Montenegro vote opens separatist Pandora's box - Xtratime Community
 
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post #1 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 08:29 Thread Starter
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Montenegro vote opens separatist Pandora's box

http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx...national_news/

Montenegro is now independent. However they were independent before WW1. If Kosovo gains independence then a dangerous precedent will be set due to the fact that the EU will be creating a country that was never independent nor viable on its own.

If Kosovo becomes independent, then so should Republika Srpska and the Muslim/Croat Federation within Bosnia.

It's only fair.

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Last edited by Fleka; May 24th, 2006 at 09:05.
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post #2 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 08:55
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Political debate forum rules:

https://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=126665

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5) You cannot start a thread or make a post with an article and leave the article as it is without any analysis of your own. Everybody should take the trouble to construct their own arguments and use excerpts from articles (quotes) to authenticate their reasoning. Remember, this is a debate forum, not a news site. We will lock or delete threads of such nature.
I agreee that this could be interesting topic (or even more likely yet another balkan war zone), but you can not leave it with a link only. Please elaborate.
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post #3 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 09:05 Thread Starter
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Political debate forum rules:

https://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=126665



I agreee that this could be interesting topic (or even more likely yet another balkan war zone), but you can not leave it with a link only. Please elaborate.
I edited my initial post.

Thanks.

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post #4 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 11:10
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Independence and referendums are a very tricky thing. They go against the well established rules of state sovereignty. Thus, all independence issues need to be treated on its own, case by case. I don’t think comparisons work well (e.g. if kosovo go, so should RS).

There are of course over all principles, but the issues are different in each case and each country.

Then also, its a process. A long process, an evolution if you like. If you study the Spanish case and wait for another 5 to 10 years, then you will see it. Kosovo is not gaining independence in a day, neither was Montenegro. The % rates are only one of many criteria. 55% or 92% (the last thing I saw about the number of Albanians in Kosovo) means a lot but doesn’t tell you the whole story.

I am not in the prediction business, so I don’t know what will happen with Kosovo, RS or FedBiH. But it is surely not only a question of retribution (take Kosovo, give us RS), or only a question fairness (especially as fairness in politics and social studies can mean so many different things).

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post #5 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 11:57
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Ante,

why do you constantly make these HATE posts here. Every time there is a topic of a kind you make your "I hate Serbia" posts like crazy. We all know how do you feel about all this and you cant make it stronger. It is absolutely of no use to all posters who wants to have a good discussion about the situation and the case of Montenegro ( or Kosovo) as such. You make no attempt to sound reasonable or contribute to the debate. All you do is mock and provoke. No matter if all your arguments are good or bad, this is simply extremely unhelpful and kills every thread on the issue.

Please stop that. Some people want to have a meaningful conversation about the situation, and posts like yours ( I am not saying you are the only one) just ruin each thread time after time.

Think about it.

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post #6 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 13:15
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If RS wants to have a referendum, that is fine. However, they fully well should understand their risks. They have no real right to a referendum, unless all 3 sides come to a concensus that there should be one.
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post #7 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 13:29 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Manijak
If RS wants to have a referendum, that is fine. However, they fully well should understand their risks. They have no real right to a referendum, unless all 3 sides come to a concensus that there should be one.
I agree. All 3 people should agree that there should be a referendum, however that is the difficult bit. However lets assume it happens and RS in its current form break away. Should they be an enity on their own or be allowed to join Serbia proper ?

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post #8 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 13:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bono
Independence and referendums are a very tricky thing. They go against the well established rules of state sovereignty. Thus, all independence issues need to be treated on its own, case by case. I don’t think comparisons work well (e.g. if kosovo go, so should RS).
Quite frankly, I have no idea how could the international community object against the independence of Republika Srpska (or at least against the referendum about it's sovereignty) if Kosovo gets independent...

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post #9 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 13:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleka
I agree. All 3 people should agree that there should be a referendum, however that is the difficult bit. However lets assume it happens and RS in its current form break away. Should they be an enity on their own or be allowed to join Serbia proper ?
That really does not matter to me. Of course, if they are independent, they can do what they want. I can gurantee you, they will not break away unless we say they can. Otherwise, we will see another war, and I have no problem with that.

Personally, RS should not exist, since it was created in a time of war. Same goes for the federation. Then we wont have these discussions.
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post #10 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 13:37 Thread Starter
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You have no problem with another war? Are you serious Manijak?

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post #11 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 13:38 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by OAnimal
Quite frankly, I have no idea how could the international community object against the independence of Republika Srpska (or at least against the referendum about it's sovereignty) if Kosovo gets independent...

I agree. They just cannot keep taking from Serbia. They must also give.

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post #12 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 13:39
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The "RS" was created as a result of ethnic cleansing, it's beyond me why it was recognised as an entity in the first case.

Besides, it was ready to callapse in 1995 but the EU stepped in.


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post #13 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 13:40 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ero
The "RS" was created as a result of ethnic cleansing, it's beyond me why it was recognised as an entity in the first case.

Besides, it was ready to callapse in 1995 but the EU stepped in.
Would you be Ok with us having it if the Croats got Hercegovina ?

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post #14 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 13:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OAnimal
Quite frankly, I have no idea how could the international community object against the independence of Republika Srpska (or at least against the referendum about it's sovereignty) if Kosovo gets independent...
that’s is indeed a point. What I am saying is that it aint so simple. Each case is different and you cant say "If Kosovo is allowed, so should be RS". Kosovo is in essence managed independently for ages and has a very strong disbalance among ethnicity lines and across the border. RS is a part of a 2 or 3 (if you look at Brcko too) side Federation, in which ethnicity problems are cooling down (though I admit are still quite high) and which has its own history of events and actions. Plus, both Serbia and RS are being openly targeted for not cooperating on crucial international community issues, like war crimes. That is just one example to illustrate my points - it is not as easy as 2+2=4. For the record: I am not saying RS should NOT be independent one day or should not be give a chance to choose.

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post #15 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 13:44
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Originally Posted by Fleka
I agree. They just cannot keep taking from Serbia. They must also give.

This is exactly the point I am against! This is not about "them" taking "From" or "giving". This perspective is completely flawed and irrelevant.

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post #16 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 13:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ero
The "RS" was created as a result of ethnic cleansing, it's beyond me why it was recognised as an entity in the first case.

Besides, it was ready to callapse in 1995 but the EU stepped in.
Another point for consideration in the BIG picture decision making. However, Ero, it is not like that was the ONLY ethnic cleansing happening in those years and the only "clean" land to come out as a result of the massacres!

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post #17 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 13:47 Thread Starter
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Another point for consideration in the BIG picture decision making. However, Ero, it is not like that was the ONLY ethnic cleansing happening in those years and the only "clean" land to come out as a result of the massacres!
In his eyes Croatia were like Switzerland. :rollani:

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post #18 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 13:47
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Originally Posted by Fleka
You have no problem with another war? Are you serious Manijak?
When rules are broken, decisions have to be made.

Its pretty clear what the right way of going about this would be.

Its pretty clear what the wrong way would be.

If you do it the wrong way, I dont think anyone is going to sit around and not do anything about it.

You sound like 10yrs old Fleka. Your loss of Montenegro does not mean that you can decide to take a piece of Italy so you get something back, people in Italy might get angry. This is not a game. As I said, if procedure is followed, fine. However, Bosniaks are not in agreement, therefore, if you still decide to do it, chances are, war.

Look at what is happening now though, slowly, everything is getting unified. I really doubt we see RS for much longer. Can BIH join the EU with two different entities and a lack of unity? I dont think so. So I think you know what will happen.
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post #19 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 13:51 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Manijak
When rules are broken, decisions have to be made.

Its pretty clear what the right way of going about this would be.

Its pretty clear what the wrong way would be.

If you do it the wrong way, I dont think anyone is going to sit around and not do anything about it.

You sound like 10yrs old Fleka. Your loss of Montenegro does not mean that you can decide to take a piece of Italy so you get something back, people in Italy might get angry. This is not a game. As I said, if procedure is followed, fine. However, Bosniaks are not in agreement, therefore, if you still decide to do it, chances are, war.

Look at what is happening now though, slowly, everything is getting unified. I really doubt we see RS for much longer. Can BIH join the EU with two different entities and a lack of unity? I dont think so. So I think you know what will happen.
BiH is like a mini-Yugoslavia. It is destined to fail.

PS. Some respect for your elders would be nice too.

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post #20 of 150 (permalink) Old May 24th, 2006, 13:58
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Originally Posted by Fleka
BiH is like a mini-Yugoslavia. It is destined to fail.

PS. Some respect for your elders would be nice too.
The way its currently being conducted, yes.

If its done properly, then, no, I dont think so.

PS I am all for respect, but if you want it, you should stop making elementary comments. Comments like, "we deserve it, its only fair" are very elementary. I can just imagine you saying that and then just crying like a little baby.
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