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post #1 of 115 (permalink) Old March 16th, 2019, 11:14 Thread Starter
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The Chirstchurch Shooter

Just before he did his deed he spent one week in Bulgaria, for a round trip of all nationalist-inspiring places such as Shipka, old capital Veliko Turnovo, the Rila Monastery... Then, he was reportedly listening to Serbian war chants (praising Milosevic etc.) during the shooting...

Seriously, what is so wrong with our little damned corner of the world
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post #2 of 115 (permalink) Old March 16th, 2019, 11:29
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I was just thinking that there hasn't been a thread about this yet and thought it was most likely because Andy Christ is busy.

My thoughts on the incident.

1. RIP to all the victims. I can't imagine what their families are going through.

2. This is a great argument for the death penalty. It appears this scumbag has gamed the system to get lots of attention, knowing he'll be out in 27 years as a celebrity of sorts.

3. As I've said before, there needs to be a serious rethink as to how the media approaches acts of terrorism. My theory (which I'm guessing can be borne out by studies) is that sensationalist coverage incites copycat acts. This certainly seems to be the case here since Breivik is cited as some kind of model for this fellow. And he released a similar manifesto as well, seemingly well knowing that it would form part of his legend. In cases of Islamic terrorism, past acts seem to inspire later acts as well.

I think coverage should focus more on discussion regarding actions taken by law enforcement, heroic actions by law enforcement/civilians and how to best improve security. Regarding the perp, there should be quick condemnation without dwelling on or fleshing out his character and life. The killer should never be made famous, imo.
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post #3 of 115 (permalink) Old March 16th, 2019, 11:44
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A horrible tragedy in my second homeland, my heart goes out to all victims and their loved ones.

The media is playing right into the hands of this deranged lunatic, like he predicted. Sad.
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And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!
Rudyard Kipling
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post #4 of 115 (permalink) Old March 16th, 2019, 12:01 Thread Starter
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Yes, media coverage is scandalous, but you know that's a bit of wishful thinking to take the goods away from the commercial media. Sensation is always the bestseller. And censorship does not work in the open world.
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post #5 of 115 (permalink) Old March 16th, 2019, 12:13
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Originally Posted by Beaux Balkans View Post
Yes, media coverage is scandalous, but you know that's a bit of wishful thinking to take the goods away from the commercial media. Sensation is always the bestseller. And censorship does not work in the open world.
Definitely true, the media will always pursue their commercial and political interests, it's up to the public at large to discern between clickbait, fakenews, stirring the pot of political divide, shoddy conclusions, political bias and activism masquerading as journalism as opposed to unbiased reporting of facts.

That's very difficult to swallow, the kneejerk reaction is more laws, especially for those who see government repression of rights as the only solution to almost any problem. But then again, trust in the MSM is plummeting which is encouraging.


And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!
Rudyard Kipling
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post #6 of 115 (permalink) Old March 16th, 2019, 12:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaux Balkans View Post
Yes, media coverage is scandalous, but you know that's a bit of wishful thinking to take the goods away from the commercial media. Sensation is always the bestseller. And censorship does not work in the open world.
Here's how I see it:

Incitement of violence is already a well-established crime in many developed jurisdictions. We don't regard that kind of speech as being protected. If it can be proven (by concrete studies) that a foreseeable effect of sensationalist writing about terrorist killers leads to others looking to emulate them, then I think a good case can be made for incitement of further violence by the media. And it would actually lead to many lives being saved from horrible deaths.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob W The Bat View Post
These last years after the CL win I noticed when following the Inter online community that many fans have turned into cvcksuckers.
R.I.P: Tazzy, Flo.
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post #7 of 115 (permalink) Old March 16th, 2019, 14:04
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RIP to the victims.

Islamophobia, xenophobia and extreme nationalism are rampant views on social media and there are many political parties that incite it directly or implicitly condone it globally. Goes beyond glorification of the perpetrator imo, by news media, or live streaming availability, which of course are problematic as well. Also, New Zealand Prime Minister commented on gun control laws in NZ which seems worth looking into.
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post #8 of 115 (permalink) Old March 16th, 2019, 14:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camelface View Post
Islamophobia, xenophobia and extreme nationalism are rampant views on social media and there are many political parties that incite it directly or implicitly condone it globally. Goes beyond glorification of the perpetrator imo, by news media, or live streaming availability, which of course are problematic as well. Also, New Zealand Prime Minister commented on gun control laws in NZ which seems worth looking into.
So censor the political parties? How?

My proposal is firstly tied to an actual benchmark which constitutes a well-established crime. Secondly, it would work not just for white supremacists but also for Islamic terrorism, school shootings, serial killers, etc.

I'm suggesting an actual solution while you're engaging in airy fairy, nebulous rhetoric. Piss or get off the pot.
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Originally Posted by Bob W The Bat View Post
These last years after the CL win I noticed when following the Inter online community that many fans have turned into cvcksuckers.
R.I.P: Tazzy, Flo.
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post #9 of 115 (permalink) Old March 16th, 2019, 14:34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camelface View Post
RIP to the victims.

Islamophobia, xenophobia and extreme nationalism are rampant views on social media and there are many political parties that incite it directly or implicitly condone it globally. Goes beyond glorification of the perpetrator imo, by news media, or live streaming availability, which of course are problematic as well. Also, New Zealand Prime Minister commented on gun control laws in NZ which seems worth looking into.
When Christians are slaughtered all over the world, are you calling out Christianophobia?

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post #10 of 115 (permalink) Old March 16th, 2019, 15:09
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boban did nothing wrong

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post #11 of 115 (permalink) Old March 16th, 2019, 15:32
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So censor the political parties? How?

My proposal is firstly tied to an actual benchmark which constitutes a well-established crime. Secondly, it would work not just for white supremacists but also for Islamic terrorism, school shootings, serial killers, etc.

I'm suggesting an actual solution while you're engaging in airy fairy, nebulous rhetoric. Piss or get off the pot.
I like your solution to go with established crimes. I didn't suggest to censor the parties but I think it's high time mainstream xenophobia gets called out. I don't see what airy fairy about this.

What is the incitement of violence crime? How would it apply to the media and how could it apply to condoning politicians?
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post #12 of 115 (permalink) Old March 16th, 2019, 15:59
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RIP to the victims in this tragedy. Peace and strength for the survivors and the families of these victims.

May the shooter burn in hell.

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post #13 of 115 (permalink) Old March 16th, 2019, 15:59
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Rest in peace to all the victims

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post #14 of 115 (permalink) Old March 17th, 2019, 21:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camelface View Post
I like your solution to go with established crimes. I didn't suggest to censor the parties but I think it's high time mainstream xenophobia gets called out. I don't see what airy fairy about this.

What is the incitement of violence crime? How would it apply to the media and how could it apply to condoning politicians?
See? You can ask excellent questions and see the heart of the issue when you want to.

Incitement of violence would be, for example, someone calling for everyone to harm any Seventh Day Adventist they see. I understand the test in the US is a call for imminent violence.

For the rest, there isn't an easy answer.

As I said, it should apply to the media only in respect of crimes such as terrorism and mass shootings (if there's any difference). It would require an expansion of sorts in terms of the law since the news articles wouldn't ordinarily fall into the above definition of incitement based on the fact that the articles do not call for violence explicitly and therefore intent cannot be inferred therefrom. However, depending on the outcome of robust studies, the articles may well fulfil the "action" aspect of the crime (i.e. they have the significant effect of encouraging further crimes). This is a huge starting point. My point is that, if the media was put on notice and informed of these studies, then they would have the knowledge that their sensationalism has the effect of encouraging further terrorist acts. The broad mental component can then be regarded as being satisfied. Put another way, while intent is required for incitement, the requirement for the media would be modified to knowledge (with the studies providing the strong justification for this; hence the need for the studies to be robust).

I would not change the law with respect to politicians or any other person because speech is extremely wide. They would be subject to existing laws for incitement. It would work for the media (subject to the studies I mentioned) because of the effect the standard sensationalist reporting would have been shown to produce. Further, it would be confined to specific crimes such as terrorism. We have to be careful and not overhanded. For other crimes, the existing laws relating to incitement would continue to apply.

Regarding the censorship argument, it's valid but I don't think it's very impactful. Why? Well, the core speech that freedom of speech seeks to protect is political speech, criticism of the government or power structures and the like. In this case, the reporters can still report basic facts regarding the crime. I also don't think that turning the perp into a celebrity is something that is anywhere remotely near that core. Second, the trade-off for sacrificing that aspect (which, let's face it, doesn't benefit the public in any meaningful way) is huge because of the number of lives that will actually be saved.

It appears that there are some existing viewpoints and studies which support the cause-effect view of the media sensationalism:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/growi...123119780.html

Quote:
Criminologists who study mass shootings say the vast majority of shooters are seeking infamy and soak up the coverage as a guide.

Just four days after the 2017 Las Vegas concert shooting, which stands as the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history, Lankford published a paper urging journalists to refrain from using shooters' names or going into exhaustive detail about their crimes.
Quote:
Skaggs said he is "somewhat sympathetic to journalists' impulse to cover clearly important and newsworthy events and to get at the truth. ... But there's a balance that can be struck between ensuring the public has enough information ... and not giving undue attention to perpetrators of heinous acts."

Studies show a contagion effect from coverage of both homicides and suicides.
Quote:
James Alan Fox, a professor at Northeastern University who has studied mass shootings, said naming shooters is not the problem. Instead, he blamed over-the-top coverage that includes irrelevant details about the killers, such as their writings and their backgrounds, that "unnecessarily humanizes them."
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob W The Bat View Post
These last years after the CL win I noticed when following the Inter online community that many fans have turned into cvcksuckers.
R.I.P: Tazzy, Flo.
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post #15 of 115 (permalink) Old March 17th, 2019, 21:50
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I like your solution to go with established crimes. I didn't suggest to censor the parties but I think it's high time mainstream xenophobia gets called out. I don't see what airy fairy about this.
We can start with airy fairy definitions of "xenophobia", then airy fairy definitions of "racism" and "islamophobia". Then we can ask the main question, who decides?

Often the definitions of these terms are arbitrary and the net is cast so wide that any criticism is met with calls for the State to censor speech and criminalise expression.

This is a bigger threat to Western society than white supremacists and Islamist terrorists combined.
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And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!
Rudyard Kipling
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post #16 of 115 (permalink) Old March 17th, 2019, 22:57
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Three-year-old Mucad Ibrahim is the youngest known victim of the attacks.

If no other reporting existed on Trump/Russia, the fact that the FBI started a CI investigation to determine whether or not the sitting president of the US was either comprised by or an agent of Russia, it would be the biggest political story...ever.

Soros is very, very rich and funds every SJW-cause imaginable. Those are facts, not a conspiracy.

I agree with him that this was a total setup
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post #17 of 115 (permalink) Old March 17th, 2019, 23:15
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I don't care who does things like this. White nationalist terrorists, ISIS terrorists, Drug Cartel terrorists, etc etc. I just want them dead. If you kill innocents you forfeit your right to life. You and anyone that helped you.
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post #18 of 115 (permalink) Old March 18th, 2019, 14:01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Firdaus View Post
See? You can ask excellent questions and see the heart of the issue when you want to.

Incitement of violence would be, for example, someone calling for everyone to harm any Seventh Day Adventist they see. I understand the test in the US is a call for imminent violence.

For the rest, there isn't an easy answer.

As I said, it should apply to the media only in respect of crimes such as terrorism and mass shootings (if there's any difference). It would require an expansion of sorts in terms of the law since the news articles wouldn't ordinarily fall into the above definition of incitement based on the fact that the articles do not call for violence explicitly and therefore intent cannot be inferred therefrom. However, depending on the outcome of robust studies, the articles may well fulfil the "action" aspect of the crime (i.e. they have the significant effect of encouraging further crimes). This is a huge starting point. My point is that, if the media was put on notice and informed of these studies, then they would have the knowledge that their sensationalism has the effect of encouraging further terrorist acts. The broad mental component can then be regarded as being satisfied. Put another way, while intent is required for incitement, the requirement for the media would be modified to knowledge (with the studies providing the strong justification for this; hence the need for the studies to be robust).

I would not change the law with respect to politicians or any other person because speech is extremely wide. They would be subject to existing laws for incitement. It would work for the media (subject to the studies I mentioned) because of the effect the standard sensationalist reporting would have been shown to produce. Further, it would be confined to specific crimes such as terrorism. We have to be careful and not overhanded. For other crimes, the existing laws relating to incitement would continue to apply.

Regarding the censorship argument, it's valid but I don't think it's very impactful. Why? Well, the core speech that freedom of speech seeks to protect is political speech, criticism of the government or power structures and the like. In this case, the reporters can still report basic facts regarding the crime. I also don't think that turning the perp into a celebrity is something that is anywhere remotely near that core. Second, the trade-off for sacrificing that aspect (which, let's face it, doesn't benefit the public in any meaningful way) is huge because of the number of lives that will actually be saved.

It appears that there are some existing viewpoints and studies which support the cause-effect view of the media sensationalism:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/growi...123119780.html
That's cool but if you are modifying a law, why only as it affects the media and not also politicians? Many news media are already engaging in policies of not publishing videos and names of perpetrators, nor their manifestos.

What would you say about trump implicitly condoning messages of hate toward immigrants? Does it deserve a law like for the media given it's arguably more influential than the media is, or are people in the storm front (and those outside like yourself) going to call him (Le pen, etc) out?
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post #19 of 115 (permalink) Old March 18th, 2019, 14:44
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What would you say about trump implicitly condoning messages of hate toward immigrants?
This is exactly why free speech is paramount to a free and open society, who decides what "messages of hate" are? You?

God forbid.


And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!
Rudyard Kipling
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post #20 of 115 (permalink) Old March 18th, 2019, 14:53
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Of course he is the moral arbiter of all that is good and evil

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