Would USA and Mexico make it in CONMEBOL? - Xtratime Community
View Poll Results: Would USA and Mexico qualify?
USA would, Mexico would not 4 10.26%
Mexico would, USA would not 14 35.90%
Both would qualify 11 28.21%
Neither would qualify 10 25.64%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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post #1 of 62 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 01:14 Thread Starter
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Would USA and Mexico make it in CONMEBOL?

I know this question is a fictional one, one that will never take place, but let's say USA and Mexico were added to CONMEBOL for World Cup qualifying.

Would either USA or Mexico qualify?
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post #2 of 62 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 03:01
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USA would definintly.

Mexico, I'm not sure

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post #3 of 62 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 20:45
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Neither one would ....that simple !!!!

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post #4 of 62 (permalink) Old December 10th, 2004, 20:58
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Well, the travel issue would be a big hinderance, traveling thousands of miles to play one game is just stupid. America has lots of talent and I think we could make it. Mexico seems to be stuck in a bit of a rut and I can't see them doing well there.

If America did qualify out of CONMEBOL, it would be one of the lower spots.

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post #5 of 62 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 00:03
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The US would not get points playing away from home. Perhaps they'd be able to snatch away a point in Venezuela and/or Peru but that's a far as it goes.

On the other hand, I easily see Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay taking points away from the US in Columbus/Foxboro.

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post #6 of 62 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 03:15 Thread Starter
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Well the way I see it both would finish behind Brasil and Argentina, but I believe both the USA and Mexico would advance.

However, forced to choose one or the other, like I've said I would say Mexico. In CONCACAF we play well away from home and are good in certain stadiums, but lack the great home Azteca is. Having an all-dominating stadium like Mexico does guarantees many points for them. Even in CONCACAF almost all teams would struggle to get more than a point playing away there.

In America, they would struggle but more on the strength of our talented team than due to the altitude and high grass, like in Mexico. I believe we'd advance in the fourth spot, behind Argentina, Mexico, and Brasil. We'd get good points at home but away we'd struggle occasionally but also pop up with some good results. We'd struggle indefinately in Argentina and Brasil due to the sheer quality of our opposition, but in places like Colombia or Uruguay I think we'd be able to pick up a point or even three because we have greater talent than these teams, to eventually overcome the stifling atmospheres.

I fear American players would be subject to great abuse in many of these stadiums as well. Seen as aristocrats and idiots by many in Central and South America, we constantly sustain abuse on away trips, in particular to Mexico. In games in poverty-stricken countries such as Argentina our footballers could be in for a hellish time.

In Mexico our players have bags of urine and feces thrown at them, and chants of 'Osama, Osama.' Ridiculous stuff, and I fear it'd be worse in South America.
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post #7 of 62 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 03:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loco
The US would not get points playing away from home. Perhaps they'd be able to snatch away a point in Venezuela and/or Peru but that's a far as it goes.

On the other hand, I easily see Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay taking points away from the US in Columbus/Foxboro.
US beat Paraguay last yr 2-0 Bealsey bitchslapped their defenders. Probably the US would struggle today? but in da future..when da next american generation(more talented than da oldies) are playing and have gained international experience...eddie Johnson , Eddie Gaven, Ricardo clark , Chad Marshall , Spector , Szetela, adu , ect...they will make it.
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post #8 of 62 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 03:26
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And also Mexico would fight for a spot againt da US , Paraguay , Argentina.
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post #9 of 62 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 04:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loco
The US would not get points playing away from home. Perhaps they'd be able to snatch away a point in Venezuela and/or Peru but that's a far as it goes.

On the other hand, I easily see Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay taking points away from the US in Columbus/Foxboro.
What would the Brazilians know about playing during 15?F weather on a frosty pitch in Columbus? The cold would get to them, like it always gets to Mexico!

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post #10 of 62 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 07:17
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Originally Posted by MagicalEd
What would the Brazilians know about playing during 15?F weather on a frosty pitch in Columbus? The cold would get to them, like it always gets to Mexico!
All Mexicans (with the exception of Marquez) play in Mexican clubs as opposed to Brazilians who play for European clubs and do know what 15 F weather feels like.

You gotta think your replies thru before you post rubbish like the one quoted above.

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post #11 of 62 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 13:19
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All Mexicans (with the exception of Marquez) play in Mexican clubs as opposed to Brazilians who play for European clubs and do know what 15 F weather feels like.

You gotta think your replies thru before you post rubbish like the one quoted above.
Right :rollani:

Buddy most of the South American players would not know what it is like to play in Ohio. Trust me, you have no idea what it is like her, much worse than anywhere in Europe, barring Eastern Europe. But, not many South American internationals play in Eastern Europe. Coming from Ohio, I know that our weather is much worse than anything in Europe and playing here at night in December or some other time, it gets terrible.

I guess you just don't realize how harsh are weather is

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post #12 of 62 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 21:47 Thread Starter
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Exactly.

Playing in the cold weather in western Europe and playing in the cold weather in DC or especially Columbus is a whole different game. In Columbus, in colder months, teams almost always falter. The pitch gets a good bit of frost on it, so it's hard to play in, the air is moist so it gets really frosty quick, and it's windy. And for International games, the fans step it up a notch and really get in the face of the opposition.

And while I already accepted we wouldn't finish above Brasil or Argentina, many of the other teams would falter even worse in our conditions. Other South American teams are comprised mainly of players within their own league or other South American leagues, so the weather would be even more of a shock than to those who play in Europe.
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post #13 of 62 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 22:54
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I lived in Chicago for a number of years so I know how cold it gets in the winter. I've also spent time in northern Italy, Germany and England. during the winter. Ever been? judging by your comments I doubt you have. It's as cold or perhaps even colder than Ohio during december.

Also, you geniuses forgot the fact that the WC qualifiers are not held exclusively during the North American winter but all year round. Who's to say Brazil, Venezuela or even Colombia are to play in Colombus during December? What if the US were to get Argentina, Uruguay or Chile instead? These countries have as harsh winters as anyone in the region and sure know how to addapt to such circumstances on the pitch.

Sorry, as much as I like and most importantly respect the US Nats it's a safe bet that Sam's Army would miss out on the WC given the circumstances.

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post #14 of 62 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 23:08 Thread Starter
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But for every disadvantage the USA would be given, so too would they posess an advatage.

Like you've mentioned, scheduling would possibly rob the USA of having home games in the harsh winter of Columbus. But the USA has long qualified playing not solely in the North American winter.

No, we're not mentally retarded, we figured that playing 18 qualifiers would have to be played in more than three months. I just believe the USA has too much quality to be defeated by most of the sides in CONMEBOL. It's possible we could struggle against the likes of Brasil and Argentina, but it's also equally possible we could pull out a great performance.

In our last three games against Brasil, we've lost 2-1 (Pathetic Cup) 1-0 (World Cup, never should have lost) and defeated them 1-0. We can compete against the biggest talents in the world. What's more, Brasil are often missing at least one or two key players from Europe for each World Cup Qualifier.

Back to advantages and disadvantages, you would likely point out the travel involved for Americans to come from the USA to South America. While this would be hard against the smaller nations where most players are located within, against Brasil or Argentina it would not be that big of a disadvantage at all because, as you've mentioned, many of their players are located overseas and would have to make a long plane ride anyways.

Another disadvantage you'll mention is the quality of our league is below those Brasilians and Argentines are in, not to mention many of the more talented South American players (Brasilian Champeonate and Argentine Clasura are of better quality than MLS.) However, the league isn't that bad anyways, and while this is a disadvantage, there are also benefits that come along with it. First off, this leaves the MLS players more refreshed for qualifiers. Also, there are only 28 games instead of 38 like most European leagues, and MLS players usually miss a game for WC qualifiers, so they often end up playing only 25 or so games, so they'll be sharper for world cup qualifiers.

But we also have many players overseas, with players in England, Germany...even Norway! The point is that our players have the talent to go overseas - something not true of many of those in South American and Central American leagues.

All in all, it shows that the USA has the talent to qualify from a group as difficult as CONMEBOL.
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post #15 of 62 (permalink) Old December 11th, 2004, 23:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loco
I lived in Chicago for a number of years so I know how cold it gets in the winter. I've also spent time in northern Italy, Germany and England. during the winter. Ever been? judging by your comments I doubt you have. It's as cold or perhaps even colder than Ohio during december.

Also, you geniuses forgot the fact that the WC qualifiers are not held exclusively during the North American winter but all year round. Who's to say Brazil, Venezuela or even Colombia are to play in Colombus during December? What if the US were to get Argentina, Uruguay or Chile instead? These countries have as harsh winters as anyone in the region and sure know how to addapt to such circumstances on the pitch.

Sorry, as much as I like and most importantly respect the US Nats it's a safe bet that Sam's Army would miss out on the WC given the circumstances.
Loco, you're whole thing is based on the typical stereotype that the rest of the world takes towards America: we can't play "soccer".

You fail to realize that we are becoming a powerhouse in the world and that the game is taking root here in the States. Get overyouself. How far did Argentina go at the last world cup? Now, how far did the United States go? Think about that.

Isaac stated in his post, America has done well against Brasil in the last three encounters. That's true. Right now we are playing some of the best football that I've ever seen, we're crusing as a national team. Please, tell me which teams would finish higher than America in CONMEBOL? I am not trying to say that we would win the group, I know we won't. But, we would be able to qualify.

Now, about the location issue. America's form at Crew Stadium is phenominal, we always do well there. The goal we conceeded against Jaimaica was one of the few goals we've allowed there. Don't forget we dominated Paraguay here 2-0, as you know, a CONMEBOL team.

So please, before you post, leave your rest of world bias at the door.

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post #16 of 62 (permalink) Old December 12th, 2004, 00:48
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I am not downplaying the talent of the US Nats nor overlooking the fact that they're on the rise. I am saying that you two do not have a clue how intense the CONMEBOL WC qualifier really are, however. Any record that the US has against any South American team on firendlies and/or mickey mouse cups can be thrown out the window.

If you take a few minutes and study the excruciating and brutal schedule that CONMEBOL goes thru to get to have a chance in reaching the WC you'll (perhaps) understand a bit more on what I'm talking about. Every previous encounter on record is scratched. A whole new ball game. South American countries bring the top-level teams and are pressure to the extreme to get three points specially at home. You have no idea how tough it is winning on the road during the SA qualifiers, even for teams like Argentina and Brasil.

Hey, even CONCACAF's giants Mexico would have to go at it tooth and nail to end up 5th, the play-off spot.

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post #17 of 62 (permalink) Old December 12th, 2004, 00:54
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Having both countries playing their lifes in the COMENBOL
im sure FIFA will grant one more spot for the World Cup
so I predict (Im damn good at predictions) that one of the two team will
make it, I rate USA and Mexico better than Ecuador and they even made it
the last time. Mexico has been beating Ecuador for fun in the last three games
so there you go.

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post #18 of 62 (permalink) Old December 12th, 2004, 00:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loco
I am not downplaying the talent of the US Nats nor overlooking the fact that they're on the rise. I am saying that you two do not have a clue how intense the CONMEBOL WC qualifier really are, however. Any record that the US has against any South American team on firendlies and/or mickey mouse cups can be thrown out the window.
.
Thats the same kind of opinion i heard before Mexico enter La Copa America I think in their first year or probably their second one they went right till the final against Argentina, same can be said with Copa Libertadores.

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Last edited by Alter Ego; December 12th, 2004 at 01:19.
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post #19 of 62 (permalink) Old December 12th, 2004, 01:10 Thread Starter
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Hey, even CONCACAF's giants Mexico would have to go at it tooth and nail to end up 5th, the play-off spot.
In case you haven't noticed, Mexico is not the CONCACAF Giant, the USA easily is the biggest team within CONCACAF.

Anyways, I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree with it all. I have watched CONMEBOL qualifiers, I've seen the stadiums, the crowds, I've read about it. I know it would not be easy, but apart from the big 2 CONMEBOL is a pretty average region. It's much like the Scottish Premier League. There's the big two (Celtic/Rangers) and then there's a scattering of smaller sides with about equal talent, and they generally take turns appearing from the pack, and one or two tend to do a little better than the others.

I believe, should the USA and Mexico be in the South American region, they would not struggle as much as you say. I believe they'd be the one or two to be a little better than the pack each time.

I'm not saying they wouldn't struggle, I just believe that overall, talent would prevail. It's not an easy task to come to the USA for a qualifier anymore, so it wouldn't be like they could come here and have their way either. They'd have to play just as hard or harder as we would going to their respective nations.

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Any record that the US has against any South American team on firendlies and/or mickey mouse cups can be thrown out the window.
So can the World Cup be thrown out then? Is it just a Mickey Mouse competition setting the stage for a bigger tournament...such as the Confederations Cup? No, the USA performs when it matters. When against inferior competition we use better technical skills to overwhelm and defeat them. Against better teams, we know how to use tactics and generally smart football to grind out draws and victories in matches we should perhaps not win.

For example, against Mexico in the World Cup. Since the tables have shifted and we are the better team, but then they were playing better football and had played better up to that point in the tournament. However, we came out and defended brilliantly and scored two fantastic goals to go through to the quarterfinals.

It was in the quarterfinals that we also showed we can play a good game of football as well. Dominating the Germans for 90 minutes, no real supporter can we weren't the better side. What's more, it took a bad piece of officiating to keep us from a penalty, a German sending off, and a likely place in the semi-finals.



In CONMEBOL, the USA would know how to get results. We know how to play in difficult situations away from home, having to travel to notoriously unruly and anti-American zones such as Costa Rica, Honduras, Guatemala, and of course huge rivals Mexico. Travelling to South American nations such as Uruguay or Paraguay would be no different from this. It would be difficult, yes, but we have the knowledge and skill required to do so.

The most difficult thing for the USA to have to adjust to would be the increased number of games. Going from 10 games to 18 would no doubt be a shock, but with all due respect, like I've said, our players would be fresher because of less league games, so we'd have the stamina to fight on despite the increased number of games.

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South American countries bring the top-level teams and are pressure to the extreme to get three points specially at home.
And Central American teams don't? Do you really think Ecuador and Peru are better than Mexico away? Or 'The Ticos' in their intense, frightful central American home? The pressure is on for them and all CONCACAF teams to get the victory at home just as much or more than CONMEBOL sides.

That brings up another point. In CONCACAF, the USA is looked at as the team to beat. Every time we play, we have a big bulls-eye on our backs. It's comparative to Manchester United or Chelsea in England. Whenever they take on a littler team, their opposition always play that little bit better to try to take the big scalp of the big money teams. For us it's no different. No matter who we play, they have extra support and extra effort just for us. Every game is that little bit harder than it would be for someone else because we are the biggest team in the region, the big-money artistocrats, so they are under added pressure to beat us.

Should we be in CONMEBOL, we would not have this same pressure at every game. Sure, we would still be looked upon as the rich men to beat, but we wouldn't have as big of a bulls-eye as we do in North and Central America. Brasil and Argentina shoulder this burden in South America, which means we'd lose that pressure. This would lead to us being able to play our game without that added tension, leading to better results.

American players have played in the Old Firm Derby, the Tyneside Derby, the Manchester Derby...they have experience with the harshest situations in the world. They've played Mexico away, possibly the hardest place to go in the world for a football match - they had not lost a qualifier there, ever, before qualifying for the last World Cup and Costa Rica.

It's not like our players would be in this strange world they'd never experienced. They'd be used to the abuse, they'd know how to play. They'd know what to do, and they'd qualify.
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post #20 of 62 (permalink) Old December 12th, 2004, 03:24
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In case you haven't noticed, Mexico is not the CONCACAF Giant, the USA easily is the biggest team within CONCACAF.
I beg to differ. Mexico is still the ‘one-eyed king’ with the US right on their heal. But hey, opinions are like ass holes…

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It's much like the Scottish Premier League. There's the big two (Celtic/Rangers) and then there's a scattering of smaller sides with about equal talent
Equal talent perhaps but far better than any of the ridiculous CONCACAF teams like Jamaica, Honduras, El Salvador, Costa Rica, etc. Some even better than the US and Mexico.

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It's not an easy task to come to the USA for a qualifier anymore, so it wouldn't be like they could come here and have their way either.
Easy for whom? The Virgin Isles, Panama, Haiti, Cuba? Any other team composed of carpenters are plumbers that I may have missed?

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So can the World Cup be thrown out then? Is it just a Mickey Mouse competition setting the stage for a bigger tournament...such as the Confederations Cup?
Leave your sarcasm aside. Of course the WC is the biggest of stage and every other record should be thrown out as well, including the WC qualifiers. After all, isn’t the WC all we shoot for?

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No, the USA performs when it matters
I guess the US ’98 team didn’t get that memo.

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For example, against Mexico in the World Cup. Since the tables have shifted and we are the better team,
A win against Mexico in a WC does not make the US top dog. It was a very important win, it came when it mattered most but in reality Mexico is still a better foot-balling nation (god knows for how long) with the US not being too far behind – behind nonetheless.

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In CONMEBOL, the USA would know how to get results.
No they would not. The US has no track record worth mentioning playing in South America against South American teams. They have nothing to build on but expectations on how things could turn out.

Also, they’ve never taken part of a such a grueling and stressful competition that is the CONMEBOL WC qualifiers. It’s not as easy as saying “it’s 20 games”. Just ask Brasil who had to beat Venezuela on their last game just so they could qualify for the WC which they eventually won.

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We know how to play in difficult situations away from home, having to travel to notoriously unruly and anti-American zones such as Costa Rica, Honduras, Guatemala, and of course huge rivals Mexico. Travelling to South American nations such as Uruguay or Paraguay would be no different from this. It would be difficult, yes, but we have the knowledge and skill required to do so.
Please don’t say it would be the same because it wouldn’t. Also, don’t put countries like Honduras and Guatemala in the same sentence as Paraguay and Uruguay. Those talent less sorry excuse for a football team have done nothing to have such privilege.

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our players would be fresher because of less league games, so we'd have the stamina to fight on despite the increased number of games.
Right, specially during the months of June – September where the MLS is in full effect.

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And Central American teams don't? Do you really think Ecuador and Peru are better than Mexico away? Or 'The Ticos' in their intense, frightful central American home? The pressure is on for them and all CONCACAF teams to get the victory at home just as much or more than CONMEBOL sides.
Mexico in the ‘Azteca’ is the only one intimidating enough mostly due to the altitude on Mex City and that awful pollution. Yeah, and they have a much better understanding of CONMEBOL teams as they’ve faced them numerous times.

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Should we be in CONMEBOL, we would not have this same pressure at every game. Sure, we would still be looked upon as the rich men to beat, but we wouldn't have as big of a bulls-eye as we do in North and Central America. Brasil and Argentina shoulder this burden in South America, which means we'd lose that pressure. This would lead to us being able to play our game without that added tension, leading to better results.
The US would be taken as seriously as any other CONMEBOL foe, including the top two.

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They've played Mexico away, possibly the hardest place to go in the world for a football match
The hardest place the US has ever been to, perhaps but hardly in the world.

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It's not like our players would be in this strange world they'd never experienced. They'd be used to the abuse, they'd know how to play. They'd know what to do, and they'd qualify.
I’m sure they’d know how to play tho they’d lose nine times out of ten.

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