American Bashing: 9/11 and other stories - Xtratime Community
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 80 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2006, 06:31 Thread Starter
BANNED!
Xtratime Legend
 
Liternit's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02 2003
Location: São Paulo
Teams: Tricolor Paulista
Posts: 23,575
American Bashing: 9/11 and other stories

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...piracy&pl=true

I was watching that documentary (did not finish just saw the first 25min) anyway it will probably end selling a story that 9/11 was orchestrated by the US, which I disagree completely if they did anything was take advantage afterward.

What left me speechless, at least according to the doc, was how America used the public opinion to push two wars Vietnam and Iraq-I, in Vietnam fake attacks were forged against American ships and in Iraq first war they used a deposition of an Kuit girl that had her names secured saying Iraqis troops were killing babies in hospitals by shutting off incubators, after that deposition the public opinion was more lenient about a war in Iraq. An investigation by Canadian media found no such reports as described and finds that the girl was in fact daughter of a Kuwait ambassador which had been coached by an American PR firm to give the deposition.

Bash beging, do you believe its true?
Liternit is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 80 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2006, 18:54
International
 
croatian batman's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11 2003
Location: NYC
Teams: Cro NT, NY Islanders, USA NT, Notre Dame
Posts: 5,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lite®nit
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...piracy&pl=true

What left me speechless, at least according to the doc, was how America used the public opinion to push two wars Vietnam and Iraq-I, in Vietnam fake attacks were forged against American ships and in Iraq first war they used a deposition of an Kuit girl that had her names secured saying Iraqis troops were killing babies in hospitals by shutting off incubators, after that deposition the public opinion was more lenient about a war in Iraq. An investigation by Canadian media found no such reports as described and finds that the girl was in fact daughter of a Kuwait ambassador which had been coached by an American PR firm to give the deposition.

Bash beging, do you believe its true?

Vietnam and the bogus attack in Tonkin (I believe) with the story of the Kuwaiti stories of babies being kicked out of incubators isn't a fair comparison. Tonkin probably did sway some people to support a military action in Vietnam. The "they attack us first" logic probably got some support. (Even if Tonkin story never came out we probably would've gone to war anyways) I doubt the story of the dead babies influenced much public opinion. Most of the public support for Desert Strom came from the fact that Iraq invaded a small defenseless nieghbor. And their were other stories of Saddam crimes that were true that were widely reported. But to just focus on this one story that turned out not to be true is grasping at straws by the film maker.

I think in a build up to any war the enemy will be portrayed as worse than they might acytually be. But in the end I don't that rhetoric builds support as much as other much bigger factors. Ie: Japan was portrayed by the American gov't and media as evil people, baby killer etc. Prior to the US entering WW2. But public support didn't turn against them until they bombed Pearl Harbor. Rhetoric only goes so far.

Last edited by croatian batman; May 7th, 2006 at 18:59.
croatian batman is offline  
post #3 of 80 (permalink) Old May 7th, 2006, 22:30 Thread Starter
BANNED!
Xtratime Legend
 
Liternit's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02 2003
Location: São Paulo
Teams: Tricolor Paulista
Posts: 23,575
I think this sort of practise has power, it tips enough the balance in favor for those who want war. In both wars against Iraq there were no reasons to risk the soldiers as Iraq was never a threat to US security. (not that going in the first war was wrong, but the way the public was played for support was)

Considering how 9/11 was a huge boost to go to war again, you can see how important is having the voters behind in order to go to war and they do everything including lie to make it possible. In a lot of forums I still see some americans relate Iraq with the war on terror. And that sucks, simply because its shows the manipulation works.

As I speak there is a new wave of populism going in South America, Moralez the puppet of Hugo Chaves has just seized gas fields under the premisse of giving back to the country. Which is a complete mock, as his intentions are to gain power and stay in power for as long as he can. Now we have Bolivia, Venezuela and Cuba (with Chaves as the leader) off to save latin america from the US.

But the truth is we are screwed, they will line up their pockets and the people will continue ignorant and poor. With our president, Lula, laughing and saying its Bolivia´s choice and we have to respect their sovereignty. As if stealing millions from Brasil, Spain and England have anything to do with that, there are contracts that need to be respected. But since our stupid president was always elbow rubbing with them before elected and was a lefty marketing wise he chooses to respect and laugh, without fighting for a 2 billion investment.

I´m tired of the good guys ****ing everyone over and tired of the bad guys (US) ****ing everyone over. Politicians should all be hanged.
Liternit is offline  
 
post #4 of 80 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2006, 02:09
Nasty Woman
Forum Manager
Xtratime Legend
 
Humbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11 2000
Location: USA
Teams: Argentina, Lazio, Fiorentina
Posts: 22,582
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lite®nit
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...piracy&pl=true

I was watching that documentary (did not finish just saw the first 25min) anyway it will probably end selling a story that 9/11 was orchestrated by the US, which I disagree completely if they did anything was take advantage afterward.

What left me speechless, at least according to the doc, was how America used the public opinion to push two wars Vietnam and Iraq-I, in Vietnam fake attacks were forged against American ships and in Iraq first war they used a deposition of an Kuit girl that had her names secured saying Iraqis troops were killing babies in hospitals by shutting off incubators, after that deposition the public opinion was more lenient about a war in Iraq. An investigation by Canadian media found no such reports as described and finds that the girl was in fact daughter of a Kuwait ambassador which had been coached by an American PR firm to give the deposition.

Bash beging, do you believe its true?
It's all true. The US did manufacture fake evidence. And it is the only country ever to do so. No other country anywhere would do such a thing, and it has never happend in recorded history. Even the insane rantings of Adolph Hitler were mere pittances compared to the evil machinations of the US government which has been doing the work of the devil since 1776. In fact the science of war propaganda was invented by George Washington. I know this because I did my master's thesis on the topic.

But tomorrow is new day and new chance. -- Alija

Nel cielo biancazzurro brilla un'altra stella - In the lightblue sky another star shines. Alija tu non sarai mai sola. Alija you will never be alone.
Humbird is offline  
post #5 of 80 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2006, 04:01 Thread Starter
BANNED!
Xtratime Legend
 
Liternit's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02 2003
Location: São Paulo
Teams: Tricolor Paulista
Posts: 23,575
Humbird

again with the brilliance, excusing the crocks. Nice job, so just because every single president before Lula screwed Brasil I should cut some slack for him as well? With that logic no wonder politicians do what they do, they have voters such as your self happy to be the puppet and always waving the flag, no matter how ****ed up in the ass you. That explains why even in the most rich country you have politicians controlling the masses


also if you ever bothered to even read or watch the link, they make a paradigma to Hitler´s Germany, I think the US should be proud of doing something similar to the nazy germany.
Liternit is offline  
post #6 of 80 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2006, 04:29
Forum Manager
Legend
 
Nero's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09 2000
Teams: F.C. Juventus of Turin
Posts: 17,460
Very informative link, kudos Liternit.

It's plain to see that if one factors in the historical perspective, as well as the logical inconsistencies pertaining to the official version of the 9/11 plot, there is a lot to be suspicious and doubtful of.

Of course, the average American simply doesn't know better than to blindly accept the purported truth from their government.

“Dogs celebrate on the corpses of lions, thinking they’ve won, but lions remain lions and dogs stay dogs"
-Stefano Sturaro
Nero is offline  
post #7 of 80 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2006, 04:51
Community Analyst
Forum Manager
Xtratime Legend
 
Pila's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05 2000
Location: Noo Joisy!
Teams: Benfica; Portugal
Posts: 32,844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero

Of course, the average American simply doesn't know better than to blindly accept the purported truth from their government.
I don't know anything about average Americans, but it's Americans that usually come up with these conspiracy theories implicating the government from a bad case of hemorrhoids to random meteor showers. See were free to do that here, no matter how delusional one's agenda takes 'em. On the other hand, we can at least say that here we have a choice in the agenda we choose to take. I can name a few countries - if they even qualify as such - where the choice of one's agenda orientation are limited to the choices of the state and cleric, or see themselves as the weekend's top attraction in a public square.

If Irony were nails, you'd be Swiss cheese.

Freedom is the great liberator of the mind – it threatens only the comfort of the sequacious intellect.

"ai am person tu!!!!"

Fight the Power!!!

http://members.cox.net/fantasychamp/power.jpg
Pila is offline  
post #8 of 80 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2006, 05:29
International
 
croatian batman's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11 2003
Location: NYC
Teams: Cro NT, NY Islanders, USA NT, Notre Dame
Posts: 5,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lite®nit
I think this sort of practise has power, it tips enough the balance in favor for those who want war. In both wars against Iraq there were no reasons to risk the soldiers as Iraq was never a threat to US security. (not that going in the first war was wrong, but the way the public was played for support was)
Lit to tell you the truth in the buildup in the first Gulf War old man Bush was pretty honest and up-front about the reasons.

Their was a famous line from James Baker the then secretary of state to congress he said "this war is about jobs". In otherwords oil! The buildup to really the first Gulf War was suprisingly fairly honest. Iraq can't control most of the world's oil supplies. Combining Iraq and Kuwaits reserve with the potential of invading the Saudi's reserve that was the logic used by everyone that administration That was the primary goal and the secondary is liberating Kuwait. This Bush has changed his main reasons several times for this Iraq war. But old man Bush was pretty honest about why we had to go to war in Iraq 91.

And Lit regarding getting involved in conflicts that don't affect our national security. Really since the Cold War we've been in numerous conflicts that don't affect our national security directly. Yugoslavia, Haiti, Grenada, Somalia, and a bunch of others had really zero to do with our national security. But coming from an American prespective we are a superpower and in that unique role we always are called upon to solve world problems. Not to sound rude but if Thailand invaded Laos tomorrow the Laotion president ain't going to give a call to the Brazilian PM or President (Unless he wants to organize a football game ). Giving Bush a call would be high on that Laos president priority list. I think the US is always in a unique difficult position that many people never accept or never understand.
croatian batman is offline  
post #9 of 80 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2006, 05:43
Forum Manager
Legend
 
Nero's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09 2000
Teams: F.C. Juventus of Turin
Posts: 17,460
Dissenters disatisfied with the Bush administration have only recently had the ability to "freely" state their objections towards American policy, without being labelled as being 'anti-American' and/or 'terrorist-sympathizers'. These people are on the fringe of the American political spectrum, rountinely marginalized by the majority of group-thinkers who take what the government says as the gospel truth. It's only now with ever mounting discontent with how the post-war occupation of Iraqi is going, that people are increasingly starting to realize what a shambolic affair the whole thing has been. Now, as opposed to when it actually occurred when the rest of the world knew.

Where else in today's world can a country go to war with another one, while contravening international law, duping the vast majority of their own population with false pretenses and fabricated information, and still re-elect the same government? Only state-side one would think.

What's the point of democracy if people are not bothered with the truth? None whatsoever, you're just chess pieces.

Nowhere has the politics of fear been as effectively used and had such disasterous consequences for the rest of the world, than the U.S. The documentary that Liternit posted sums that up quite well and with historical perspective.

“Dogs celebrate on the corpses of lions, thinking they’ve won, but lions remain lions and dogs stay dogs"
-Stefano Sturaro
Nero is offline  
post #10 of 80 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2006, 14:55
International
International
 
RedEagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: 09 1999
Location: Stadium of Light
Teams: Benfica, Portugal
Posts: 5,629
Speaking of America bashing, what's a castrated islamic fundamentalist Saudi and an effiminate Communist Brazilian have in common?

They both have problems getting Bush!


copyright of RedEagle Inc.

Hummy make sure that the Colbert Report, Stewart and that fraud on HBO pay handsomely for this line.

....There was also a conspiracy against Sporting to keep them out of 1st place by 26 points. The conspiracy is about to be revealed in a public judicial forum soon enough. It's hasn't anything to do with Golden whistles, but with Golden Showers, as Sporting Administration and coaching has conspired to piss all over themselves this season.
RedEagle is offline  
post #11 of 80 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2006, 15:21
Community Analyst
Forum Manager
Xtratime Legend
 
Pila's Avatar
 
Join Date: 05 2000
Location: Noo Joisy!
Teams: Benfica; Portugal
Posts: 32,844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero

What's the point of democracy if people are not bothered with the truth?
The truth and you have about as much of a chance of being on the same page as the annual Hawaiin Tropic Bikini contest moving to Mecca. There’s a difference between being called anti-American by some nut job for voicing an unpopular opinion, and being beheaded for drawing a stick-figure with a funny hat. We're worlds apart here, oh ye, dweller of the sands. Keep running though - the 19th century is almost within your grasp.

Freedom is the great liberator of the mind – it threatens only the comfort of the sequacious intellect.

"ai am person tu!!!!"

Fight the Power!!!

http://members.cox.net/fantasychamp/power.jpg
Pila is offline  
post #12 of 80 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2006, 15:53
Forum Manager
Xtratime Legend
 
bono's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03 2001
Location: in your head
Teams: Il club piu ...
Posts: 43,331
Blog Entries: 1
I am tired of these threads - how many times. Why dont you leave the 9/11 victims rest in peace.

bono is offline  
post #13 of 80 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2006, 16:01 Thread Starter
BANNED!
Xtratime Legend
 
Liternit's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02 2003
Location: São Paulo
Teams: Tricolor Paulista
Posts: 23,575
Croatian

I agree, but lying should not be part of the process. Of course any country with problems will phone the US first, as depending who they support wins the war. But a line should be drawn between helping and using lies to take advantae.

there is no democracy if the head of your government lies for support (thats what dictators do), before the war here nobody that was for the war ever thought for a minute that all the reports were lies. Politicians do not go to war, so it would be nice if they at least respected those who go with the truth.

This will get worse once the energy problems intensify, we will face though times ahead in 15/20 years. Instead of fighting a war people should use the money to find ways around diesel, creating so much chaos for something that will end soon is not worth it. US will have problems in 3 countries: Iraq, Nigeria and Venezuela.

If things heat more in Nigeria US will have to do something, I expect bad things from Venezuela and US cannot use power against Chaves.
Liternit is offline  
post #14 of 80 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2006, 16:09 Thread Starter
BANNED!
Xtratime Legend
 
Liternit's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02 2003
Location: São Paulo
Teams: Tricolor Paulista
Posts: 23,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by bono
I am tired of these threads - how many times. Why dont you leave the 9/11 victims rest in peace.
actually I only found the link because o Flight 93, I was going to post that but forgot. The thread is not about 9/11 but lies mostly told.

Venezuela is cooking something, Nigeria is in big shit and Iraq is the way it is, we have everyone seeking more reserves, costs to dig going higher with a lot of fields peeking already. We are just around the corner for more bullshit.

Did you read what Morales did?
Liternit is offline  
post #15 of 80 (permalink) Old May 8th, 2006, 16:21
Forum Manager
Xtratime Legend
 
bono's Avatar
 
Join Date: 03 2001
Location: in your head
Teams: Il club piu ...
Posts: 43,331
Blog Entries: 1
No I didnt. But as s.o. mentioned Us is not the 1st, not the last and not the only country in the history of the world to use such means to achieve its goals. I am not gonna take sides and say which is better right now, but from teh past, being a commie born child, I surely know that it is better (from most angles) to have US doing it than USSR. may be not for vietamese and the peopel in kambodia (they did teh same when they hit Cambodia/Kampucia if I remember well) though ...

bono is offline  
post #16 of 80 (permalink) Old May 9th, 2006, 18:04
International
 
croatian batman's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11 2003
Location: NYC
Teams: Cro NT, NY Islanders, USA NT, Notre Dame
Posts: 5,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lite®nit
Croatian

I agree, but lying should not be part of the process. Of course any country with problems will phone the US first, as depending who they support wins the war. But a line should be drawn between helping and using lies to take advantae.

there is no democracy if the head of your government lies for support (thats what dictators do), before the war here nobody that was for the war ever thought for a minute that all the reports were lies. Politicians do not go to war, so it would be nice if they at least respected those who go with the truth.

This will get worse once the energy problems intensify, we will face though times ahead in 15/20 years. Instead of fighting a war people should use the money to find ways around diesel, creating so much chaos for something that will end soon is not worth it. US will have problems in 3 countries: Iraq, Nigeria and Venezuela.

If things heat more in Nigeria US will have to do something, I expect bad things from Venezuela and US cannot use power against Chaves.
In this case I don't think their were lies about the war. They're was a clear rush to go to war in Iraq but i don't think the administration flat out lied about the WMD argument. I believe the Germans, French and every major intelligence agency had info that Iraq had WMD's. I just think it was more a case of bad intelligence and we've had numerous cases about that. CIA has goofed numerous times.

And truthfully who exactly didn't think Iraq had any bio, chemical and nuclear weapons. I never heard one person say flat-out that Iraq never had any weapons pre-2003.

With regards about the 9/11 Iraq link Cheney was really the one pushing that and a lying argument could be made their.


And Lit I think the high oil prices is the best thing to happen in this country. American business works great when we're behind. We have a good track record catching up. Everyones fed up with the oil but nobody ever cared enough when it was cheap now with the skyrocketing prices i think we'll finally get started. Your starting to see some progress.

Although we might have some real oil wars with the countries you mentioned and may I add a possible oil race with the Chinese. Maybe the US will be like Mad Max 2 (Road Warrior). Maybe I'll be fighting funky neo-punks in the future with bows and arrows for oil. But i think American business has finally concentrated its efforts towards new fuel sources. On a similar note every time a watch a news program on TV or listen to talk radio everyone is talking about how Brazil is energy independent with the flex cars and ethanol. Alot of people have been asking the question why is Brazil energy independent yet we're addicted in essence? I think a ground swell of public demand is pushing for new energy.
croatian batman is offline  
post #17 of 80 (permalink) Old May 9th, 2006, 18:18
Legend
Legend
 
Andrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04 2001
Location: Toronto
Teams: Partizan
Posts: 15,157
Quote:
Originally Posted by croatian batman
In this case I don't think their were lies about the war. They're was a clear rush to go to war in Iraq but i don't think the administration flat out lied about the WMD argument.

:dielaugh:
Andrix is offline  
post #18 of 80 (permalink) Old May 9th, 2006, 19:16
Flo
Legend
 
Flo's Avatar
 
Join Date: 04 2002
Location: California
Teams: SL Benfica, Liverpool, & AC Milan
Posts: 14,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedEagle
Speaking of America bashing, what's a castrated islamic fundamentalist Saudi and an effiminate Communist Brazilian have in common?

They both have problems getting Bush!


copyright of RedEagle Inc.

Hummy make sure that the Colbert Report, Stewart and that fraud on HBO pay handsomely for this line.
Fricken classic!!!

I love how Liternit purposely tries to stir the pot and then you've got the XT Amabassador of the Middle East in Nero trying to spew his flawed logic. These threads continue to give me a good laugh.
Flo is offline  
post #19 of 80 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2006, 00:20 Thread Starter
BANNED!
Xtratime Legend
 
Liternit's Avatar
 
Join Date: 02 2003
Location: São Paulo
Teams: Tricolor Paulista
Posts: 23,575
croatian

I disagree about the inteligence concerning WMD, most was based in old information and Hans Blinx never found anything, but everyone has their opinions.

As for us being energy independent thats a big load of bullshit, I don´t think ethanol is viable fuel, in large scale it needs a lot resources to plant the sugarcane and after the boom with Flexcars the price of Ethanol/Alcohol has gone up, so much that it has become cheaper to use oil.

It has always been the same case, in 1980 there was a huge boom, but then producers of Ethanol started to burn their fields to rise the price or sell for sugar on the market (when they had contracts to serve the internal market with ethanol for a certain price)

Plus its only usefull for cars, you cannot use that fuel source in the industry.
Liternit is offline  
post #20 of 80 (permalink) Old May 10th, 2006, 19:35
International
 
croatian batman's Avatar
 
Join Date: 11 2003
Location: NYC
Teams: Cro NT, NY Islanders, USA NT, Notre Dame
Posts: 5,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lite®nit
croatian

I disagree about the inteligence concerning WMD, most was based in old information and Hans Blinx never found anything, but everyone has their opinions.

As for us being energy independent thats a big load of bullshit, I don´t think ethanol is viable fuel, in large scale it needs a lot resources to plant the sugarcane and after the boom with Flexcars the price of Ethanol/Alcohol has gone up, so much that it has become cheaper to use oil.

It has always been the same case, in 1980 there was a huge boom, but then producers of Ethanol started to burn their fields to rise the price or sell for sugar on the market (when they had contracts to serve the internal market with ethanol for a certain price)

Plus its only usefull for cars, you cannot use that fuel source in the industry.

Lit I'll take Brazils' position right now over ours..

Also Lit whats the price of a gallon or liter of gas down their. Here's its about 2.90+ a gallon. Is the ethanol any cheaper? Mileage better etc?
croatian batman is offline  
 

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Xtratime Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive. Try to avoid choosing short (like '1'), simple (like 'abcd') and easy to guess passwords (like a name of your favorite team, player, etc)! Complex and long enough passwords, that consists of random string of alphabet and numerical characters, are almost impossible to be stolen and misused.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Linear Mode Linear Mode
Rate This Thread:



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome