Belgian vs. Dutch league - Xtratime Community
 
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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old December 20th, 2005, 11:30 Thread Starter
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Belgian vs. Dutch league

I was wondering what you guys think is the best system, the Belgian or the Dutch.

Dutch system has no promoted teams from third division (because of the division professional/amateur) and has a system based on licences you can become by putting down your candidature.

The Belgian system has the surprise element of teams being able to move up or down three divisions in three years. I guess we also have another licence system, because many clubs have been the victim of this in recent years.

Also, should it be possible that a club like PSV (or some italian or spanish clubs) for example has so many debts and can still play in Europe?

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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old December 20th, 2005, 13:38
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That's a noodle-scratcher.
Gotta think about that one.
BTW: this doesn't happen to be Lierse-related now does it?

"I never knew my birth parents. There was a car accident. my birth mother was incinerated, and I only survived because her smoking carcass had formed a protective cocoon of slaughtered human effluence. A Belgian man and his fifteen year-old love slave were looting the accident scene, came across a blood soaked baby, moi, and they raised me to be evil."
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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old December 20th, 2005, 14:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampfschwein
That's a noodle-scratcher.
Gotta think about that one.
BTW: this doesn't happen to be Lierse-related now does it?


Well, Lierse only has a scratch of PSV's debts so that's a major difference. Having said that, their policy has been lacking over the past few months. First promise to give youth players more chances and then with a big smile sign Tony Vairelles and Daniel Cruz, well... :undecide:

Other than that, I like the idea as long as it's not a "or"-idea. The fact that teams really have to prove they have a following and resources suitable to play professional football. Otherwise, you can imo not underestimate the role of people like Germain Landsheere in a lot of files. A typical Belgian compromise is sometimes perhaps a valuable option as well. I also like the idea of having the reserves in either second, third or fourth division - more like the German model, if you will - but that will become more complicated then.

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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old December 20th, 2005, 14:32
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TBH I can't really say much about the relegation from proffesional league's because I'm not too familiar with the dutch system and these days most teams in the 2-3th division are only playing with a semi-proffesional status (or are simply there because they had to start over -> bankruptcy). I also do not believe that a REAL proffesional club will drop to provinciale that easily since the level of football between 2de and 3de klasse is very close to each other nowadays.

Also hard to say anything about the license system in Belgium since Antwerp is one of the only teams in the provence that didn't had to suffer it's consequences.

It's indeed much stricter than the others in Europe (even in Holland, Vitesse had almost 4 times the debts KV Mechelen had), but I think on a long term it should pay off.
I believe what we had 2-3 years ago in Belgium will strike other clubs in Europe in a few years from now twice as hard. (I just did happen to read a thread about Portugese clubs being in trouble in their forum)

Unless you offcourse have Berlusconni running the country.

"I never knew my birth parents. There was a car accident. my birth mother was incinerated, and I only survived because her smoking carcass had formed a protective cocoon of slaughtered human effluence. A Belgian man and his fifteen year-old love slave were looting the accident scene, came across a blood soaked baby, moi, and they raised me to be evil."
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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old December 20th, 2005, 15:34
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At this moment, in Holland teams can't relegate from the Eerste Divisie (second level), which means there are only 38 professional football clubs in Holland.

That doesn't take away, there are amateur sides who're far more popular and who have more fans. Also because of AGOVV and Omniworld meet the rules to get a licence and entered professional football in the last years, the KNVB decided to make it all open so teams will promote and relegate, if I'm right it's already confirmed, and will start in the 2007/2008 season.
So, we're going to the current Belgian system...

Then I think, is it clever to do that? Holland is, just as Belgium, a small country which means cities are close to eachother. Which means as well clubs are 'stealing' sponsors and fans from eachother. Mainly because of that, in Belgium many clubs went bust or had to merge (right?), think about Lommel, Harelbeke, RWDM, Germinal Ekeren etc. etc.
I think there's a huge chance that will happen in Holland as well, most amateur clubs have to invest in their stadium, security, infrastructure etc etc, plus there's huge competition of clubs near them, how can they ever survive?

So from a 'sportsman' point of view, I love the Belgian, and almost all systems in the world, because of the surprise effect, and the best team just should play at the highest levels.
On another note I'm afraid clubs can't survive... but we'll see.

Then about PSV, it's not that bad... take Real Madrid's situation, or the teams from Roma as examples. Remember they're probably going to sell their stadium, but even more important, they've got Philips... as long as Philips 'sponsors' PSV, I can't see real (!) financial troubles, and that will probably be forever.
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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old December 20th, 2005, 16:11
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I don't like the relegation system at all, but then again there's no centralized unit that cares for the clubs, it's everyone for himself
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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old December 21st, 2005, 16:39 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampfschwein
BTW: this doesn't happen to be Lierse-related now does it?
Not at all. Thanks for rubbing it in


Quote:
Originally Posted by binswhacker
Well, Lierse only has a scratch of PSV's debts so that's a major difference. Having said that, their policy has been lacking over the past few months. First promise to give youth players more chances and then with a big smile sign Tony Vairelles and Daniel Cruz, well...
Typical. We had a great youth policy ever since we returned from second division. Worst thing that could happen was becoming champion in 1997.

Quote:
Originally Posted by binswhacker
I also like the idea of having the reserves in either second, third or fourth division - more like the German model, if you will - but that will become more complicated then.
I don't see it work. If you look at Germany, harsh reality is that not many youth players reach the first team through the reserves. You've got Lahm, Podolski, Sahin and some others now, but if you look at the German potential (number of inhabitants, football being number one sport) the number of talents breaking through is not great.

Knoert, how is this done in Holland?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampfschwein
It's indeed much stricter than the others in Europe (even in Holland, Vitesse had almost 4 times the debts KV Mechelen had), but I think on a long term it should pay off.
I agree. And I think it's a disgrace, all these big clubs with huge debts humiliating honest and sane clubs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knoert
So from a 'sportsman' point of view, I love the Belgian, and almost all systems in the world, because of the surprise effect, and the best team just should play at the highest levels.
On another note I'm afraid clubs can't survive... but we'll see..
I'm inclined to agree. The surprise effect is wonderful, but your system gives stability. I also think that it's a big reason why you have so many good youngsters. Because most teams don't really have to care about league position, they can easily put promising youngsters in the team.

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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old December 21st, 2005, 18:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowski
I don't see it work. If you look at Germany, harsh reality is that not many youth players reach the first team through the reserves. You've got Lahm, Podolski, Sahin and some others now, but if you look at the German potential (number of inhabitants, football being number one sport) the number of talents breaking through is not great.

Knoert, how is this done in Holland?
Well, we've just got a 'reserve-teams league' which means one Beloften Eredivisie and two Eerste divisie's, the Beloften Eerste divisie A and Beloften Eerste Divisie B. Just as in 'real', teams can't relegate from the Eerste Divisie's.
The most important rule is, all players, except three or something, must be younger than 23 I believe (that's why it's called 'Beloften...'. The champion of the Eredivisie, and the Reserve-team cupwinner are allowed to participate in the real Cup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lebowski
I'm inclined to agree. The surprise effect is wonderful, but your system gives stability. I also think that it's a big reason why you have so many good youngsters. Because most teams don't really have to care about league position, they can easily put promising youngsters in the team.
That's true, of course teams who're bottom of the Eerste Divisie hate it, and most of them had financial troubles, also because of that they prefer giving their own youth players a chance instead of buying more expensive foreigners.
However, don't forget they period-titles (think you've got this too in Belgium?), they've got always something to play for, especially when a period only is 6 games since this season, all clubs can win a period-title and participate in the playoffs at the end of the season.
But like you said, there's no risk (yet) of relegation which means indeed youngsters will get earlier a chance.

Last edited by Knoert; December 21st, 2005 at 18:10.
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