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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old August 11th, 2009, 02:50 Thread Starter
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Kashtan until 2015?!?!?

Israel's World Cup qualification campaign is coming to an end and with it, perhaps, the dream of reaching the finals in South Africa next summer. But coach Dror Kashtan does not believe there is any reason why his team's almost certain failure to reach the finals should spell the end of his tenure with the national team.

Two weeks ago, Kashtan and his assistant, Moshe Sinai, spent a week in the company of the Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger. The two Israelis spent seven days at the Gunners' training camp in Austria and, they say, they returned from there with some insights that can change the face of Israeli soccer.

During their time with the French coach ("It was amazing to see how a great coach works and what respect he receives," says Kashtan. "That's something one doesn't see every day in soccer."), the two Israelis met the assistant coach of the German national team, Hans-Dieter Flick, and asked him about the way the national team is run in his country.

French lessons

"The Germans decided to change the way they work and recently adopted the French system, which has proved itself to be very effective," says Sinai. "Even the great Germans recognized that in order to succeed on the biggest stage of all, they need to adopt a unified system throughout their national teams. They also believe that this will help them win tournaments in the future."

And what's good for the Germans may also be good for Israel. Kashtan believes that under the current system it will be very difficult for Israeli soccer to progress, so he is advocating a system whereby all the national teams - from the under-17s to the seniors - use the same training methods, the same fitness routines and the same dietary regiment. He is also proposing that all the national teams come under the responsibility of one uber-coach for the next five years.

Talking 'bout a revolution

Kashtan argues that if he were to be appointed overall coach of the national team for an extended period of time, he would be able to generate a real revolution in Israeli soccer at all age groups. Similarly, he is convinced that the Israel Football Association should take advantage of the fact that he is considered Israel's most successful coach and hand him the responsibility.

As overall coach of all the national teams, he would oversee training, decide on the style of play for each team and appoint the coaches who would work under him with the players.

"Wenger has been at Arsenal for 12 years," Kashtan explains, "and he has just signed a three-year contract extension despite the fact that Arsenal have not won anything in the past few years. People there respect the work he has done and the way he goes about his job. They don't judge him on one season's work."

According to Kashtan, retired players, no matter how good they were on the field, are not always good enough as coaches to get results with young players, and in order for Israel's various youth teams to make progress, their coaches must undergo proper training. Some of them, he adds, are living in the past in terms of system and tactics, while soccer itself has moved on.

"If the IFA decides to bring in a foreign coach, they can expect to pay something like 2 million euros for a two-year contract," Kashtan adds. "But even he, like everyone else, will only manage to get us close to the World Cup finals and close to the European Championships. It will cost us a small fortune and we will have nothing to show for it at the end of the day."

Kashtan is not keen to return to a coaching position with a Premier League club once his contract with the national team expires in 10 months. If he does not land his dream job, he will look for a position with a club in Europe. "Dror has already proved himself in Israeli soccer," says Sinai. "There is no one else on the scene with the ability to give Israeli soccer the push it needs. It's hard to create a revolution with so few days spent with the players, but if he is appointed overall manager of the national teams - and has the chance to see all the players at regular intervals, as happens in modern-thinking countries - he can get the results we all want."

The problem, however, is that if Israel fails to qualify for the 2010 World Cup finals, no one at the IFA will be in a hurry to extend the Kashtan-Sinai regime for the qualifying campaign for the next European Championships - never mind a five-year tenure.

In the meantime, the national team left for Northern Ireland yesterday morning, where it will play a friendly international ahead of its next World Cup qualifiers, at home to Latvia and Luxembourg next month.

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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old August 11th, 2009, 02:55 Thread Starter
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Interesting article to start with.

I mean there is room for Kashtan to continue with the National Team. Since every single time we had a new coach we started from scratch and replacing him, even with an international coach or say....Itzhak Shum wouldn't promise us a place in Euro 2012. However that being said, I think going and touring Arsenal training camp doesnt really add insult to injury..... Kashtan should have learnt from the best before trying to make it to the coaching job which he is.

To say that he can go to Europe at this time is a little late. He got a few good years left in him but he actually believes that if IFA closes the door on him and his 5 year revolution plan than he will be able to go to Chelsea-like team and take them to near-stardom like Grant had in the past.

So why would Sinai-Kashtan go to Germany and Austria and learn from the best just when we are near failure in our NT run for 2010?

He clearly stated that there should be training regiments being given to the whole NT from U17 to the Seniors..while he is very cautious to let anyone play..especially Ben Sahar who confused the Greeks completely...

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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old August 11th, 2009, 04:45
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i think we need to overlook this current campaign. I agree with kashtan on the fact that a revolution MUST occur, it can't be that every qualifying campaign we are always ALMOST in the tournament but flop in the end. I originally said that if israel don't qualify to the world cup of 2010 then they never will as this is just about as easy a group as they can get (come on! our first seeded team is GREECE! the easiest of all pot 1teams), but in fact that is a very stupid way of thinking. the truth is kashtan wants to create a revolution,a new manager (foreign or not) would be in the same position where he also would "almost" qualify to a tournament, obviously kashtan wants to invest, he needs to receive patience from fans and the IFA and let him try this revolution, worst case it is a utter fail, but its better than continiuos years of ALMOST qualifications...the responsiblity also must be put on israel club teams which need harsher physical training, and more united play..just as kashtan has learned from wenger. I hope he is given the time, and perhaps we must overlook this campaign even if it was a very disappointing one
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old August 11th, 2009, 06:04 Thread Starter
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We must try to have Kashtan use alot of strategy that was available in Grants days. Offer something lucrative to the players. Have training camps in the middle of the month so the team is more united....

Have an understanding for players not to ditch NT caps since people like Asoulin who is good and creates alot of eye turns in Spain will show others that NT is not important and that you can make a career if your good enough in age 15 in Europe.

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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old August 11th, 2009, 23:05
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Why didn't Kashtan do this at the beginning of his tenure? sounds like a bunch of hot air if you ask me, Kashtan is trying to cover up the fact that he is on the verge of screwing up our best chance to qualify for the world cup in a long time. Hes had four years to prove himself, I agree with his reccomendations about changing Israeli soccer, but I think they should bring in someone foreign to implement it, not Kashtan.
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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old August 12th, 2009, 02:04
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Why didn't Kashtan do this at the beginning of his tenure? sounds like a bunch of hot air if you ask me, Kashtan is trying to cover up the fact that he is on the verge of screwing up our best chance to qualify for the world cup in a long time. Hes had four years to prove himself, I agree with his reccomendations about changing Israeli soccer, but I think they should bring in someone foreign to implement it, not Kashtan.
Exactly. I back your words. Why only start when your contract is expiring? Why only talk about revolution in football after Israel is on the verge to lose of its best opportunities to qualify for a WC?

IMO, the "uber coach" issue wouldnīt work in Israel we would have a lot of relationship problems between the coaches.

Kashtan is trying to keep himself in the job in anyway and he knows that failure in this campaign is almost his passport to leave.
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old August 12th, 2009, 02:33 Thread Starter
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After the ifs and buts of everything...

Kashtan (as i said..) does have a point.
We need to unify our soccer in order to succeed.

Yea, he could have went 4 years ago and met Arsenal and learned their tricks.

He could also be covering up his weakness. He said that if he doesnt get a new 5 year contract in 10 months from now then he will go to Europe. What Europe? Russia? Bulgaria? Moldova? Dont kid yourself here. He made his mark in Israeli soccer, but this isnt Grant and im not sure who he knows in Europe.

With that being said, i think the major obstacle in his success for a good National Team lies on the youth. CrackedPleasure debated with me if Czech leauge is better than the Israeli one. I said it is. He said it isnt. I never rebutted it but the main reason why I think the Israeli leauge is much lower than the czech is primarily the training and the mentality that players have. Players in Israel play in a professional leauge but act amature. Many players are out of shape and many more and not 'fit' enough. This goes to the National Team and many players have this issue....

Another issue is soccer consistancy. Israel is a military society. You go to a mall and you see soldiers (not on shift ofcourse)...you go to the country and you see soliders..you listen on the radio and you hear soldiers. Israeli military society cuts sometimes into the fate of Israeli soccer players. We have seen many of them go down this path.
How can a professional player say to himself that today i finished the army..im 22 or 23 years old and im ready to start soccer.
Mind you that those 3 years he milked and didnt produce well and also didnt really keep a balance diet and a good soccer form.
How does someone build up from a 3 year hiatus.

Kashtan should have kept his ticket or atleast travelled not to see Arsenal in Austria but an Austrian team in Austria since many of their young players ARE required to do Army service..how does it succeed/fail them compared to Israels.

We cant have every player doing what Ben Sahar does or Guy Asuilin does...but we need to overcome it....
This unity string is only good for how strong it is. If the U19-U21 arent really responding well to it because of something they cant control than we dont really have a string now. We just got 2 strings and 1 for youth and 1 for seniors (or those who survived the trip from one string to the other).

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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old August 12th, 2009, 02:43 Thread Starter
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Also....

some things which i blamed the Israel NT for being in 4th place ahead of the last stretch to World Cup 2010.

Im not going to say we were cursed or had a bad luck...
but lets look at some things which created this tremendous failure in the first place.

1) Kashtans conservativeness
Kashtan is very conservative and was not quick to risk having Ben Sahar or a few other players play. He was keen on his side and his goal sometimes was to tie or not go go above the bench and get 3 points. I have said before that there hasnt really been A game for Israel which they had really full advantage in the tournament. All the games were mediocre. We tied in Latvia and didnt really do much damage in Moldova. We barely beat Switzerland at home and the game vs. Luxemborg was pretty much known ahead of time.

2) The gifts that we got...
We recieved not one but 2 gifts in our campaign and we didnt really....open it if you want to say it nicely.
the first gift was Switzerland losing to Luxemborg. That was ultimate. Our greatest enemy for 2nd losing such a measly match like that.
The second was Greece losing to Switzerland. All of a sudden we were in a high cause we had full throttle advantage for not only 2nd (for 'sure') but also 1st if we wanted to.
But we fumbled and tied Latvia cause we had those 2 gifts in our minds...

3) The Media
The Media has always been ass-holes to our NT. I remember the day of the draw for our group was unreal. Once it came out that it would be Israel, Swiss, Greece, Latvia, Moldova and Luxemborg in one group..immediately the media didnt talk about chances, but talked about the 40 years in the dessert and finally....looking at Johanesburg. Israelis already started to book plans for S. Africa and in the end of it all...we may fight our asses to get in..... and truthfully...if all else was equal today...this is our worst tournament since...1996!!!!

4) The Scheduling Hypocrisy.
As we know, scheduling the games are important. And its more important for our competitors to respect our holidays since some games fall on Rosh Hashana/Yom Kippur. This group had absolutely no respect for our holidays. I wouldnt say this group cause Switzerland and Greece were ok/couldnt care less, but Latvia and especially Moldovoa was a pain in the ass...
Moldova and Latvia basically had this proposition to Israel and the 2 countries and i guess also Luxemborg that agreed with our holiest days:
Either play it or play in the winter time when its -10 in Chisanu and -25 in Riga...
Nice choice?
So instead we went and played a double header game with Greece which was the worst mistake ever.
My hopes was playing Greece first and getting them out of the way and then having us play the rest..or even playing them now which isnt bad at all....
IN the end, the IFA agreed to play a team 72 hours again..which had the be the worst idea ever....not heard of..not even in the WC/EURO's if you were in the group stages and then met your group competitors in the quarter/semi's of the tournament...

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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old August 12th, 2009, 23:55
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Yeah Kappa you had good points here on both of your previous posts.

I will start with the the first one.
Of course we need to change because if we are out of a major tournament for 40 years is because we are doing something wrong. Too bad that the coaches in general only talk in making drastic changes and revolution on the mentality and trainings when they are about to be dismissed and to try and stick with the job they end up using it more like a political propaganda rather than any effectiveness.
And a prove of it, linking with another point you made, is that Kashtan is bluffing. He hasnīt the same contacts as Grant did and he might be succesful in Israeli football, but he is not very known abroad and if he does find a job in Europe he would do in a smaller league.

Regarding your comments on the current campaign, i agree with you on all issues.
Kashtan was way too conservative in many occasions in which we had the chance for a all win. His substitutions were predictable (If were losing or drawing he puts in a striker, but he takes another striker out, if we are winning he sacks a striker and puts a defensive midfielder) and not very effective. He depended more on the individual brilliance of the players like Ben Sahar and Benayoun to have something out of it.
The media also contributes for the pressure. They seem never to be satisfied and they never give peace for the NT to work. But this problem is not exclusive for Israel all the other big footballing countries in the world have the same issue the difference is that every 2 years they are in a major tournament and we arenīt.

And for conclusion. How can we renew the contract of the coach that pratically (unless a miracle happens) led Israel to another failure after receiving the so called "gifts". How can we be ranked 4th having Luxembourg beating the Swiss???
Ok, we played only twice at home until now, but guess what we canīt beat the strongest teams of the group at home, we continue to tie with them, so of course our chances get slimmer.

Just to add i donīt have nothing against Kashtan i really think he is trying his best and that he has all merits for the titles he won, but he is not working with the NT. And deep inside i really hope he proves me wrong and qualify us for the next years WC.
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old September 6th, 2009, 03:20
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Couldnīt hold myself, but after a result like this one.......this thread looks a bit out question
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old September 6th, 2009, 07:15 Thread Starter
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Couldnīt hold myself, but after a result like this one.......this thread looks a bit out question
Well lets bring Yarok-the Israeli Anti-fascist but astoundingly Anti-Arab mercenary to the thread...he seems to have a heart for Kashtan, maybe a fellatio or two after

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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old September 6th, 2009, 10:27
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old September 6th, 2009, 10:29
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We should keep him until the world Qualifications, then seek a replacement.
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old September 6th, 2009, 14:34
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unless the IFA is willing to pay huge bucks for an amazing foreign manager then I say keep him. He needs to learn, and he is learning. Some may argue that yossi and him will have bad vibes, but you know even with grant there were bad vibes betweent he manager and some of the players. There is no doubt that benayoun loves the NT and he is also a very easy going guy, he will forgive and forget very fast.

Again, give kashtan a chance to learn this team...
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old September 6th, 2009, 15:55 Thread Starter
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unless the IFA is willing to pay huge bucks for an amazing foreign manager then I say keep him. He needs to learn, and he is learning. Some may argue that yossi and him will have bad vibes, but you know even with grant there were bad vibes betweent he manager and some of the players. There is no doubt that benayoun loves the NT and he is also a very easy going guy, he will forgive and forget very fast.

Again, give kashtan a chance to learn this team...
Who did Grant dismiss?
Tal Banin?
Avi Nimny?
Berkovic?
Revivo?
Keisi?

They were already 32 coming into the Slovenia-Israel game.

You wanted a birth in the playoffs and neilsen gave u that.....
so why not get a foreigner who can make up a good team and put decent players together?

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post #16 of 21 (permalink) Old September 6th, 2009, 18:25
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It is not something personal against Kashtan, he had his merits to earn the job at the NT and the fact he failed to qualify doesnīt mean that he is garbage. Maybe he is the type of coach that works mainly for clubs on a rigid tactic form and that must be repeatedly trained.
If we analyse his biggest conquests as a coach all his team played in a well trained and rigid format and like Yarok said he doesnīt have time.
Maybe for a NT we need not only a tactical man, but also a coach that knows how to motivate their players.
IMO, Grant has this more than Kashtan, the fact Israel always managed to comeback from deficit situations showed that in terms of mentality the team didnīt simply collapsed like we did against Latvia.

There is also the criteria issue, here goes some points:

- He didnīt call up Yaniv Katan for two years alleging he wasnīt a good element for the group and all of sudden not only he calls him, but starts with him

- Yuval Spungin hasnīt been called up since the Euro 2008 qualifiers and suddenly appears on the team and starts the game.

- Tamir Cohen was left out from the squad for these games and was called up because of Yadinīs injury and then is enters game in the second half being a first option than other players that were previously called up.

- From the three Lokeren players called for the NT, the only one who is currently having playing time in Belgium is Yoav Ziv, exactly the only one who didnīt start yesterday.

- Roberto Collauti was called during most of the campaign while he was a bench player at Monchengladbach. Now that he is a starter, receiving playing time and in better form he is left out the squad.

- Sahar has been the great technical player for Israel in these qualifiers and he hasnīt managed to start a game (maybe just one).

- Needing to win he sacks the player that could change the game, Yossi Benayoun (he didnīt have a good game, but who in Israel had a good game yesterday?)

I have only mentioned the criteria used for this game against Latvia.

So this shows that during the campaign the pressure has made him take some dubious decisions and this lack of criteria also leaves the players without orientation.
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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old September 7th, 2009, 00:39
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Originally Posted by Kappa21 View Post
Who did Grant dismiss?
Tal Banin?
Avi Nimny?
Berkovic?
Revivo?
Keisi?

They were already 32 coming into the Slovenia-Israel game.

You wanted a birth in the playoffs and neilsen gave u that.....
so why not get a foreigner who can make up a good team and put decent players together?
hey, if we're willing to pay big money for a good foreing coach then i'm all in on giving kashtan the boot for that, but if its just to replace him with another israeli coach with the same "professionalism" then i just prefer he stay.
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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old September 7th, 2009, 00:43
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It is not something personal against Kashtan, he had his merits to earn the job at the NT and the fact he failed to qualify doesnīt mean that he is garbage. Maybe he is the type of coach that works mainly for clubs on a rigid tactic form and that must be repeatedly trained.
If we analyse his biggest conquests as a coach all his team played in a well trained and rigid format and like Yarok said he doesnīt have time.
Maybe for a NT we need not only a tactical man, but also a coach that knows how to motivate their players.
IMO, Grant has this more than Kashtan, the fact Israel always managed to comeback from deficit situations showed that in terms of mentality the team didnīt simply collapsed like we did against Latvia.

There is also the criteria issue, here goes some points:

- He didnīt call up Yaniv Katan for two years alleging he wasnīt a good element for the group and all of sudden not only he calls him, but starts with him

- Yuval Spungin hasnīt been called up since the Euro 2008 qualifiers and suddenly appears on the team and starts the game.

- Tamir Cohen was left out from the squad for these games and was called up because of Yadinīs injury and then is enters game in the second half being a first option than other players that were previously called up.

- From the three Lokeren players called for the NT, the only one who is currently having playing time in Belgium is Yoav Ziv, exactly the only one who didnīt start yesterday.

- Roberto Collauti was called during most of the campaign while he was a bench player at Monchengladbach. Now that he is a starter, receiving playing time and in better form he is left out the squad.

- Sahar has been the great technical player for Israel in these qualifiers and he hasnīt managed to start a game (maybe just one).

- Needing to win he sacks the player that could change the game, Yossi Benayoun (he didnīt have a good game, but who in Israel had a good game yesterday?)

I have only mentioned the criteria used for this game against Latvia.

So this shows that during the campaign the pressure has made him take some dubious decisions and this lack of criteria also leaves the players without orientation.

politics in my opinon? wasn't this the same with grant, don't you re-call grant not calling up balili when balili was at his prime...and he was scoring goals like a madman yet grant didn't call him up...there is always politics...its israel
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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old September 7th, 2009, 05:13
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I'd rather have a headless chicken as our coach then Kashtan.

He fails to grasp any type of comprehensibility when it comes to match importance, motivation, tactics and strategies.

He is a terrible coach with terrible decision making skills. Yes we can blame the players and partly, it is there fault, but it all starts and ends with the coach.
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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old September 7th, 2009, 05:18
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politics in my opinon? wasn't this the same with grant, don't you re-call grant not calling up balili when balili was at his prime...and he was scoring goals like a madman yet grant didn't call him up...there is always politics...its israel
Could be a bit of politics indeed. But i believe the major part of it is the pressure issue.
During the Euro 2008 qualifiers we had a decent campaign, had good games and Kashtan wasnīt too much criticized, but when we received this group and saw a high possibility of qualifying, than things changed.
Media, fans, Avi Luzon and even the players were putting pressure on Kashtan.
This really took a lot of energy of him and he couldnīt focus 100% on what he was called to do.
Then he used politics like you say to please and clam down part of the critics to make him feel more comfortable, like for example calling Yaniv Katan which is a pure example of it.
Kashtan said he wouldnīt call up Katan not for technical reasons, but because he rather didnīt like to work with him, but ended up needing to bring him on the squad.
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