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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2018, 16:04 Thread Starter
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The Future of EE Football?

No regional leagues. No relegation/promotion but a closed system based on the north American sporting model.

I've been reading up on what's happening with the Indian football leagues -- attracting/retaining talent, sponsorships, academy development, attendance, sustainability, etc.


https://www.footballbenchmark.com/th...ndian_football


On first read, it comes across as heretical but then starts to make sense for smaller, struggling leagues. The north American sports model is entirely a socialist constuct -- something EE's have plenty of experience with and could embrace again 😄

Curious to know everyone's thoughts on a closed system in EE countries.

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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2018, 16:24
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You are a dreamer, Sarma.

And btw, the American sporting model is not a socialist construct - just the opposite. AFAIK, it is a very well structured league business model based on equity participation and strict observance of applicable laws and regulations by its shareholders (franchise rights, tv and advertising rights allocation, good standing guarantees etc etc). While the essence of WWE futbol is cheating, stealing and rigging. I just cant see Zdravko, Grisha (CSKA-Sofia owner) and Gigi as equity partners in one and the same league. There is only one lion in the jungle
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2018, 18:15 Thread Starter
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You are a dreamer, Sarma.

And btw, the American sporting model is not a socialist construct - just the opposite. AFAIK, it is a very well structured league business model based on equity participation and strict observance of applicable laws and regulations by its shareholders (franchise rights, tv and advertising rights allocation, good standing guarantees etc etc). While the essence of WWE futbol is cheating, stealing and rigging. I just cant see Zdravko, Grisha (CSKA-Sofia owner) and Gigi as equity partners in one and the same league. There is only one lion in the jungle [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.xtratime.org/forum/images/smilies/originals/rastgele.gif[/IMG]
Salary caps to limit power (wealth), luxury taxes as punishment, revenue distribution, draft pick order to reward the poor/knee-cap the successful, limit competiton in markets, powerful league commissioners, strong unions, etc.

North American sport leagues are based on parity; "monopolies of equality". They are socialist.
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2018, 18:17
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No relegation/promotion -> Bullshit
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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2018, 18:48
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Salary caps to limit power (wealth), luxury taxes as punishment, revenue distribution, draft pick order to reward the poor/knee-cap the successful, limit competiton in markets, powerful league commissioners, strong unions, etc.

North American sport leagues are based on parity; "monopolies of equality". They are socialist.
Now, you are mixing up things. How is a league organized as a corporation with the franchises being its shareholders a monopoly in the market? Anyone is free to join whichever league they please. Absolute free competition between leagues in the market. But once you become a shareholder you must obey the rules (By-laws). There is no law prohibiting restricting economic competition between the units of an economic unity; they all have a common economic goal as a corporation (league) - being lucrative.

As regards the measures which you claim are restrictive on the richer/more successful franchises, those actually help promoting sporting competition inside the league >> more equal teams (in sporting terms) >> more unpredictable match outcomes >> more interesting to the public >> more money from tv/ads.

It's a good model. But (on FIFA example) world sports are heavily monopolized ON THE LEAGUE LEVEL, and creating an autonomous league following the American model looks like a tough thing to do. And you still have Wikileaks spying on you, the Secret Service of Signor Infantino
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2018, 19:31 Thread Starter
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Salary caps to limit power (wealth), luxury taxes as punishment, revenue distribution, draft pick order to reward the poor/knee-cap the successful, limit competiton in markets, powerful league commissioners, strong unions, etc.

North American sport leagues are based on parity; "monopolies of equality". They are socialist.
Now, you are mixing up things. How is a league organized as a corporation with the franchises being its shareholders a monopoly in the market? Anyone is free to join whichever league they please. Absolute free competition between leagues in the market. But once you become a shareholder you must obey the rules (By-laws). There is no law prohibiting restricting economic competition between the units of an economic unity; they all have a common economic goal as a corporation (league) - being lucrative.

As regards the measures which you claim are restrictive on the richer/more successful franchises, those actually help promoting sporting competition inside the league >> more equal teams (in sporting terms) >> more unpredictable match outcomes >> more interesting to the public >> more money from tv/ads.

It's a good model. But (on FIFA example) world sports are heavily monopolized ON THE LEAGUE LEVEL, and creating an autonomous league following the American model looks like a tough thing to do. And you still have Wikileaks spying on you, the Secret Service of Signor Infantino [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.xtratime.org/forum/images/smilies/originals/nono.gif[/IMG]
As a franchisee, you're dictated as to what you may/may not do -- you're strictly regulated. Competiton amongst markets is regulated ex. a second NHL team in Toronto will never happen; extreme prohibition on places such as Hamilton entering the market. Promotion/regulation only occurs at the player level (AHL<>NHL) -- sort of like promoting individual politicians whilst maintaining the sole political party at the top.

I don't look at the NFL as a "corporation" rather more as a trade group (I don't know anything about its actual governance). But I do know league profits are distributed equally amongst all members -- which doesn't happen in a free market because shareholders are not equal ex. Oakland cannot have more shares or voting rights in the corporation.

Many people seek after what they do not possess and are thus enslaved by the very things they want to acquire...because "precondition of that subjunctive". - Ivica LeFondre
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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2018, 19:40
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lucrativity or any market based business model doesn‘t seem like a possible option for EE foci

plus the no relegation/promotion would make 90% of the games rather pointless

neither our Oligarchos nor the fans would appreciate that
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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2018, 20:09 Thread Starter
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lucrativity or any market based business model doesn‘t seem like a possible option for EE foci

plus the no relegation/promotion would make 90% of the games rather pointless

neither our Oligarchos nor the fans would appreciate that
We're stuck in the relegation/promotion paradigm. Speaking on Serbian football -- having to play on cow patch fields with 400 spectators doesn't help the league in any way. And if you're not within top leaderboard points as at week 10 in football -- aren't most European leagues pointless?


While I'm not a proponent of the north American systems, I don't know what other viable options exist for strengthening EE Football. I hate that people are resigned to never seeing an EE Champions League winner again. Or that I have to sit through a league of six Beograd area teams. Or that league power is concentrated between one or two teams.

Many people seek after what they do not possess and are thus enslaved by the very things they want to acquire...because "precondition of that subjunctive". - Ivica LeFondre
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2018, 20:32
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Isn't salary cap 'banned' by EU law anyway?

The thing with American sports if they can easily make up rules as they go, even FIFA essentially keeps their hands off MLS for some reason despite the number of gimmicks they had in their early days. There are some pro/rel zealots here in the US (obviously 0.000001% of the population) who claim there are FIFA statutes requiring pro/rel, even if there was, I doubt FIFA would bother the USSF too much
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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2018, 21:01
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We're stuck in the relegation/promotion paradigm. Speaking on Serbian football -- having to play on cow patch fields with 400 spectators doesn't help the league in any way. And if you're not within top leaderboard points as at week 10 in football -- aren't most European leagues pointless?


While I'm not a proponent of the north American systems, I don't know what other viable options exist for strengthening EE Football. I hate that people are resigned to never seeing an EE Champions League winner again. Or that I have to sit through a league of six Beograd area teams. Or that league power is concentrated between one or two teams.
I wouldn‘t say it‘s pointless if you after week 10 have to fight against relegation or in Div2 for promotion. if you don‘t have that motivation it seems pointless to me. my club was relegated and bouncing back a couple of times the last years, nothing wrong with that, the thought that they‘d be stuck in NB2 forever though would be a depressing one.

and the geography and demographics of our EE countries make it logical that there are a good number of capital area clubs competing with some village clubs on cow fields.

however, the building of modern arenas in our village teams didn‘t help improve the quality of the foci one bit
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2018, 21:21
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Originally Posted by Sarma Police View Post
As a franchisee, you're dictated as to what you may/may not do -- you're strictly regulated. Competiton amongst markets is regulated ex. a second NHL team in Toronto will never happen; extreme prohibition on places such as Hamilton entering the market. Promotion/regulation only occurs at the player level (AHL<>NHL) -- sort of like promoting individual politicians whilst maintaining the sole political party at the top.
It is quite obvious why a league would restrict the number of teams from a certain geographical area. In view of the limited number of franchises they'd have larger client base if potential fan base of the franchises do not overlap. Again, it is a restriction inside the league; you are free to make your own Sarma Hockey League (SHL) and compete with the NHL . And if you are successful enough your franchises will get rich soon and attract talent from the minor leagues.

I am not sure how this AHL/NHL movement of players works - is there some kind of exclusivity arrangement for player exchange between them? If so then then they might restrict competition (speaking in economic/legal terms).

Quote:
I don't look at the NFL as a "corporation" rather more as a trade group (I don't know anything about its actual governance). But I do know league profits are distributed equally amongst all members -- which doesn't happen in a free market because shareholders are not equal ex. Oakland cannot have more shares or voting rights in the corporation.
Oakland can gtfo if they don't like the big money of Mr. Goodell.

Although you definitely have a point - how come such obvious cartels the US major leagues are got cleared by the FTC? I guess, the FTC believes the franchises are not independent economic entities. Should read a bit about that.

Last edited by Beaux Balkans; November 27th, 2018 at 21:27.
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2018, 21:41
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AHL is the highest level of minor league for NHL. Basically each NHL team has one AHL affiliate and you can call-up/send down players at any point in the season based on injuries/suspensions/performance etc...However there are some protections for established NHL players, not to get too bogged down on union rules but if a player is a veteran they can't just simply send him down to the minor leagues, he will have to go through something called 'waivers' which he basically becomes a free agent and is able to get picked up by anybody

If there's one thing European sports definitely need to pick up from American sports is the transparency of the contracts/wages. You pretty much know every players' wage/contract, however that will open up a can of worms in Europe with the agent fees and where this money is really going
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2018, 22:02 Thread Starter
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We're stuck in the relegation/promotion paradigm. Speaking on Serbian football -- having to play on cow patch fields with 400 spectators doesn't help the league in any way. And if you're not within top leaderboard points as at week 10 in football -- aren't most European leagues pointless?


While I'm not a proponent of the north American systems, I don't know what other viable options exist for strengthening EE Football. I hate that people are resigned to never seeing an EE Champions League winner again. Or that I have to sit through a league of six Beograd area teams. Or that league power is concentrated between one or two teams.
I wouldn‘t say it‘s pointless if you after week 10 have to fight against relegation or in Div2 for promotion. if you don‘t have that motivation it seems pointless to me. my club was relegated and bouncing back a couple of times the last years, nothing wrong with that, the thought that they‘d be stuck in NB2 forever though would be a depressing one.

and the geography and demographics of our EE countries make it logical that there are a good number of capital area clubs competing with some village clubs on cow fields.

however, the building of modern arenas in our village teams didn‘t help improve the quality of the foci one bit [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.xtratime.org/forum/images/smilies/originals/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
I'm looking for alternatives. EE can't compete. Our better players always leave, and there's s*it motivation to get people/families out to watch games.

Obviously, I understand the relegation/promotion system. But by week 10 (ideally), if your club isnt performing well -- then it's a struggle to not be the 2-3 sh*test clubs in the league. So, you have to wonder year in/year out -- what is your motivation is not to be the sh*test 2-3 clubs in the league?

This system work if you're an Everton but not a Backa Backa Palanka. Whats the point of bouncing back and forth between leagues (1,2,3, regional)?

Many people seek after what they do not possess and are thus enslaved by the very things they want to acquire...because "precondition of that subjunctive". - Ivica LeFondre
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2018, 22:18
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I'm looking for alternatives. EE can't compete. Our better players always leave, and there's s*it motivation to get people/families out to watch games.

Obviously, I understand the relegation/promotion system. But by week 10 (ideally), if your club isnt performing well -- then it's a struggle to not be the 2-3 sh*test clubs in the league. So, you have to wonder year in/year out -- what is your motivation is not to be the sh*test 2-3 clubs in the league?

This system work if you're an Everton but not a Backa Backa Palanka. Whats the point of bouncing back and forth between leagues (1,2,3, regional)?
fair enough. but I don‘t see any possible scenario in which EE foci can be competitive in our lifetimes. not with a regional league, not with a USA league system, not with ultramodern arenas in Bačka Palanka...

gotta stick with the hope my team doesn‘t relegate again in front of 800 spectators and maybe one day makes more than 1 quali round in Europa Liga
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old November 27th, 2018, 23:11 Thread Starter
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I'm looking for alternatives. EE can't compete. Our better players always leave, and there's s*it motivation to get people/families out to watch games.

Obviously, I understand the relegation/promotion system. But by week 10 (ideally), if your club isnt performing well -- then it's a struggle to not be the 2-3 sh*test clubs in the league. So, you have to wonder year in/year out -- what is your motivation is not to be the sh*test 2-3 clubs in the league?

This system work if you're an Everton but not a Backa Backa Palanka. Whats the point of bouncing back and forth between leagues (1,2,3, regional)?
fair enough. but I don‘t see any possible scenario in which EE foci can be competitive in our lifetimes. not with a regional league, not with a USA league system, not with ultramodern arenas in Bačka Palanka...

gotta stick with the hope my team doesn‘t relegate again in front of 800 spectators and maybe one day makes more than 1 quali round in Europa Liga [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.xtratime.org/forum/images/smilies/originals/smile.gif[/IMG]
I'm probably too idealistic. Of course, FIFA/UEFA have no interest in bettering smaller European leagues. They'd rather a Real or Manchester do the annual half squad tour of Middle East-Asia to net the Association(s) a cool €5M+ for doing nothing.

Many people seek after what they do not possess and are thus enslaved by the very things they want to acquire...because "precondition of that subjunctive". - Ivica LeFondre
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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old November 28th, 2018, 00:15 Thread Starter
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AHL is the highest level of minor league for NHL. Basically each NHL team has one AHL affiliate and you can call-up/send down players at any point in the season based on injuries/suspensions/performance etc...However there are some protections for established NHL players, not to get too bogged down on union rules but if a player is a veteran they can't just simply send him down to the minor leagues, he will have to go through something called 'waivers' which he basically becomes a free agent and is able to get picked up by anybody

If there's one thing European sports definitely need to pick up from American sports is the transparency of the contracts/wages. You pretty much know every players' wage/contract, however that will open up a can of worms in Europe with the agent fees and where this money is really going [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.xtratime.org/forum/images/smilies/originals/lala.gif[/IMG]
I've taken my children to NHL, OHL, AHL, and...ECHL games this year. Of course, i have zero problems with people earning an income playing a sport...but to charge $25 for what's really shinny hockey (Adirondack Thunder) -- is fckn ridiculous. Only thing worse was watching Irish league football where 70% of the professional footballers were primary school teachers, fire fighters, and retired fly-fishermen.

Many people seek after what they do not possess and are thus enslaved by the very things they want to acquire...because "precondition of that subjunctive". - Ivica LeFondre
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old November 28th, 2018, 06:26
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bruh, in this capitalistic parasitic world we live in a salary cap won't make any noticeable difference. The best Serbian and Croatian players are still going abroad (and there are a lot of good Cro and Serb players) and going abroad early because they can't get paid at home.

Countries like Russia and Ukraine with their vast resources can dish out some cash and form a decent league despite having a weaker talent pool than Croatia and Serbia as has been shown.

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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old November 28th, 2018, 11:22
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I've taken my children to NHL, OHL, AHL, and...ECHL games this year. Of course, i have zero problems with people earning an income playing a sport...but to charge $25 for what's really shinny hockey (Adirondack Thunder) -- is fckn ridiculous. Only thing worse was watching Irish league football where 70% of the professional footballers were primary school teachers, fire fighters, and retired fly-fishermen.
Yeah I go to a lot of minor league baseball games (Lakewood Blueclaws specifically which is like 30 mins away) and even those prices are going up. They are a Single-A team (lowest level full season in the minor league chain) and tickets are $13 with parking at $5. Overall its not terrible of course but I think it will keep going up and up as parking used to be $2 and tickets under $10 when they first came around. Concessions are no better. The positive is however all the seats are very good, equivalent to sitting field level at all MLB ballparks for fraction of the price but you are essentially watching 18-21 year olds player so the quality isn't the best, I went to one game this season where literally there were 2-3 dropped fly balls

Though there is some "joy" when 4-5 years down the line at best 2-3 of those guys make the MLB and you can say you saw them play in their first year of MiLB
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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old November 28th, 2018, 12:06
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bruh, in this capitalistic parasitic world we live in a salary cap won't make any noticeable difference. The best Serbian and Croatian players are still going abroad (and there are a lot of good Cro and Serb players) and going abroad early because they can't get paid at home.

Countries like Russia and Ukraine with their vast resources can dish out some cash and form a decent league despite having a weaker talent pool than Croatia and Serbia as has been shown.
Way bigger populations in Ukraine and Russia though to help support the league. Still doesn't translate into any quality players like Croatia and Serbia (Ante throws out a bone to his friends to the east in keeping with the Christmas season )...why you ask?

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Last edited by Ante; November 28th, 2018 at 12:16.
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old November 28th, 2018, 13:38 Thread Starter
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[.
It is quite obvious why a league would restrict the number of teams from a certain geographical area. In view of the limited number of franchises they'd have larger client base if potential fan base of the franchises do not overlap. Again, it is a restriction inside the league; you are free to make your own Sarma Hockey League (SHL) and compete with the NHL
Of course, I'm free to start my own league. I'd invite you to join but the money I make stays with Team Gluten Free Sarma, and you wouldn't be the boss of me.

Don't remember who said it of NFL owners but it was something like "a bunch of Republicans that run a socialist business".

Many people seek after what they do not possess and are thus enslaved by the very things they want to acquire...because "precondition of that subjunctive". - Ivica LeFondre
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