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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 00:46 Thread Starter
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Art in Context : Discussion 3

Running a high fever and writing an exhibition text, these questions came to me:

1. If we have a topic entitled "What is Art?" then, what is not art?

2. Why don't people talk about art the way they talk about movies?

3. For those of us who make art, please share the joy, loneliness and other emotions of being an artist.

I look forward to your replies

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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 07:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonita
3. For those of us who make art, please share the joy, loneliness and other emotions of being an artist.
I'll post the other answers later on...


I usually paint when im not happy, im not sure why, seeming I only paint landscape and stills at moment. But when im happy i like to draw the human figure. Its like sometimes when theres nothing you can do when your not happy, as if its out of your hands...so you just go and paint. Sort of like the painting is talking about something that is out of my hands.

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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 13:46
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1. If we have a topic entitled "What is Art?" then, what is not art?
* As soon as it is a product thus which aim is that it should be sold, makes it has nothing to do with art. For the rest is a negative definition always hard to formulate

2. Why don't people talk about art the way they talk about movies?

I think people do talk about art as they do about lmovies. Certain movies that is, movies made to express thing regardless how much they will sell at the boxoffice. Movies that are no products.

3. For those of us who make art, please share the joy, loneliness and other emotions of being an artist.

Making art is way too much credit for the bad writings I sometimes do, but the general idea most of the time is "why did it look soo good in my head, and does it come out soo restrictedly awfull on paper"

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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 13:53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gOD
1. If we have a topic entitled "What is Art?" then, what is not art?
* As soon as it is a product thus which aim is that it should be sold, makes it has nothing to do with art. For the rest is a negative definition always hard to formulate
There are those who make a living through intentionally selling art with that particular reason. Now they too can still express their emotions and depict something meaningfull by painting or whatever. So why shouldnt that be considered art, just because they may have the intention of selling it before hand. Was that hard to formulate no, it hard for you to grasp.

You argue that as soon as art becomes a product, it has nothing to do with art. Well then I feel sorry for all those artists who have sold their artworks, isnt that also a form of product if it is sold and bought...so is that art then. Either way you contradict yourself.

Do you know how many artists are commissioned...they do paintings and artworks for other people. And that is not the artists intention but of the person who commissions it, because they have to do what the person tells them to do. Now are you arguing thats not art either...because it serves the form of a product.

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Last edited by SAMPDORIA; January 16th, 2005 at 14:02.
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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 14:03
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First of all I never said it was not meaningfull. I just say it has nothing to do with art. The economical and the artistic field are distinct. I understand the first would like some of the credibility of the latter, but that does not justify what Habermas calls the colonisation of that latter system.

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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 14:06
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Originally Posted by gOD
First of all I never said it was not meaningfull. I just say it has nothing to do with art. The economical and the artistic field are distinct. I understand the first would like some of the credibility of the latter, but that does not justify what Habermas calls the colonisation of that latter system.
How can an artwork be meaningful and not be art?

You say how economics and art are distinct, yet you look at what is not art, in terms of economics.

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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 14:14
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It's not an artwork. When it's made with the aim to be an element in the economical process it's a product. Is it meaningfull. Yes, people will buy it (hopefully because they need it) and use it. Is it art? No.

An artworks is made not with the aim of being turned into something of economical value. It's aim is to externalise an inner feeling (or even an insight). It's aim is to be art.

That said you can have your view onit of course

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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 14:20
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Originally Posted by gOD
It's not an artwork. When it's made with the aim to be an element in the economical process it's a product. Is it meaningfull. Yes, people will buy it (hopefully because they need it) and use it. Is it art? No.

An artworks is made not with the aim of being turned into something of economical value. It's aim is to externalise an inner feeling (or even an insight). It's aim is to be art.

That said you can have your view onit of course
If an artwork has the "...aim is to externalise an inner feeling (or even an insight)" and still have the intention of being sold. Then that is still art.

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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 14:26
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Maybe but if the question were asked "would you also make it if you knew it wouldn't sell" and the answer is "no"...

A good name that pops to mind in this discussion is Panamarenko who certainly makes art.

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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 14:37
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Originally Posted by gOD
Maybe but if the question were asked "would you also make it if you knew it wouldn't sell" and the answer is "no"...

A good name that pops to mind in this discussion is Panamarenko who certainly makes art.

When an artist has the intention of making an artwork to sell it, and then chooses not to sell it, and keeps it, even though its original intention was to sell, does that suddently make it art, after it has been critiqued and is dislayed in an art exhibition. You would have to argue that it is not art from the beggining. But then how would we know the difference? We would be calling what is and isnt art through intentions, and ignore all the other elements and principles of art. So then i could bend a spoon, and that is art.

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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 14:45
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That is true. Artists as Warhol in his latter period, who produced his drawings as in a factory just because he knew he would make money out it, are a difficult matter in that. Personally I dislike his work and not (only) because I know he ha dno other aim than to sell. In general I think it is not difficult to pick out those artists who work like that. They will become predictable and repetitive because they know what sells.

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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 14:57
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Quote:
2. Why don't people talk about art the way they talk about movies?
I think that is a quite simple answer, Movies are the final artistic form of the Mass Society. They have the capacity to embrace about everything (either subject, style, time, story and even other artistic fields) to many people, totally adapted to a industrial society of mass production.

gOD:

Quote:
The economical and the artistic field are distinct. I understand the first would like some of the credibility of the latter, but that does not justify what Habermas calls the colonisation of that latter system.
I still like the Walter Benjamin notion of uniqueness and aura of the Artwork. This aided with Adorno/Horkheimen(who is probally spelled wrongly) approach of reproduction in industrial age helps very much to the notion that art and economic production are in ideal (not in pratice in my opinion) not linked. However that puts in danger the status of Literature, cinema and music, all of those styles that in some sense are born to be reproduced, copied (this does not change they are art when they are produced with something else than economical vallue, the consume of it is a consequence of final product and of course as industrial product only there is no such vallue).

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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 15:05
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Originally Posted by JCamilo
I still like the Walter Benjamin notion of uniqueness and aura of the Artwork. This aided with Adorno/Horkheimen(who is probally spelled wrongly) approach of reproduction in industrial age helps very much to the notion that art and economic production are in ideal (not in pratice in my opinion) not linked. However that puts in danger the status of Literature, cinema and music, all of those styles that in some sense are born to be reproduced, copied (this does not change they are art when they are produced with something else than economical vallue, the consume of it is a consequence of final product and of course as industrial product only there is no such vallue).

Good post!
I think when it comes to liteature, cinema, music one can argue that the reproduction lays in the field of distribution rather than in the creation of the work itself. (In the same way even paitings have reproductions. I must admit I don't know that much about that,... Bonita? ). Maria Callas singing Casta Diva, or Wng Kar Wei's 2046 are unique works of art, the many copies of it just aid to let more people enjoy it.

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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 15:15
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Originally Posted by gOD
That is true. Artists as Warhol in his latter period, who produced his drawings as in a factory just because he knew he would make money out it, are a difficult matter in that. Personally I dislike his work and not (only) because I know he ha dno other aim than to sell. In general I think it is not difficult to pick out those artists who work like that. They will become predictable and repetitive because they know what sells.

Commercial artsist do repeat themselves for sure. One example may be that a landscape artist may constantly use the same type of trees and shape of objects and use them in all situations. Sort of like standardising. Sure i dont like this idea, but arguing its not art, is another thing all together. But after loosing time and time again the debates i had with my teacher and artists as to artworks that i called "not art" because i didnt like it, ive realised that art is soo general, its meaning and intention throught to its physical characteristics. You just have to decide what you like and dislike. But dont limit what you think art is through its intentions, because my personal view on what isnt art, is when its labelled art purely on intentions. I guess that my answer to question 1.

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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 15:36
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I think when it comes to liteature, cinema, music one can argue that the reproduction lays in the field of distribution rather than in the creation of the work itself.
Without talking about cinema, who never had the distribution/creation apart because they are born as a industrial project, even literature mixed both. The oral, even this one have in their creation process to make easier to be kept by memory and then to be reproduced. Stuffs like the rhymes or the "Once upon a time" are there to make reproduction easier, but of course, they are not the core of the product, that stills the unique experience they tell.

Quote:
Maria Callas singing Casta Diva, or Wng Kar Wei's 2046 are unique works of art, the many copies of it just aid to let more people enjoy it.
And that make us go back to Walter Benjamin who saw the socialization of art as positive result of the reproduction fo moderm age.
Of course, there goes the old story, the artwork of Robson Crusoe is not valid because no one (save himself, the cocunuts, friday and Tom Hanks) will see it and be enchanted by it.
Perhaps enchantment is the word. Nothing is more true than the stories that once enchanted and living in a Faery Realm, you will notice time will pass slower there. Enchantment is the real time machine, key to infinite. When you are enchanted then you can at once see the work of art as the intetion of the artists, his history, his social effects, how it was used, what it does mean now and how it will continue the transmition to the future generations. Perhaps the first thing about what is not art, is what does not enchant (no matter the style, the technique, even if it is pretty).
Of course I will settle down and come back from my trip now.

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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 15:41
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Originally Posted by JCamilo
Perhaps enchantment is the word. Nothing is more true than the stories that once enchanted and living in a Faery Realm, you will notice time will pass slower there. Enchantment is the real time machine, key to infinite. When you are enchanted then you can at once see the work of art as the intetion of the artists, his history, his social effects, how it was used, what it does mean now and how it will continue the transmition to the future generations. Perhaps the first thing about what is not art, is what does not enchant (no matter the style, the technique, even if it is pretty).
Of course I will settle down and come back from my trip now.
What about abstract art?

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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old January 16th, 2005, 17:49 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAMPDORIA
What about abstract art?
What about abstract art, SAMPDORIA?

Perhaps you would like to explain your question?


J:
Geert:

Regarding "reproduction:"

1. In painting, it's true that there may be only one DAVID and MONA LISA and MILLET'S ANGELUS; but what made these paintings important to the PUBLIC has gone beyond the desire to touch the original in the raw. The thousands of replicas - be they fakes, postcards, placemats, dolls or digital files - are proofs that human beings have not forgotten the original artwork; what's more, they have actually understood the functions and the duende of these images.

2. In movies: distrubution is the ultimate judgement, yes. But a director who is also an artist will tell you the process is just as important. "2046" has taken Wong Kar-wei three plus years to complete and many actors had actually walked off the soundstage in the interim. Wong is financially independent and that is a strength, believe me. On the other hand, Stephen Chow's "Shaolin Soccer" is less fortunate. The reason why it has never taken off in the U.S. is because Miramax had chosen to shelve it for YEARS! Then again, you look at "Alexander," a flick that the rich men try to rush to market -- and it, to quote dear Dylan, "breaks like a little girl."

That left Jean-Luc Godard standing. The three times I've seen "L'eloge de l'amour" (In Praise of Love), I could count the number of people in the audience (1st time: 5; 2nd time: a Sunday, 12; 3rd time: 5) - but for those who sat through the film, the experience is equal if not greater than gazing intently at the most valuable work of art.

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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old January 17th, 2005, 02:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonita
What about abstract art, SAMPDORIA?

Perhaps you would like to explain your question?

Because there are many abstract artworks have no meaning at all. Some even discover one after its finished. As he argued art can only be art if it enchaces and has meaning and that we have to understand the circumstances of the artists before we call it art or not. So i say what about abstract art. Sometimes it has no intention other than to look good, sometimes it has the intention to either look good or bad according to the end result of experimentation. But this has no meaning either. I just wanted to point out that we shouldnt just judge what is not art because it has no meaning.

Also regarding reproduction of whole artworks, ive said before in another thread i do not consider it to be true art, as the artwork as a whole is a total copy, but as for repeating beats in music and repeating objects in paintings, thats also different to reproducing whole artworks.

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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old January 17th, 2005, 02:37
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Originally Posted by SAMPDORIA
Because many abstract art has no meaning at all. Some even discover one after its finished. As he argued art can only be art if it enchaces and has meaning and that we have to understand the circumstances of the artists before we call it art or not. So i say what about abstract art. Sometimes it has no intention other than to look good, sometimes it has the intention to eiter look good or bad according to the end result of experimentation. But this has no meaning either. I just wanted to point out that we shouldnt just judge what is not art because it has no meaning.

Also regarding reproduction of whole artworks, ive said before in another thread i do not consider it to be true art, as the artwork as a whole is a total copy, but as for repeating beats in music and repeating objects in paintings, thats also different to reproducing whole artworks.
I have to say your vision of modern art is narrow,a physical repersentive of form does not validate it as art or lack of form take away it meaning. Abstract art is more cerebal and can have deep social & political meaning (i.e. Munich Art exhibit 1937)

People easily dismiss what they do not understand.
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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old January 17th, 2005, 02:42
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Originally Posted by Che
I have to say your vision of modern art is narrow,a physical repersentive of form does not validate it as art or lack of form take away it meaning. Abstract art is more cerebal and can have deep social & political meaning (i.e. Munich Art exhibit 1937)

People easily dismiss what they do not understand.



Your totally wronge Che.
I was saying that people should not ONLY judge artwork on its meaning. So in fact my view on art is more general and open than anyone here.

And your right, people do dismiss what they dont understand, cause you dont even understand what ive said in this whole thread it seems.

And i wasnt talking about abstract art as a whole, i was talking about the works which have no meaning, especially the artist i remember talking to about his abstract work.

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Last edited by SAMPDORIA; January 17th, 2005 at 02:49.
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