say your future father in law stopped attending matches because of the harsh words it means they were really bad ones. But despite not many fans attend to the games it is one of the best teams in Hungary and has a good structure.

I am curious to know if the MTK fans end up absorbing this "jewish" identity and call themselves "jews" like Ajax and Tottenham fans do. What about you? Do you frequently go to the stadium?
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post #7 of 82 (permalink) Old June 5th, 2009, 07:12
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Intresting information.

Yeah heard Ferencvaros fans used to give some terrible chants like "Auschwitz is back", "death to jews" and stuff like that. And if you say your future father in law stopped attending matches because of the harsh words it means they were really bad ones. But despite not many fans attend to the games it is one of the best teams in Hungary and has a good structure.

I am curious to know if the MTK fans end up absorbing this "jewish" identity and call themselves "jews" like Ajax and Tottenham fans do. What about you? Do you frequently go to the stadium?
although Ferencváros is a shite club and I hate their fans, I have to give them credit for standing up against that racial law in the 1940s that closed down MTK and its grounds.

they have become really shite only after 1989 when the "democracy" came to Hungary.

about the MTK fans, probably not all of them would call themselves jews, only the ones who really are, although I think most of them are though. there seems not be many other reasons to support them I guess.

on the other hand, I know jews who support Ferencváros

I remember MTK fans waved Isreal flags when we won the championship last year. as opposed to fans of many other clubs who usually wave Palestina flags when they play against us.

then, as our club chant back in the 1920s was Ria-Ria-Hungária (because the club was called MTK HUngária) and the supporting chant for the NT has become the same, supporters of most other clubs usually sing this tune to simply provoke us, as if they wanted to tell us they are hungarians and we are not. how ridiculous they are.

as to your last question, since I live in Berlin I can't go too often to our games. but from June I will live half-time here and half in Budapest, so I will go more often. been there only 3 times in the last 2 seasons overall. which is a shame.

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post #8 of 82 (permalink) Old June 6th, 2009, 22:58
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Let's make a distinction though. Ajax fans may use the Star of David logo (Antwerp in Belgium do the same) but they have very few or none Jewish fans nor any ties to the Jewish communities in their cities. I doubt more than 10% of their fans would know anything about Israeli history or politics or even know where Israel is on the map.

Real Jewish clubs are the likes of Makkabi Berlin, Maccabi Antwerp, Hakoah Wien, ... Clubs formed by Jews and for (mainly) Jews and with close ties to the Jewish communities in their cities. Most big European cities with a Jewish community have such a club, Prague and Amsterdam being notable exceptions which is odd because the Jewish community is or at least has been very big there, but there has not been any specifically Jewish club in those cities as far as I am aware.

In my native Belgium, both Antwerp (which has one of the biggest orthodox jewish communities in Europe) and Brussels have a Maccabi sports club. The one in Antwerp even is very old and has a very long history. The one in Brussels is relatively new and more multicultural, with several muslim players and irreligious players as well, while Maccabi Antwerp has been more distinctively Jewish (although they have also accepted a more limited number of non-jews in the team).

Hakoah Wien has been very iconic and I believe their tour of Israel prior to independence has inspired several Israeli clubs (Hakoah Ramat Gan I believe adopted the name and kits of the Hakoah club in Wien ?)



The idea of some City fans with beer belly's flashing their tool is gross I hate this sort of chants where football irony begins to border racism. When Israel played in Ireland in 2005 several Irish fans threw bottles at the Israeli fans, shouted stuff such as "where's your foreskin gone" and even some very painful slogans about the holocaust. Disgusting, and many Irish football fans felt deeply ashamed of what their fellow fans did that night. This sort of behaviour IMO should be sanctioned with stadium bans, racism in stadiums is not acceptable.

And PS: it shows some naive generalisations because (while the vast majority of Jews does have the Brit Mitzva) not every Jew is circumcised. Even Theodore Herzl refused the brit on his son, and this is the man who played a capital role in the formation of the Jewish state. So those chants are both racist and showing ignorant generalisations.
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post #9 of 82 (permalink) Old June 7th, 2009, 03:44
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although Ferencváros is a shite club and I hate their fans, I have to give them credit for standing up against that racial law in the 1940s that closed down MTK and its grounds.

they have become really shite only after 1989 when the "democracy" came to Hungary.

about the MTK fans, probably not all of them would call themselves jews, only the ones who really are, although I think most of them are though. there seems not be many other reasons to support them I guess.

on the other hand, I know jews who support Ferencváros

I remember MTK fans waved Isreal flags when we won the championship last year. as opposed to fans of many other clubs who usually wave Palestina flags when they play against us.

then, as our club chant back in the 1920s was Ria-Ria-Hungária (because the club was called MTK HUngária) and the supporting chant for the NT has become the same, supporters of most other clubs usually sing this tune to simply provoke us, as if they wanted to tell us they are hungarians and we are not. how ridiculous they are.

as to your last question, since I live in Berlin I can't go too often to our games. but from June I will live half-time here and half in Budapest, so I will go more often. been there only 3 times in the last 2 seasons overall. which is a shame.

Wow, it must be odd being jewish and supporting a club while your forefathers are being cursed

Anyways, intresting information regarding the fans waving Israeli flags in the last championship. Strange that in the Israeli media nothing was reported because normally any event that someone supports Israel or the jews is venerated. I guarantee you that Israeli or jewish fans, including myself, that get to know more about these information will support MTK or have at least sympathy to it.

Regarding the opposing fans provocations it is indeed ridiculous since MTK has Magyar on their name and this means Hungary if i am not mistaken right?? In the first half of the century jews were very involved with Hungarian nationalism and felt integrated with the society and recall that many jews participated with Hungary olimpic teams even bringining medals for the country. If i am not mistaken, Bela Gutmann who was a very succesfull coach including spells with Milan, Benfica and Sao Paulo, was Hungarian Jew.

As for the MTK identity, very intresting to know most of their fans are jewish even though officialy is not a jewish club. And i wonder how do the non jewish fans feel this fact. For example are you jewish?

PS: Forgive my many questions, this subject really intrests me:smileani:
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post #10 of 82 (permalink) Old June 7th, 2009, 03:54
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Let's make a distinction though. Ajax fans may use the Star of David logo (Antwerp in Belgium do the same) but they have very few or none Jewish fans nor any ties to the Jewish communities in their cities. I doubt more than 10% of their fans would know anything about Israeli history or politics or even know where Israel is on the map.

Real Jewish clubs are the likes of Makkabi Berlin, Maccabi Antwerp, Hakoah Wien, ... Clubs formed by Jews and for (mainly) Jews and with close ties to the Jewish communities in their cities. Most big European cities with a Jewish community have such a club, Prague and Amsterdam being notable exceptions which is odd because the Jewish community is or at least has been very big there, but there has not been any specifically Jewish club in those cities as far as I am aware.

In my native Belgium, both Antwerp (which has one of the biggest orthodox jewish communities in Europe) and Brussels have a Maccabi sports club. The one in Antwerp even is very old and has a very long history. The one in Brussels is relatively new and more multicultural, with several muslim players and irreligious players as well, while Maccabi Antwerp has been more distinctively Jewish (although they have also accepted a more limited number of non-jews in the team).

Hakoah Wien has been very iconic and I believe their tour of Israel prior to independence has inspired several Israeli clubs (Hakoah Ramat Gan I believe adopted the name and kits of the Hakoah club in Wien ?)



The idea of some City fans with beer belly's flashing their tool is gross I hate this sort of chants where football irony begins to border racism. When Israel played in Ireland in 2005 several Irish fans threw bottles at the Israeli fans, shouted stuff such as "where's your foreskin gone" and even some very painful slogans about the holocaust. Disgusting, and many Irish football fans felt deeply ashamed of what their fellow fans did that night. This sort of behaviour IMO should be sanctioned with stadium bans, racism in stadiums is not acceptable.

And PS: it shows some naive generalisations because (while the vast majority of Jews does have the Brit Mitzva) not every Jew is circumcised. Even Theodore Herzl refused the brit on his son, and this is the man who played a capital role in the formation of the Jewish state. So those chants are both racist and showing ignorant generalisations.
Yes, it is true if we were the give an official approach jewish club would mean the likes of Maccabi Antwerp, Hakoach Wien and so on as you gave the example.
But still the fact that clubs like Ajax and Tottenham have absorbed "jewish identity" is at least curious and a reason for many Israelis and jews in general to have sympathy towrds them. In Israel, Ajax has a really big fanbase especially because of this issue. Many fans know that most of Ajax supporters aren´t jewish, but the fact of bringing stars of David to Amsterdam Arena, the fact of singing "Hava Naguila" song is already enough to conquer the hearts of jewish fans, especially because most of the news regarding us in the general media is normally negative.

Regarding Hakoach Wien, yes the club Hakoach Ramat Gan (who this weekend was relegated to second division BTW) has this name to hnour that remarkable team. They have also the violet jerseys Hakoach Wien used to wear.
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post #11 of 82 (permalink) Old June 8th, 2009, 12:41
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Yes, it is true if we were the give an official approach jewish club would mean the likes of Maccabi Antwerp, Hakoach Wien and so on as you gave the example.
But still the fact that clubs like Ajax and Tottenham have absorbed "jewish identity" is at least curious and a reason for many Israelis and jews in general to have sympathy towrds them. In Israel, Ajax has a really big fanbase especially because of this issue. Many fans know that most of Ajax supporters aren´t jewish, but the fact of bringing stars of David to Amsterdam Arena, the fact of singing "Hava Naguila" song is already enough to conquer the hearts of jewish fans, especially because most of the news regarding us in the general media is normally negative.

Regarding Hakoach Wien, yes the club Hakoach Ramat Gan (who this weekend was relegated to second division BTW) has this name to hnour that remarkable team. They have also the violet jerseys Hakoach Wien used to wear.

But then many Ajax fans couldn't even locate Tel Aviv on a map. Dito with Antwerp who also use the Star of David on banners. It is a tribalist thing of which many of their fans don't even know the origins. Just like now Celtic fans wave Palestinian flags and Rangers fans started waving Israeli flags ; I doubt how many of these people know anything about the Israeli-Palestinian situation.

The clubs that deserve true credit and support are those who are actually set up to help the jewish community, such as Hakoah Wien, Maccabi Antwerp, Makkabi Berlin, ... Those clubs IMO, even when not as succesful, deserve the praise a lot more than some fans waving a star of David without knowing what it really means.

PS Maccabi Antwerp have an absolutely lovely stadium
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post #12 of 82 (permalink) Old June 8th, 2009, 21:23
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Regarding the opposing fans provocations it is indeed ridiculous since MTK has Magyar on their name and this means Hungary if i am not mistaken right?? In the first half of the century jews were very involved with Hungarian nationalism and felt integrated with the society and recall that many jews participated with Hungary olimpic teams even bringining medals for the country. If i am not mistaken, Bela Gutmann who was a very succesfull coach including spells with Milan, Benfica and Sao Paulo, was Hungarian Jew.

As for the MTK identity, very intresting to know most of their fans are jewish even though officialy is not a jewish club. And i wonder how do the non jewish fans feel this fact. For example are you jewish?
MTK has a very deep jewish tradition. pre war I think most of the players were jewish, Béla Gutmann being one of them. fans too of course. nowadays players of course are not jewish, but the president is and fans (at least most of them) still are. although not really those kind who would go to the synagogue. but I hear elder guys telling me it's better to go to MTK matches than to the synagogue, as you can make better business talks there.
but keep in mind Budapest has by far the biggest jewish community in all Central Europe. around 100-200,000 which is 5-10% of the population. numbers vary because it's hard to tell who in fact is jewish, half, quarter or the likes. I for one am one of those 25% guys, but my gf is 100% for example. none of us is member of any religious community though.

and M in MTK means of course Magyar, the entire name would be literally translated as Circle of Hungarian Body Exercisers you can tell that name comes from 1888 when the club was founded.

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post #13 of 82 (permalink) Old June 9th, 2009, 01:16
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MTK has a very deep jewish tradition. pre war I think most of the players were jewish, Béla Gutmann being one of them. fans too of course. nowadays players of course are not jewish, but the president is and fans (at least most of them) still are. although not really those kind who would go to the synagogue. but I hear elder guys telling me it's better to go to MTK matches than to the synagogue, as you can make better business talks there.
but keep in mind Budapest has by far the biggest jewish community in all Central Europe. around 100-200,000 which is 5-10% of the population. numbers vary because it's hard to tell who in fact is jewish, half, quarter or the likes. I for one am one of those 25% guys, but my gf is 100% for example. none of us is member of any religious community though.

and M in MTK means of course Magyar, the entire name would be literally translated as Circle of Hungarian Body Exercisers you can tell that name comes from 1888 when the club was founded.
Nice. I read some while ago an article about MTK and from than on i got intrested in learning more about the club.Do you know any books regarding their history and anything related to them?

Didn´t think that jews had all this number in Hungary!! Considering that many were murdered in WW II difficult to think that the community has about 200,000 members!! Very nice.
So you say you are 25% jewish, meaning that one of your grandparents are jewish right? But do you consider yourself one?

Well of course the name surely represents the date of its foundation:smileani: On that time, body exercizes was the correct name for the club

Do MTK still keep their policy of only having Hungarian players and praising youth team players??
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post #14 of 82 (permalink) Old June 9th, 2009, 01:28
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But then many Ajax fans couldn't even locate Tel Aviv on a map. Dito with Antwerp who also use the Star of David on banners. It is a tribalist thing of which many of their fans don't even know the origins. Just like now Celtic fans wave Palestinian flags and Rangers fans started waving Israeli flags ; I doubt how many of these people know anything about the Israeli-Palestinian situation.

The clubs that deserve true credit and support are those who are actually set up to help the jewish community, such as Hakoah Wien, Maccabi Antwerp, Makkabi Berlin, ... Those clubs IMO, even when not as succesful, deserve the praise a lot more than some fans waving a star of David without knowing what it really means.

PS Maccabi Antwerp have an absolutely lovely stadium

I agree with you that clubs like Hakoach Wien (who won an Austrian league title) Maccabi Antwerp and many others of this style certainly represents better the jewish identity. Certainly this is not in doubt. But i confess that it is a good feeling to see traditional clubs with a big international approach like Ajax, Tottehham, Rangers having a "jewish identity". Of course most of them don´t know anything about Israel and the conflict or even jews, but the fact they wave Israeli flags in their games and they end up supporting us somehow is already touching IMO.
We always get beaten by the media, always negative stuff and when clubs with such history "support" us it is good for our image.
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post #15 of 82 (permalink) Old June 9th, 2009, 08:04
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Nice. I read some while ago an article about MTK and from than on i got intrested in learning more about the club.Do you know any books regarding their history and anything related to them?

Didn´t think that jews had all this number in Hungary!! Considering that many were murdered in WW II difficult to think that the community has about 200,000 members!! Very nice.
So you say you are 25% jewish, meaning that one of your grandparents are jewish right? But do you consider yourself one?

Well of course the name surely represents the date of its foundation:smileani: On that time, body exercizes was the correct name for the club

Do MTK still keep their policy of only having Hungarian players and praising youth team players??
we had 2 or so foreign players all over the last years but they leave now well one of them is 38 now and he has done his job. our policy is more like not signing any players except it is a major bargain but basically all the players come from our own academy. thats why we have a very young average age of players. also, the club don't have money to buy anyways, remember we have average attendances of around 1,000 (one thosand)

I have a nice book about the history, it came out to the 120th birthday last year but it is in Hungarian as you can guess. "Az MTK százhúsz éve" by Hencsei Pál. not only about football but all the other sports we were great at and providing many olympic winners and world champions. fencing, wrestling, boxing, kayak, table tennis, judo etc

about the murdering, well there was a very big community also before the war, about 700-800,000 in Hungary and the murdering began relatively late here, only in summer 1944 after Germany technically occupied us and installed that puppet regime. so thats why there were more survivors here compared to other countries.

as for me and my "25%" well it's from my grandmother whose name was Kohn although that was not the hungarian side of my family but the austrian one. nonetheless, I consider myself a Danubian () who supports Hungary and MTK and has some jewish background.

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post #16 of 82 (permalink) Old June 9th, 2009, 14:15
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I agree with you that clubs like Hakoach Wien (who won an Austrian league title) Maccabi Antwerp and many others of this style certainly represents better the jewish identity. Certainly this is not in doubt. But i confess that it is a good feeling to see traditional clubs with a big international approach like Ajax, Tottehham, Rangers having a "jewish identity". Of course most of them don´t know anything about Israel and the conflict or even jews, but the fact they wave Israeli flags in their games and they end up supporting us somehow is already touching IMO.
We always get beaten by the media, always negative stuff and when clubs with such history "support" us it is good for our image.
Rangers knows NOTHING about Israel or the conflict, and neither does Celtic (or at least, the majority of those waving flags). Those two clubs are so political they should become parties rather than sports clubs. Celtic fans waving the Palestine flag affiliate with Palestine because they consider Northern Ireland occupied territory like they consider Palestine occupied (I won't say any personal opinion due to the rules of the forum), Rangers fans in their turn started waving Israeli flags purely as provocation. Ridiculous from both sides. Basque flags can also be seen in some Northern Irish streets. I saw Palestinian and Israeli flags in Northern Irish streets while I wonder if the average of those people know where to situate the likes of Haifa, Ramallah or Tel Aviv on a map. At some point Palestinian and Israeli flags started to be displayed in sports games as well. I would highly doubt that the average person waving these flags knows anything about Israel or Palestine, it is mainly a tribalist thing (although I don't want to generalise, surely some will know the history of the area, but I am just saying the majority of those waving these flags does it without knowing a lot of the backgrounds of Israel or Palestine)

Maybe Tottenham, Antwerp and Ajax have a real sympathy for jews, but Rangers? Definitely not. For the others I am unsure why they wave the star of David. I would still say the real Jewish clubs such as Makkabi Berlin and Hakoah Wien are the ones who really deserve praise, they were actually set up with the sole target to help and support the Jewish community

Actually, although they are huge rivals of Ajax and don't wave the Star of David, Feyenoord should get lot of credit by Jewish football fans. Ajax fans may show the symbol but did virtually nothing to protect jewish players or jews in general from being deported into the camps during the World War. Feyenoord may never display the Star of David, but several people involved with the club offered shelter to jews or helped them escape the area to safer places so that they could be saved from the nazi's. Waving a symbol is nice of course, but if any Dutch club was helpful to Jews in problems, it was actually Feyenoord and not their big rivals Ajax.



PS wasn't their a very famous Jewish soccer team in the States as well? From LA or surroundings I think? Probably the best established jewish football team outside of Israel and Europe.
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post #17 of 82 (permalink) Old June 9th, 2009, 14:30
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PS wasn't their a very famous Jewish soccer team in the States as well? From LA or surroundings I think? Probably the best established jewish football team outside of Israel and Europe.
Béla Gutmann played for several teams in New York between 1926 and 1932, New York Giants, New York Hakoah FC, Hakoah All Stars Brooklyn, New York Soccer Club, it might be one of them.

btw, too bad Hakoah Wien has no more football team. only some other sports.

also btw, you still living in Berlin-Wedding?

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post #18 of 82 (permalink) Old June 9th, 2009, 23:16
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My family is from Hungary, Im pretty sure there are only 50-60 thousand jews in Hungary, maybe 100,000 200,000 if you count ppl with jewish relatives...
there are about 100,000 officially alone in Budapest. but then add those who don't appear in the statistics. 200,000 is a realistic number.

edit: I found this wiki article

http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_zsid%...rorsz%C3%A1gon

it's only in hungarian but it says that there 80,000 members of the religious community and altogether 200,000 according to descendance but majority is not religious.


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post #19 of 82 (permalink) Old June 10th, 2009, 01:46
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Originally Posted by szövkap View Post
we had 2 or so foreign players all over the last years but they leave now well one of them is 38 now and he has done his job. our policy is more like not signing any players except it is a major bargain but basically all the players come from our own academy. thats why we have a very young average age of players. also, the club don't have money to buy anyways, remember we have average attendances of around 1,000 (one thosand)

I have a nice book about the history, it came out to the 120th birthday last year but it is in Hungarian as you can guess. "Az MTK százhúsz éve" by Hencsei Pál. not only about football but all the other sports we were great at and providing many olympic winners and world champions. fencing, wrestling, boxing, kayak, table tennis, judo etc

about the murdering, well there was a very big community also before the war, about 700-800,000 in Hungary and the murdering began relatively late here, only in summer 1944 after Germany technically occupied us and installed that puppet regime. so thats why there were more survivors here compared to other countries.

as for me and my "25%" well it's from my grandmother whose name was Kohn although that was not the hungarian side of my family but the austrian one. nonetheless, I consider myself a Danubian () who supports Hungary and MTK and has some jewish background.
It is an intresting policy of praising youth players. That must be the reason they are called "Akademia" right? Well, of course income from fans make a big difference. The fact that the richest man in Hungary is their main sponsor give some more power to think in possible transfers? Anyways, i still support this policy praising the youth players and buying when possible.

Regarding the book i imagined they must one or other and probably only in Hungarian. Don´t think they would try to make a bestseller out of it knowing that they bring average less 1,000 fans to the games and some curious guys like me would buy the book
Anyways if you have any article, any book in english about MTK or Hungarian football i would appreciate very much if you let me know.

About WWII, definitely the murderes came late, but still thought it would be less because of fear, the creation of Israel and so on.

About your identity, forgive my curiosity, it is not the place to ask these private things, but anyways thank you for the attention about the issue.
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post #20 of 82 (permalink) Old June 10th, 2009, 02:26
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Wow I didn't know that about the Hungarian clubs and especially Ajax and Tottenham, cool
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