Why are we this good all of a sudden? - Xtratime Community
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old August 22nd, 2008, 14:25 Thread Starter
Fourth Place winner, January 2009 Photo Contest
Premier Player
 
Pepinovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03 2005
Location: Melbourne
Teams: The mighty Belgian NT
Posts: 2,465
Why are we this good all of a sudden?

Let's face it. We've been utter crap for years now and all of a sudden we've got this generation that gets into 2 semi finals in just over a year's time, and that with several key players absent in both tournaments.

What's going on? Has our grassroots structure improved that much? Is this just a crazy generation? Or is it the foreign blood that has enriched our team?

Not that I'm expecting us to ever win anything, but Pocognoli, Kompany, Vertonghen, Vermaelen, Fellaini, Defour, Dembele, Mirallas, Hazard hopefully... If only we could have another worldclass goalkeeper and a natural goalscorer for once

Δεν ελπίζω τίποτε. Δεν φοβάμαι τίποτε. Είμαι λεύτερος.

Justice is judgement that is both fair and forgiving. Justice is not done until everyone is satisfied, even those who offend us. Justice is not only the way we punish those who do wrong but is also the way we try to save them.
Pepinovic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old August 22nd, 2008, 15:05
Forum Manager
Legend
 
Yashimi Nakitu's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2002
Location: Belgica
Teams: Milan, BIH NT, Velez Mostar
Posts: 19,774
Let's not exaggerate... the only real opponent the team has beaten is Italy and they aren't that exceptional either. They've played well... there's no doubt about that but the opposition hasn't been anything special.

This new generation is definetly better than the one before it but I have the feeling the Belgian press is overrating them a bit.
Yashimi Nakitu is offline  
post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old August 22nd, 2008, 15:43 Thread Starter
Fourth Place winner, January 2009 Photo Contest
Premier Player
 
Pepinovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03 2005
Location: Melbourne
Teams: The mighty Belgian NT
Posts: 2,465
I'm not exaggerating... We just need to compare this generation to the prior ones and note the difference.

For sure we've only beaten Italy, but we also qualified for this tournament (after we also qualified for that U21 euro) and only lost against Brazil in our first match after Kompany got sent off.

What did Brazil do in the olympics? They only beat us and Cameroon really.

Again, I'm not saying we're champions at all and I have no idea what the Belgian press says about them, but you can't deny the sudden huge difference in quality.

Δεν ελπίζω τίποτε. Δεν φοβάμαι τίποτε. Είμαι λεύτερος.

Justice is judgement that is both fair and forgiving. Justice is not done until everyone is satisfied, even those who offend us. Justice is not only the way we punish those who do wrong but is also the way we try to save them.
Pepinovic is offline  
 
post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old August 22nd, 2008, 16:13
BANNED!
Star Player
 
HoratioNelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2005
Teams: the one you like to h8
Posts: 3,390
The U23 lacks a good goalkeeper, a striker and a pair of good centerbacks. If we get those some way or another this team could go places. On the other hand, the last two games were really a bit of choking I'm afraid.
HoratioNelson is offline  
post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old August 22nd, 2008, 17:54
Forum Manager
Legend
 
Yashimi Nakitu's Avatar
 
Join Date: 08 2002
Location: Belgica
Teams: Milan, BIH NT, Velez Mostar
Posts: 19,774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepinovic View Post
I'm not exaggerating... We just need to compare this generation to the prior ones and note the difference.

For sure we've only beaten Italy, but we also qualified for this tournament (after we also qualified for that U21 euro) and only lost against Brazil in our first match after Kompany got sent off.

What did Brazil do in the olympics? They only beat us and Cameroon really.

Again, I'm not saying we're champions at all and I have no idea what the Belgian press says about them, but you can't deny the sudden huge difference in quality.
Don't get me wrong, I do agree that this generation is definitly an improvement compared to the previous one but I think that this isn't a special generation, it's just that the previous one sucked big time. Belgium's standard should be higher than what we've seen in recent years. It has the facilities to do well and football is very popular here. I know you'll probably say that the infrastracture is crap but you are probably comparing it to countries such as England, Holland and France (who are the best there is) but I'm used to differend stuff (Balkan countries for example).

I think this generation has what it takes to make it to the big tournaments and Belgum's goal should be to always be at these tournaments, that's why I think the media is overrating them. I hope you get what I mean.
Yashimi Nakitu is offline  
post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old August 22nd, 2008, 20:47
Highly Evolved
International
 
Crackedpleasures's Avatar
 
Join Date: 10 2007
Location: travelling and wandering
Teams: KV Oostende, Rosenborg BK, Norway, Israel, Turkey
Posts: 5,697
Quote:
Originally Posted by Referee View Post
The U23 lacks a good goalkeeper, a striker and a pair of good centerbacks. If we get those some way or another this team could go places. On the other hand, the last two games were really a bit of choking I'm afraid.
Bailly does have the talent to become a top class goalie. He needs to find the level back from when he was shining at a very young age in the Heusden Zolder goal. He has since then had a status quo rather than further progress, but he is still young and can be the next big Belgian goalkeeper sensation. Agree about lacking a striker with "tor instinct" though, but other than that the team seems fairly complete.

I think Belgium never had a problem with a lack of talent anyway, the problem with the main team seems to be psychological and (kicking in an open door I'm afraid) an extremely bad tactical system with the FA lacking the guts to bring in a coach who can get the best out of the available players. The talent is still there.

By the way, this team could have gotten bronze. Brazil are overprotected once again. Right at the moment Belgium was putting pressure on them and getting a boost in confidence, the referee allows Brazil to score from offside position. That really cracked the moral of the team.

But Belgium was the only European country to make the final 4, they have gotten further than most people expected, and that was without some key players and without any +23 players (unlike the other teams in the semi finals). So they did extremely well and deserve praise. And who knows, with an honest referee they could have maybe gotten the bronze, because without that second Brazilian goal the 1-1 was really not that far away.
Crackedpleasures is offline  
post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old August 22nd, 2008, 23:12 Thread Starter
Fourth Place winner, January 2009 Photo Contest
Premier Player
 
Pepinovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03 2005
Location: Melbourne
Teams: The mighty Belgian NT
Posts: 2,465
I'm not sure if we're supposed to qualify for tournaments though. We did in the past, mainly because countries like Turkey, Greece, Norway etc... were really bad, but those countries have caught up with us now.

Our infrastructure might help us, but then our society doesn't. Sports aren't that important in Belgium and like in Holland and Switzerland, you see the % of 2nd migration migrants in the NT is much bigger than their % in society - a sign that either football is foor "the poor" (which is very relative of course) or that these recent migrants are willing to work a lot harder than the other Belgians (which happens everywhere).

20 years ago we had no African players in the world's best 10. Then there was Weah and quite recently there were 3 already with Drogba, Eto'o and Essien. There is a trend in global football that is not helping us at all (Cristiano Ronaldo also comes from an island with relative poverty).

We'll have to wait and see.

Δεν ελπίζω τίποτε. Δεν φοβάμαι τίποτε. Είμαι λεύτερος.

Justice is judgement that is both fair and forgiving. Justice is not done until everyone is satisfied, even those who offend us. Justice is not only the way we punish those who do wrong but is also the way we try to save them.
Pepinovic is offline  
post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old August 23rd, 2008, 09:54
Star Player
 
binswhacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12 2001
Location: Leuven, Belgium
Teams: BRUGGE Celtic,Schalke,VCF - Belgium, Slovenia
Posts: 4,168
Two things puzzle me about this thread.

First: why all of a sudden? Over the past 5 to 10 years, our youth teams (U-21, U-19, U-17) have been/become a bit of a regular on international tournaments. Not to say that we won much or that it made a lot of press, but we were there. So the current success just seems like a logical (and hopefully only first) climax to years of work by people who realised that decent academies are one of the main keys to success for a country like Belgium. A few in Belgium itself, but mostly in Holland and France. Apart from an exceptional talent like Kompany, most of the key players have had part of their formation in Holland or France and you have to wonder wether they would have gotten this far staying in Belgium. So, if anything this result should most of all be an encouragement to keep up and increase the hard work of the past years on those levels rather than a reward.

Second: that good? That's a bit relative, no? We've bottled it against the Ukrainians, we've had the salonremise-story against the Dutchies and the ref against the Italians. Which takes nothing away from the merits and the potential of the team, laat dat duidelijk zijn.

So in short, there are side two sides to this story. One is that this generation is indeed good and that the results should be appreciated. Yes, Dembele is awesome and the team has good players with potential and beating an Italian youth team is impressive, but that's where it ends. In relation to delivering good first team players, the results of these teams are nice, but relative as well.

Second thing, now what? Not much in short term, I'm afraid. We're probably not going to South-Africa and maybe not even to wherever it will be in 2012 (I understand Poland and Ukraine also are in a bit of trouble organisationwise, is that true?). If anything, we should give guys like Dembele, De Mul, Vermaelen, Martens, Pocognoli,... some years to improve on club level and hope they develop and make the steps that the previous generation failed to make. Though I'm afraid that in Belgian style, we'll grasp at straws (again) and demand too much too soon. It should be interesting how these young boys will deal with that.

'There has never been anything false about hope.' (Barack Obama)
binswhacker is offline  
post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old August 24th, 2008, 13:32 Thread Starter
Fourth Place winner, January 2009 Photo Contest
Premier Player
 
Pepinovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03 2005
Location: Melbourne
Teams: The mighty Belgian NT
Posts: 2,465
Yeah but these young boys aren't that young anymore these days. Messi (21) and Aguero (20) are practically the 2 best players in la liga, in England there are Cristiano Ronaldo (23), Fabregas (21) and Torres (24) among the best... Ronaldinho at 28 is past it and I bet you that of these players I just named, none will be as good at 28 as they are now.

Guys like Dembele, Fellaini, Vermaelen, Kompany... should be as fully grown as they'll ever be. Especially Dembele has no excuse for staying at AZ if he wants to get the best out of his career.

Instead of overprotecting them like little babies, we should just put all these players in the 1st team and only add those that add real value, like Mudingayi and Simons. No more Goor, Sonck or Mpenza anymore.

Δεν ελπίζω τίποτε. Δεν φοβάμαι τίποτε. Είμαι λεύτερος.

Justice is judgement that is both fair and forgiving. Justice is not done until everyone is satisfied, even those who offend us. Justice is not only the way we punish those who do wrong but is also the way we try to save them.
Pepinovic is offline  
post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old August 25th, 2008, 00:16
FM of the Year 2007
Legend
 
TomRSCA's Avatar
 
Join Date: 07 2004
Location: Aalst - Belgium
Teams: RSC Anderlecht
Posts: 10,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepinovic View Post
Instead of overprotecting them like little babies, we should just put all these players in the 1st team and only add those that add real value, like Mudingayi and Simons. No more Goor, Sonck or Mpenza anymore.
Not really on this subject, but ... Mudingayi a player with real value ? I see Mudingayi collecting balls over and over again, but losing them straight away due to his disastrous passing.

As well Fellaini as Vertonghen are way better defensive midfielders then Mudingayi imo.

Mattheus 7:1-6
Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

Belgian Football Forum
RSC Anderlecht Thread
TomRSCA is offline  
post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old August 26th, 2008, 11:35
Star Player
 
binswhacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: 12 2001
Location: Leuven, Belgium
Teams: BRUGGE Celtic,Schalke,VCF - Belgium, Slovenia
Posts: 4,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepinovic View Post
Yeah but these young boys aren't that young anymore these days. Messi (21) and Aguero (20) are practically the 2 best players in la liga, in England there are Cristiano Ronaldo (23), Fabregas (21) and Torres (24) among the best... Ronaldinho at 28 is past it and I bet you that of these players I just named, none will be as good at 28 as they are now.

Guys like Dembele, Fellaini, Vermaelen, Kompany... should be as fully grown as they'll ever be. Especially Dembele has no excuse for staying at AZ if he wants to get the best out of his career.

Instead of overprotecting them like little babies, we should just put all these players in the 1st team and only add those that add real value, like Mudingayi and Simons. No more Goor, Sonck or Mpenza anymore.
What on earth are you talking about?

I haven't said a thing about protecting, let alone overprotecting the players. If anything, that attitude was perhaps just one of the reasons why the previous generation never spawned the leaders these young boys can use to help them advance NT-wise now.

Actually, I'm growing more and more convinced that we have no real leaders (or at least not enough) on NT level because we have no Belgians taking charge/responsibility on club level as well (yet), in spite of us (our press, FA, fans,...) talking about "all the players at the big teams" like Bayern, PSV, Lille, Zenith and so on and so on. If a player's just "tagging along", playing his matches and getting his minutes, he can not just turn the button and say "oh right, now I have to lead" when he steps on the NT-train every two or three months; it's not that simple. Maybe a number of these young guys can take that step to become a leader or at least a responsible player on club level and then pull that line through in the first team of Belgium for the future.

I have no idea how soon they can make those steps (that's for other people to judge), but it would be na´ve imo to think that these things happen overnight instead of taking 1 or 2 or maybe 3 years. In their own club environment and in their own rythm. Each player develops differently, so comparing them to whoever makes little sense as you can go pretty much any which way with those comparisons.

So yes, you can drop the youngsters in the A-squad and yes, you can form a squad around them and yes, you can be critical of them but at least fairly, with all things in the right perspective. We also have to realise that they need to become better players with their club and some of them leaders before becoming really important for Belgium. Without arguing about names (pro or against Janneke and Jefke), it's realistic imo to say the red devils won't set the world on fire for the next few years, let alone qualify for a major tournament. If we do make the WC in 2010 (or maybe even the EC in 2012), all the better. If we don't, there's not necessarily a man overboard. Because the new generation of players needs to learn the next important things elsewhere than in the NT, except maybe for who they can genuinely learn from and who not and how to deal with media incidents (though they seem to do fine in that department so far ).

'There has never been anything false about hope.' (Barack Obama)
binswhacker is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Xtratime Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive. Try to avoid choosing short (like '1'), simple (like 'abcd') and easy to guess passwords (like a name of your favorite team, player, etc)! Complex and long enough passwords, that consists of random string of alphabet and numerical characters, are almost impossible to be stolen and misused.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome