Interesting history on race....... - Page 5 - Xtratime Community
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post #81 of 295 (permalink) Old May 6th, 2001, 18:31
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ha ha ha

don't.

It was a great post

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post #82 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 02:43
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ilTAZZ-

Your view is, indeed, unique. I appreciate the trouble you went through to make it known. It also comes across very honest. something I appreciate dearly.

However, in addition to being honest, unique and well thought out, your view on some issues are completely off base, presumptuous and mostly, speculative and somewhat ignorant to a degree. ...I mean that with due respect to a good post, otherwise.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ilTAZZ

Also you must understand....you guys are Europeans.....to some extent you cannot help but be racist.
[/quote}

Sorry, but this is a complete assumption on your part being racism is a fear driven state of an ignorant mind. As far as I know, these mental conditions are not exclusive to Europeans, or any other region of our planet.

Quote:


I totally agree with teh fact that Black people seem to need help to do things......and are almost always one of the massive burdens on every society. There is a popular song down here in teh caribbean that was written about 10 years ago

"95% black and 5% white in Jail"

Very true.....black people do always seem to contribute the most out of all races to unlawful activity no matter where you go. Black people come into neighborhoods and in 25 years its a slum.

Inclinations to unlawful activity, as you put it, have very little to do with one's ethnicity and everything to do with social economics.

In addition to slavery and gross lawful discrimination, blacks were also purposely left uneducated. Eventually, laws were passed which outlawed slavery, but no measures were taken to prepare the few million of uneducated, unemployed ex-slaves for somewhat a self productive existence.

Shiiett, equal rights laws weren't passed until almost 100 years later. By then, a massive cycle of social poverty caused by the handicapped living conditions they were left to, had begun. Poverty, with all of it's social and economical cancerous elements, were now part of these people's lives for several generations. It's hard enough to break the cycle of poverty, much less when it has been part of your ancestry for as long as you can track it.

So you see, these inclinations for social disorder aren't genetical, but have become cultural to some extent.

Your assumption that these social ills is somehow linked to be being black is somewhat correct. But the cause isn't genetics, but because they were enslaved and later enslaved by racial bounds.

These characterizations about being self centric, fiscally handicapped, etc, are, first and foremost, generalizations based on assumptions derived from limited experience. An interesting view, but extremely flawed.

Quote:

You Europeans have such warped ideas about ethnic differences.


Us Europeans and, at least, one black dude.

Enjoyed your take on this topic. Thanks!

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post #83 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 04:11
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I think all human beings are uncomfortable with something that's unfamiliar to them.

In Brazil their is hardly mention of rascism. It's not a colour thing there, it's a money thing. If you don't have money in Brazil than you're chit out of luck.

It's not a genetics thing. Black behaviour in urban areas has everything to do with culture and circumstance. Put it this way, Acoreans in downtown Toronto number around 150,000. That's quite a bit. The Acores was a very poor place, poorer than anything on the mainland. That's why their are more Acoreans living outside of the Acores than living there today. Toronto's Acorean and Jamaican community have about the same amount of men in jails. Why? Poverty and circumstance. Acoreans are no stupider than mainlanders. Only the Acores was much poorer, much more agrarian. The male youths had alcoholic fathers who beat their mothers. This was a norm when they arrived in Canada (now hold on...i'm not saying this was true of all Acoreans!). The Acores was a very brutal place to be far a very long time. It was largely ignored by the mainland until the mid '70s. The Acoreans worked hard and drank hard. They were whalers and cod fishermen, and if anybody knows anything about the fishing culture, its very macho and can get ugly (that's my opinion).

Fortunately or unfortunately they developed a culture that was and is to this day a very 'macho' one. Acorean men are the machocistic (is there such a word?) men in the world. And this has gotten them into a whole heap of chit. Acoreans or known all over the world for being 'street fighter' types. And unfortunately, their children suffered because of this. So again, it's poverty and circumstance, not genetics.

[Edited by Fee-Go on 07-05-2001 at 05:13]
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post #84 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 05:49
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Like a lot of discussions nowadays in society, I think the racist one is getting a bit out of hand. Personally, I think racist means to attach different "value" to people on the basis of race and not of character etc. If you go deeper than that I think all you will come up with is a bunch of BS and proof that every person in the world is a racist, which of course also is BS.

Also, I think there's a point in separating the concepts here. I am absolutely not racist in my definition, and I would estimate that out of my better friends about 80% are non-europeans (me being european of course). However, I'm definitely racially conscient. If I see a black guy on my block I think "hey, there's a black guy". There are people who would consider that to be racist, but I wouldn't agree. It's inevitable not to notice races, as you always notice what's different from yourself. It would be the same thing to see a rich guy if you're poor and think "whoa, a rich guy". The point here though, is as long as you don't look down on people because of race, or think of them as in some way inferior, then you're not racist. Especially, some need to realize the differance between racism and racial consciousness.

I'm sure I wrote something stupid now, but hey I'm hella tired.

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post #85 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 13:31
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I think a distinction between racist and prejudiced should be discussed, too. Prejudice means you don't like something because of what or who that person is. However, it doesn't necessarily mean racist. I think racism is believing you are somehow better and more "worthy" that another race of people. Prejudice means you don't like them for being black, for instance, but you don't necessarily think you are any better or that they shouldn't have an equal claim to rights etc..

Does that make sense? I think everybody can or should be able to admit to some prejudices, however big or small they are. Hell, you are allowed to like and dislike what you please. However, believing that those peoples you don't like are worse than you and don't deserve equal treatment is not OK. It's racism.

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post #86 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 16:01
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Yo Pila....i said it is possible genetic....but even if it isn't...it could aswell be because its how evey black person is raised.

Its like when you are a kid and some guy of another race cuts of your father's or mother's car in traffic and you parent says....Damned (race) Idiot. Its anendoctrination.

And for me we will never be equal until i can see an Indian walking down the road with his head tied up and not call him towel head in my mind an dthink its funny. Not seeing white people and thinking "Look at the little white boys" Or being able to impress my freinds by telling them that i have been with Indian and White women. Why is that sommin to be exceptionally proud of? Are they not human too? And also.....seeing someone as white first or black first......and huiman second is also a part of teh great divide between races.

Understand......we will never be equal. And also Dae!!!!!..(go sign up its derby week) and also prejudice and racist have such a thin line between them.

I just want you guys to admit that racism doesn't only come in forms of skin heads and swastica's we can all be latently racist without ever consciously recognizing it.

eh-em..........what's wrong with SLB!!!!??????? doesn't he talk to black people? BWAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!

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post #87 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 16:33
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Quote:
Originally posted by ilTAZZ
Yo Pila....i said it is possible genetic....but even if it isn't...it could aswell be because its how evey black person is raised.

Its like when you are a kid and some guy of another race cuts of your father's or mother's car in traffic and you parent says....Damned (race) Idiot. Its anendoctrination.

And for me we will never be equal until i can see an Indian walking down the road with his head tied up and not call him towel head in my mind an dthink its funny. Not seeing white people and thinking "Look at the little white boys" Or being able to impress my freinds by telling them that i have been with Indian and White women. Why is that sommin to be exceptionally proud of? Are they not human too? And also.....seeing someone as white first or black first......and huiman second is also a part of teh great divide between races.

Understand......we will never be equal. And also Dae!!!!!..(go sign up its derby week) and also prejudice and racist have such a thin line between them.

I just want you guys to admit that racism doesn't only come in forms of skin heads and swastica's we can all be latently racist without ever consciously recognizing it.

eh-em..........what's wrong with SLB!!!!??????? doesn't he talk to black people? BWAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!
I've said earlier in this thread that we humans are extremely visually centric, it is basic instinct, and at one time, essential to our survival to note physical characteristics first. In the broader scope of our species, you are correct. I'm just arguing that it isn't exclusive to any grouping.

I readily admit that racism isn't always so apparent and bold. It is up to each individual to seek the root of their fears and analyze them. Until one can do that, we limit our own freedom of thought and thus restrict the freedom of being that we are. Until we are free from these self-imposed boundaries we will continuously resist and reject our fellow men.

This thread has provided me another step to that freedom I seek. I don't know how far I still have to go, but can't overstate how important a step I took the other day. So, I agree. Racism isn't always so self evident.

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post #88 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 16:35
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Quote:
Originally posted by ilTAZZ


Understand......we will never be equal. And also Dae!!!!!..(go sign up its derby week) and also prejudice and racist have such a thin line between them.

b]
I agree completely. They often go hand in hand. Racist people are extremely prejudiced, but I don't think all prejudiced people are necessarily racist. The difference maybe academic, but I think it's important.

Everything gets labeled racist now a days, when in actuality we've just got a lot people carrying prejudices and pre-conceived notions.

Neither one does anybody any good.

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post #89 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 17:43
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I read something once in an essay by a black man about racism in the USA that has stayed with me. He wrote that a black man is reminded every day that he is black... by the thousand and one subtle things that (not all) white people do and say that signal their fear or bias. White people don't have their color pushed back at them that way. I have often wondered how I would have fared in life with black skin. I wonder how I would not want to kill every guy that called me n!gger.

Tazz, I'm hip to the fact that we don't have to see burning crosses and nooses on tree limbs to find racists. Here is a story that blew my mind one day... I came out of a local bar one afternoon and found this absolutely glorious double rainbow in the sky. I stood on the corner just drinking it in (after drinking a couple heinekens in the bar) when an old guy (70's) I recognize from the neighborhood came walking by "look, how beautiful" I said, and pointed up. He looked up with me for a moment, paused, and before going on his way said "Yeah it is beautiful... some n!gger will come along and ruin it, though". I almost fell down. My mouth dropped open. I stood on the corner by myself and didn't know whether to laugh or cry. How fuc#ed up could a human being be to have that thought out of nothing but looking at a rainbow. I think I went back into the bar and finished getting drunk.

Regarding interracial dating... I don't have a daughter, but I'll tell you this, I wouldn't want any color guy near her, knowing what all us horny bastards want to do with chicks!
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post #90 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 20:04 Thread Starter
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Ok here goes Tazz, I take it that the main point of your post is that Im a white supremist.. So I'm a bordeline white supremist, am I??? Depends on your Point of view of a white supremist is, but Iím going to tell you my honest views and you tell me If Im a white supremist.

Well first off I'm a supporter of the British National Party, if that counts as white supremist then I am one. Their a nationalsitic political party, whose policies include an end to mass immigration and an end to mass multiculturism. They are the only party who have the guts to speak out againt multiculturism. The main oposition party in England has Mp's who have tried, but have had to 'apologise' for their comments agaisnt multiculturism. Now, I honesly do not see why multiculturism has to be brushed under a mat as a 'taboo' subject and cannot be properly debated! Anyway, I'll go on to tell you why I'm a supporter, In a minute, but first let me clear something up.

Now, Im going to be frank. You want to know where my problem lies. Well, I tell ya. Not with blacks but with asians. Racist am I. Yes, Now I'm sure that there are decent asians. I have friends of many muticultural diversities, white, asians, black etc. but I have a problem with Asians.

Now Im sorry if I've offended any asians but I'll tell you why I've got a problem with Asians. I live in a town where I'd say about 20/30% are Asian or of Asian background. Now there are 'no-go' areas where whites are NOT allowed to step in otherwise you risk your life, are there any equivalent white areas????......GOD FORBID, can you imagine the outcry!!!!! Political correctness, again, which is the point I made originally and is my only real point.

But anyway to why I dislike Asians. About 2 years ago I had 2 friends who were left half dead, by a group of Asians. The incident was clearly racist as they were attacked for wearing an England shirt and singing 'God save the queen' after England had won a game. Now the incident was heavily documented in the local press, although not in the mass media. However in the local media NOT ONCE was it mentioned that it WAS a racist attack. Why?? because they were white, and of course there isn't such thing as a racist attack on white. The Asians also go around with a major attitude problem saying England is crap etc. and all the English are bastards, why do they live here then?!?! The other thing I dislike is they canít fight their own battles, you have an arguement with one Asian, youíre effectively also going to have to brace yourself for the Asianís 50 cousins the next day. Now the BNPís policies do not stick to political correctness thatís why I support them. I also find it a shame that recent demographic studies show that in 200 years there will be very few whites in the world, something like 10%, and I also find it a shame that eventually if the human race does not end suddenly that whites will become extinct. Racist view!??! Well Iím proud of my race/races, but then thatís racist to be proud.

But anyway I ask myself why wasn't the inciednt documented in the mass media. When 6 Asians were actually convicted of the a racist assault. I don't have to think long, as the reason is because the attacked were white. Now in the mass media what was well documented was a murder on a black youth, Stephen Lawrence. Now first off I'd like to say I thought the people who attacked Stephen Lawrence are sick as what they did was appauling. However the mass media picked up on this incident and for the next year all that we heard were how the police were racist for not convicting the racist attackers. I'd like now to say nobody has ever been convicted for this crime, and so it cannot be comfirmed as racist but yet the media went on for a year about the racist attack. I guarantee you had he been white, the incident wouldn't have gained more than a week's media attention. Political correctness again!

Now within the last month there was an incident that happened in Oldham, a northern English town. An OAP who fought for Britain in the war was attacked by a group of Asians and left half dead. Now I can honestly say that this is the only racist attack on a white I can remember being documented by the mass media. Although over 60% of racist attacks are on whites, in the mass media it is always documented how white supremists attack asians, blacks etc. BTW the mass media are now getting blamed for creating racial tension in Oldham for covering the incident. I guarentee you had it been whites attacking asians the complaint to the mass media would not even be contemplated, because of course its racist. So what point am I trying to make?

Well my original point was about poliotical correctness. Which is now way OTT. On British news the word 'black' is now not allowed to be used to describe black's, but rather black's are refered to as 'coloured' or something along those lines. Now if you are going to incorporate this rule for blacks then whites should also not be reffered to as whites, yet they are.

More political correctness. A soldier got thrown out of the British army for having a tatoo of Britain, which was of course racist. More, the asians recently celebrated some religous festival. They were allowed to celebrate in the streets and parade their indian flags in the town centre. On st'george's day (the patron saint of england) english flags were banned, in case of creating racial tension. So what exactly were the Indian flags doing. Yet again one rule for asians another for whites.

Crime. 20 % of the population in my town are asians, yet police figures say that over 60% of crimes are commited by asians. When this was recently publicised in the local press, it was of course racist despite the fact that they were FACTS.

Now Iíve already mentioned oldham. And people living in England on this board will probably have heard of the race problems in Oldham. Well, on the main morning program in England, gmtv, an asian minister from oldham was asked why he thought the attack took place, well the asians had nothing to do was his answer. I hate to imagine if a white minister had replied to a white attack by saying they had nothing to do. He would not have a job now i'll guarentee you that now.

You want more political correctness well here goes. On May Day there were over 5,000 anti-capitalist protesters that were ALLOWED to march in London, WHEN THE YEAR BEFORE THEY HAD CAUSED EXTENSIVE VIOLENCE DESTROYING VARIOUS SHOPS AND DEFACING NATIONAL MONUMENTS. Asians were allowed to march to celebrate their festival, so you would expect whites to be allowed to march. Wrong! when they wanted to march in protest to the racist attacks in Oldham it was of course racist.

More political correctness. In 1997 it was the general election in Britain. The British national party produced a party polictical broadcast that was banned from television. It was nationalistic and went on about how millions lost their lives for Britain and how Britain was losing its national identity with so many immigrants being let in Nnow of curse this is racist being nationalistic, so it was banned from TV. However there is a program in England called 'Goodness gracious me' which basically is asians taking the piss out of English culture. Is this banned, no I of course it can't be, because if it was banned it would be racist to Asians.

More political correctness. Take the England national team. They have a club called the the england memebers club. They now are only allowed to give a certain amount of tickets to whites and they have to give a certain percentage to ethnic minorities, because of course it is racist if they donít get their tickets. Well, the ethnic minorities get their certain percentage of tickets and ARE ALLOWED more if need be, however should whites need more they of course are not allowed extra tickets.

Now before I finish I'd like to say that most people of most races are decent people, and I know it is only a minority of each race thatcause the problems, but its the minority, like the minority that that left my frends half dead that make my blood boil, and then if your asian you get away 10 times lighter than if you were white.

So If these opinions are of a white supremist, then so be it, but what do you expect me to feel when it is more and more that I cannot walk my home town, withought fearing being attacked by asians, what do you expect, when I constantly have to be monitoring what I say incase it is politically uncorrect. Im sorry If offended any asians but it is getting to the point where it is beyond a joke.

Oh and just for the record Tazz by white supremist groups such as the KKK I am regraded as non-white, due to my Latin blood.

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post #91 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 20:53
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Your xenophobic tone was easily detectable, SLB. It's why I called you on it.

The situation in Britain as you describe it is a difficult one to deal with. But, there is no excuse for the government's failure to protect it's citizens from violence. PERIOD.

However, what you must see first and foremost is your role in this crucial and delicate struggle to protect your physical self and mind. Holding an ethnic group responsible for the beatings of your friends is dangerous and wrong. The government failed to protect your friends from these hoodlums. Your anger should be directed solely at the people responsible whom have taken an oath to protect it's citizens and have balked on these oaths. You must refrain, at all costs, of becoming one of these same hoodlums that contributed to your friends' misfortune and further deteriorate the society you live in. After all, if you choose to partake in the acts and thoughts of barbarians, are all Portuguese guilty by association?

Second, you must not let fear consume you. Your fear of the so-called "white" extinction is enslaving you. You deserve no credit, whether good or bad, for being a member of a particular race or nationality. It wasn't your doing. The human race will live on.

However, you are directly responsible for whom you become as an individual. Worry about that! That's where you'll make an impact on society, and, most importantly, on your self-preservation.

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post #92 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 22:02
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How exactly, is teh governement responsible for the beatings of his friends? Seems to me the *ssholes who kicked the crap out of them are responsible. THe governement and the police can't prevent every crime. However, I would strongly question the fact they are asian has anything to do with why they beat SLB's friends.

SLB, from that post I would say you have heavy prejudices towards Asians, but at least they are based on something. I also think you are smart enough to realize you do not have issues with Asians, but rather the Asians in your area. There's a difference.

The only way I personally would label you racist is if you beleived that due to these few incidents you mentioned all asians are bad and worse, should not be allowed the same rights as all english citizens/residents. I can't tell what your stance on that was.


As for multiculturalism, what's wrong with it? I think attempting to incorporate all the local cultures within a group is important to maximize the group's potential. However, I also don't think that laws should be rewritten and customs broken just because a few "new guys" showed up. It's the inmmigrants job to assimilate as much it is the job of the group to allow them to assimilate.

It bugs the crap out of me when a new member of a group (immigrants for example) don't even try to learn the customs and language of their new home. And just as annoying is when the group makes no attempt to understand and make room for the new arrival. It's a two way street and often neither side does everything they can to help.

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post #93 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 22:22
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Dae, do you mean that if you live in a community that is divided into 4 equal groups of Portuguese, Chinese, Argentinean and Ethiopian people you would want their 4 cultures to be assimilated together to form one local culture? I hope I misread that post cause I vehemently oppose that.

I am fiercly proud of my Portuguese heritage and would not want it to be "altered" in any way shape or form to appease the local inhabitants. I don't mind "sampling" other cultures (I adore those "Mexican", "Armenian" etc...culture days at school. I usually skip a class to sample that culture) but I would not want my culture to be altered in any way shape or form...

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post #94 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 22:37
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Yes, that pretty much what I'm saying. You can still maintain your ethnic identity while taking part in the "local" environment. Are you not both Portuguese and Canadian? My father never lost his mexican identity but did assimilate into america.

What I have issue with say me moving to Korea and refusing to learn Korean, korean culture and then expecting Korea to change to my needs. It's a two way street. If I moved to Korea, I would never lose my american identity, but I would also not be so arrogant as to refuse to try and "fit in".

The same would apply for groups. Ethnic identity can be maintained while also helping create a seperate culture that is derived from the many groups with in. The USA is based on that principle, despite the fact many refuse to admit it.

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post #95 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 22:42
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Obviously I take part in both cultures. I love being Canadian (best passport in the world) but I also love it just as much as being Portuguese. I don't mix and match the Canadian things I do with the Portuguese ones.

I agree with you in the sense that immigrants who come to Canada and refuse to speak English or French...however I do have a soft spot for those that don't learn either if they happen to be Portuguese (my deceased grandmother spoke neither)...I guess you can say thats a hypocrisy...

Oh and I do still not agree. I believe that Cultures should be kept separate and not assimilated...I belive in diversity, not assimilation. Each individual ethnic group (whether it be Canadian, Portuguese, Mexican, Japanese etc...) is unique in it's own way and thats the way it should be.

I respect your opinion and I hope you can respect mine.

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post #96 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 22:44
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Everyone's a hypocrit when it comes to their family and friends.

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post #97 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 22:47
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yeah but I am a real hypocrit in a lot of things when it comes to Portuguese people. I'll defend them no matter how much evidence is pointing in their direction..call me crazy

However I don't let that interfere with my objectivity in certain regards. For example I was once a foreman (at 18 years old!!!!!) at Tommy Hilfiger Canada. I was given the responsibility to hire a few people for the "Tommy Junior" distribution section...my boss did the interviews with me there. There was a couple of Portugues people applying and I did not hire them because I did not feel that they would be productive enough....I ended up selecting a Brazilian and a couple of Quebecois frenchmen . I selected my 2 biggest prejudices ...gotta love the irony...

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post #98 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 22:52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Marco



Oh and I do still not agree. I believe that Cultures should be kept separate and not assimilated...I belive in diversity, not assimilation. Each individual ethnic group (whether it be Canadian, Portuguese, Mexican, Japanese etc...) is unique in it's own way and thats the way it should be.

I respect your opinion and I hope you can respect mine.

You equate assimilation with somehow losing your identity. I don't. I'm totally against, say, a mexican having to forget he's mexican in order to be accepted. Nowhere did I say that's what I meant. My dad sure as hell didn't sell out. He's as mexican as he ever was.

To me, assimilate means learning what teh group does and doing that when working with the group. I see no reason why a greek, a korean and an englishman can't form a group and work together. The mere exposure to each other's culture will cause small changes and wind up creating something different. Three groups living together and refusing to share and experience each other's culture is just stupid. If somebody is so scared of changing that they refuse to learn and accept other views, along with their own, then they are really narrow minded.

Mexican americans, or portuguese canadians are still mexican and portuguese, but they are not the same as the guys back in Mexico and Portugal. That's impossible because they're in different places with different people. Some sort of change is inevitable. I say it's a change that is natural and healthy. Fighting it would be ridiculous. Quite frankly, that's when you get white supremists.


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post #99 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 22:54
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Nothing is lost in multicultural mingling, only enhanced. Just look at Razor's newborn daughter, she'll grow up taking the best of her Portuguese, Italian/American heritage with her and her dealings in life's adventures. She'll be able to offer a unique contribution to society because of it. She'll never lose that in which took part to make her.

All cultures had to mingle to get the uniqueness it now possesses. Do you think that Portugal culture ended and started the day the day Alfonso declared himself king of that small patch of land in Northern Western Iberia?

The reason we are Portuguese is because of the influence of various cultures we were so fortunate to come in contact with throughout our history. That culture continues to get better and more unique each day we introduce a new flavor to it.

Fear will only serve to deny us from being who we are.



Anyways, I've rambled long enough on this thread. I have nothing more to add other than more ramblings that no one gets. Just wished that I could share my clarity in better fashion.

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post #100 of 295 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2001, 22:59
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Diversity is many cultures functioning together, with equal respect and acceptance. No one is better than another. Keeping things seperate is not diversioty, but seperatism. If the cultures do not interact, there is no diversity. Just a bunch of cultures that refuse to rub elbows.

"Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose, but how drunk you get."


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