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post #1 of 89 (permalink) Old April 11th, 2006, 22:00 Thread Starter
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World Voting?

When your country heads to the ballot box whats the percentage of the electorate that actually vote?

In the US its pitiful 50-65% most of the time. If its over 60% its (very high voter turnout).
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post #2 of 89 (permalink) Old April 12th, 2006, 09:38
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Around 85%-90%. Voting was compulsory till 8 years ago so people are still used to go and vote. But I expect the percentage to drop a bit in each election as time goes by.

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post #3 of 89 (permalink) Old April 12th, 2006, 12:27
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anything bellow 95% would be considered a disaster here, and voting is not compulsory
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post #4 of 89 (permalink) Old April 12th, 2006, 12:52
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In the national elections: 2004 - 77%, 2000 - 67%, 1996 - 77%
Regional and local elections: 2003 - 67%, 1999 - 64%, 1995 - 69%
EU: 2004 - 45%, 2000 - 63%

No complusory. Whenever the internal situation gets more tense, the percentage grows a lot.
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post #5 of 89 (permalink) Old April 18th, 2006, 13:09
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Denmark: National elections between 83-87%.
Voting was never compulsory here.

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post #6 of 89 (permalink) Old April 18th, 2006, 16:00
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95%-97% Voting is compulsory here and I hope it will stay that way.

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post #7 of 89 (permalink) Old April 18th, 2006, 16:57
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Canada the lowest ever was 60% in 2003 and they called it "dismal". Last election it was a little higher than that.
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post #8 of 89 (permalink) Old April 18th, 2006, 19:11
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Dutch parliamentary elections turnout:
1994 - 78%
1998 - 73%
2002 - 79%
2003 - 80%

Dutch municipal elections turnout:
1994 - 65%
1998 - 59%
2002 - 58%

Dutch EU elections turnout:
1994 - 35%
1999 - 29%
2004 - 39%

But for the EU referendum the turnout was 63%. But that was because, after years of frustration, the people could finally vote against the EU, and the vast majority (62%) did just that.

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Last edited by Boyo; April 18th, 2006 at 19:22.
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post #9 of 89 (permalink) Old April 18th, 2006, 19:40
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Why are you in the EU if most Dutch people don't like it?

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post #10 of 89 (permalink) Old April 18th, 2006, 20:35
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Because there's a huge gap between what the people want and what the government decides.

This whole EU thing was set in motion long ago already. At the time, very little information was (made) available about what it would mean. And when we found out, it was already too late. At no point in time had there been a referendum to ask the people what they thought about it, or what they wanted.

Instead, we trusted out elected representatives to do the right thing, but they didn't. They sold Dutch interests down the river, for the sake of being popular with their buddies in Brussels.

Relative to it's size, Holland contributes the largest amount to EU, while they profit the least from it. As if there's any benefit to having the EU at all. As far as I'm concerned we should withdraw from it unilaterally.


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Last edited by Boyo; April 18th, 2006 at 21:39.
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post #11 of 89 (permalink) Old April 19th, 2006, 00:01
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what's up with Belgium? Why are they a "taker" ?

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post #12 of 89 (permalink) Old April 19th, 2006, 00:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boyo
Because there's a huge gap between what the people want and what the government decides.
OK wait a sec...You say turnout for the EU referendum was 63% and as I understand 62% of those polled voted against. That's not a vast majority of the electorate...that's 39% of the electorate. Which goes to say that most people in the Netherlands either are for the EU or don't care either way...because if they did they'd vote on the issue. I guess that answers Humbird's question.
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post #13 of 89 (permalink) Old April 19th, 2006, 01:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrix
That's not a vast majority of the electorate...that's 39% of the electorate.
That's not how election results are determined. It's based on the percentage of people that actually votes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrix
Which goes to say that most people in the Netherlands either are for the EU
How do you figure that?

Usual EU election turnout is around 30%. For the referendum, where the people can finally have their say, it's twice that much. The majority of those voted against. How can you possibly conclude from that that most people are for the EU?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrix
or don't care either way...because if they did they'd vote on the issue.
So you assume. But how can you know what causes someone to vote, or not vote? It can be for all sorts of reasons.

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post #14 of 89 (permalink) Old April 19th, 2006, 01:12
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Look I know how election results are determined. That's very clear to me, thank you very much.

But saying "most people are against the EU" is different. Most people != most voters in a particular election.

Quote:
How do you figure that?
Hey, don't quote me out of context!

I said "either-or". You can equally say "most people are against the EU or don't care either way". I do admit I was taunting a little.

Quote:
So you assume. But how can you know what causes someone to vote, or not vote? It can be for all sorts of reasons.
I'm assuming that if most people (as in the majority, as in 50%+1) are against something, that most people would come out and vote against that something when given the chance. Especially when it's a simple Yes/No question with no electing of politicians involved.

In any case it's the answer to Humbird's question. The fact that only 39% of the electorate for example care enough to vote against the EU (if we interpret it that way) could be the reason why there is no "critical mass" to take Holland out.
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post #15 of 89 (permalink) Old April 19th, 2006, 01:21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humbird
what's up with Belgium? Why are they a "taker" ?
Because Belgium overspent income and under collected taxes for many years. Their government reacted with poor macro-economic policies to the 70's oil price crisis. It hired the redundant work force into the public sector and subsidized ailing industries in order to prop up the economy. As a result, cumulative government debt reached 121% by the end of the 80's.

Two of the five criteria for membership into the EMU, under the Maastricht treaty, were to attain a budget deficit of 3%, and an accumulated debt percentage of 60% of the GDP. Yet, in 1992, Belgium had a 7.1% budget deficit that brought the accumulated debt to 138% of its GDP in 1993.

So it was clear that Belgium could not attain the 60% accumulated debt percentage goal. Nevertheless, Belgium was allowed membership on condition that it made "substantial progress" on its debt problems.

Naturally they didn't. Why should they, when there's an EU that can give them money for nothing. Of course other countries have to pay more, so that the Belgiums can enjoy the wealth that they otherwise wouldn't have. But that's not the Belgium's concern.

That's why they're a taker.

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post #16 of 89 (permalink) Old April 19th, 2006, 01:39
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Have you considered invading, and making Belgium part of Holland?

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post #17 of 89 (permalink) Old April 19th, 2006, 01:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrix
Look I know how election results are determined. That's very clear to me, thank you very much.
I don't think it is clear to you at all, when you say this:

Quote:
But saying "most people are against the EU" is different. Most people != most voters in a particular election.
It's not different. Again, that's how something like that is determined. By voting. The results of a vote are considered representative for the majority. As such, it's no different then a scientific poll. So, if the result of an election, or a referendum, or a poll for that matter, show a certain decisive majority result, you can safely say that's what most people think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrix
I'm assuming that if most people (as in the majority, as in 50%+1) are against something, that most people would come out and vote against that something when given the chance. Especially when it's a simple Yes/No question with no electing of politicians involved.
The reality, however, is not that simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrix
The fact that only 39% of the electorate for example care enough to vote against the EU (if we interpret it that way) could be the reason why there is no "critical mass" to take Holland out.
Again with this "39% of the electorate" thing.

That's not the reason. The government had waged a massive pro-EU campaign. They were all in favour of it, while the majority of the people were not. That's why there's a gap between what the people want, and what the government decides.

Before the referendum, the government said that in case of a majority they would accept the result of the referendum. But as it came closer, and the polls started to show that there might not be a simple majority. They changed their promise and said that only if there was more than a two thirds majority, would they accept the result. But it backfired. The percentage was greater than 60% and in this year's municpal election, the governing parties all lost heavily.

Mercedes bastard & Limburger-loving schmuck

Last edited by Boyo; April 19th, 2006 at 01:53.
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post #18 of 89 (permalink) Old April 19th, 2006, 01:50
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Originally Posted by Humbird
Have you considered invading, and making Belgium part of Holland?
It used to be part of Holland. We're happy to be rid of it. France can have it, if they want.

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post #19 of 89 (permalink) Old April 19th, 2006, 01:57
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I love seeing Boyo so passionate so, continuing to argue just for the sake of arguing

Quote:
It's not different. Again, that's how something like that is determined. By voting. The results of a vote are considered representative for the majority. As such, it's no different then a scientific poll.
No, it isn't. First, it's not like a scientific poll because a scientific poll takes a random representative sample. This includes undecided people, as you can see from poll results. An election result is not representative necessarily since the distribution of voters can be skewed. So there p

Quote:
That's not the reason. The government had waged a massive pro-EU campaign. They were all in favour of it, while the majority of the people were not. That's why there's a gap between what the people want, and what the government decides.
Look, I think you are just trying to fit the majority to your views.
If the majority of the people were so passionately against it, wouldn't there be a party that would make leaving the EU their main campaign promise, and wouldn't that party win?

So again we come to
- either that the people who are against it are not in the majority; or
- most people don't care enough (or at all) about the issue.


It's clear logical deduction.

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post #20 of 89 (permalink) Old April 19th, 2006, 02:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrix
No, it isn't. First, it's not like a scientific poll because a scientific poll takes a random representative sample. This includes undecided people, as you can see from poll results. An election result is not representative necessarily since the distribution of voters can be skewed. So there p
The object of a poll is to predict reality. An election result is reality. If poll results show a certain majority, you can expect it's there. But with election results, you know it's there.

But if you have more faith in polls, then I assume you're aware that polls about election results tend to accurately predict the actual outcome. So if you consider polls representative, but not elections results, then knowing that both the polls and the election results come down to similar results, would hopefully convince you of the validity of my previous statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrix
If the majority of the people were so passionately against it, wouldn't there be a party that would make leaving the EU their main campaign promise, and wouldn't that party win?
Yes, there would and there was. In 2002 Pim Fortuyn made withdrawal from the EU one of his campaign points. And despite him being assassinated three days before the elections, his party achieved the biggest landslide ever in Dutch history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrix
So again we come to
- either that the people who are against it are not in the majority; or
- most people don't care enough (or at all) about the issue.


It's clear logical deduction.

No, because in the Dutch political landscape one party cannot rule by itself. It needs to form a coalition government. Usually with two, or three other parties. Because everyone then gives and takes, the eventual agreed upon approach normally doesn't include any of the strong points of the elections.

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