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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old March 23rd, 2006, 10:33 Thread Starter
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ETA declares permanent cease-fire

ETA declares permanent cease-fire. I'm obviously happy about it, but considering past experiences, I still have to see which is the attitude of ETA and their environment to know how real is this.

This time is different for many aspects. First of all, they're the last terrorist band of Western Europe and they don't have the social comprehension they used to have in the past. In the past, there were several bands like them all around Europe, in Italy, in Germany, in the UK... but it seems something of the past.

In Euskadi, there is already some tiredness of the violence and the tension. ETA always had an important support in Euskadi, even though the majority of the Basques were against the violence, including the nationalists/independentists. The difference is that now, also the ones who tradionally support ETA, seem to believe that this is not the way anymore.

In any case, ETA are still terrorists, so their word can't be believed since the very first moment. So I expect a long process to see if this useless fight finishes for good. Firstly, for Euskadi, who are the main victims, and secondly, for the rest of us.

In that sense, I think that the Spanish government has taken the right steps towards peace and they have the support of the majority of the Spanish people, because everyone wants the peace. The question is how and that is something that we'll figure out in the next months and, probably, years.

I do think that the political questions can not be on the table. ETA do not represent Euskadi. Euskadi is represented by their parliament, which is the place were the debates should be done. But it's obvious that the other questions, like the situation of their people in jail, especially the ones who don't have blood in their hands in a direct way, could be considered, as it happened in other places. You can't give them everything they want, because that would be to surrender to violence, but sometimes a sacrifice has to be done to achieve the main objective, which is peace, IMO.

Aside my worries about the truth of the message of ETA and their true intentions, I am also very worried about the right wing party in Spain, PP. Somehow it seems that they're not happy at all with these news. I'd say that the 90% of what they do is to hit the government using the situations of Catalunya and Euskadi. They always say that the policial way is the only way to finish with ETA, which is naive and they know it, since the problem is social too. But this is the Spanish right wing, they don't care about anything, but getting power no matter how. So that's why they lied about the bombs in March 11th 2 years ago... and they lost for it. I don't doubt they want the end of ETA... as long as it's PP the ones who finish with them. They perfectly know that the government has achieved success with the new law for Catalunya and they know that the success of Zapatero in the negotiations with ETA would be awful for them in the elections. Normally, in all the democratic world, the 2nd party use to have a sense of state responsability. But this is not the case of Spain, where the Spanish right wing doesn't have the roots in a liberal (in the European sense) or democrat-christian or democrat-conservative ideas. PP was founded by Fraga, a minister of Franco, and Aznar was a member of Falange (fascist unique party in Franco's time) in his youth. And, if you know a bit of history, you know the long list of crimes against democracy of the Spanish right wing. I hope they have some sense of responsability right now. But their leader seems very unhappy for these news... too bad.

I hope everyone is in the right level to achieve peace. Starting for ETA and finishing with the democratic parties, and of course, the society in general.

BTW, nothing to do with all this. It's very sad to see how the English and, especially, the American media refers to ETA as "separatist group" and not as "terrorist band".

CNN: ETA declares permanent cease-fire
CNN: ETA truce draws cautious response
BBC: ETA calls for fresh peace moves
ETA: The end of an era
Can Eta truce signal lasting peace?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,,1737256,00.html]The Guardian: ETA declares permanent cease-fire[/url]
The Guardian: Big gain for Spain
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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old March 23rd, 2006, 17:53
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Good. Terrorism maybe was their only resort under Franco's regime, but with Spain becoming democratic and the increasing autonomy of the region the ETA methods have become redundant and counter productive. This will probably make the sepratist movement stronger, although I doubt indpedence is realistic in the next 50 years.
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old March 23rd, 2006, 17:55
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Let's start with the fact I'm happy no more innocent people will die or get hurt by ETA bombs.

However, secondly... how will this affect the situation in Euskadi, what will happen with Basque prisoners, what will happen with Batasuna, how will this affect the 'fight' for independance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koeman4
But it's obvious that the other questions, like the situation of their people in jail, especially the ones who don't have blood in their hands in a direct way, could be considered, as it happened in other places.
There are many, many Basques spread around Spain, as far as possible from Basque Country, who're in jail for very vague unclear reasons.
With that they're threaten very badly, recently two were killed by the Spanish criminal police... and they aren't the only ones... what will happen with these situations? I'm still angy about that btw.
Will the repression finally end? To be honest, I've got my doubts... ETA took the first step, are there steps from the Spanish government to follow now?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Koeman4
Aside my worries about the truth of the message of ETA and their true intentions, I am also very worried about the right wing party in Spain, PP.
Somehow it seems that they're not happy at all with these news. I'd say that the 90% of what they do is to hit the government using the situations of Catalunya and Euskadi.
PP must be very sad now, now they can't critisize Basques anymore for using useless violence... wonder what they'll invent now, now the violence has ended.

http://www.gara.net/dokumentuak/fitx...azpena_eng.rtf

http://www.gara.net/bideoa.htm

Last edited by Knoert; March 23rd, 2006 at 18:14.
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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old March 24th, 2006, 20:43
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This has been insiniuated since months ago because the socialists has been negoiated with the terrorists, this is one of the most shameful acts in the spanish history of politics. Before this fact, already two weeks after those same terrorists attempted against a political partys headquarters in Santoña this is a clear indication that the terrorists ain´t weakened. This is they way to declare "permanent cease fire" so that they can regroup as well as the socialists could strenghten their popularities. With two years away from the next elections, both PP and PSOE want to strenghten their positions. They need ETA for this, but in different ways.

1. It is unacceptable that a band of murderers that counts on near 1000 mortal crimes to it´s name to these heights continue being the one that marks the Spanish political agenda.

2. After the recognition - already public - that the spanish Socialist party, through Jesus Eguiguren, carries four years negotiating with ETA with Arnaldo Ortegui as a speaker, remains shown reliably the treason of that party to Spain and to the victims of the terrorism, thus since they have lied constantly to the public opinion since then and they still continue to do.

3. They want to be reorganized and rearmed and they have obtained guarantees on the part of the negotiators of the Spanish Socialist Party that will be able to continue in the future as a political process that could culminate with the independence, whether way the reactivation of the "Plan Ibarretxe" (that exactly was conditioned to a high one up in the ETA hiearchy) or wheter seeking other ways that already have been discussed. Such as the legalization of Batasuna, celebration of a referendum of Release of the terrorists perhaps not to short, but in the medium term, when the spanish public opinion may have been able to be already conveniently directed

Viva España!

Last edited by IlPrincipe; March 24th, 2006 at 20:55.
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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old March 24th, 2006, 21:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green One
Good. Terrorism maybe was their only resort under Franco's regime, but with Spain becoming democratic and the increasing autonomy of the region the ETA methods have become redundant and counter productive. This will probably make the sepratist movement stronger, although I doubt indpedence is realistic in the next 50 years.
summed my feelings up, i think independence is a tall order mainly because of how other regions (Catalunya) would seek the same path which would not be in the interests of the spainsh state as there economy and standing as a major western player would be compromised.

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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2006, 14:51 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knoert
Let's start with the fact I'm happy no more innocent people will die or get hurt by ETA bombs.

However, secondly... how will this affect the situation in Euskadi, what will happen with Basque prisoners, what will happen with Batasuna, how will this affect the 'fight' for independance?
The situation of Euskadi will clearly improve, since it's a matter of freedom. It's impossible to have a real democracy when the part of the society who are not nationalists are threatened. Euskadi was one of the richest zones of Spain and terrorism has been a stop in all that. Euskadi has grown less than the rest of the country. How are you going to start a company if the next day you're going to have to pay the "revolutionary tax"? That means less investment, less employment, less growth. But aside economic aspect, it's going to mean freedom, where you can say what you think without being killed for it.

The prisoners. I guess that this is something that they'll have to talk. But there is one thing clear, some of them are murderers and the law has to prevail. You can't never forget the victims, that would also be a mistake.

The fight for independence never was in question for me and I guess it's not for the socialist party in the government. ETA is haunted because they're terrorists, not because their ideas. You can be independentist in Euskadi and you can defend these ideas, there's not a problem about it. But let's say the truth about Batasuna, they don't represent Euskadi, they're not even the 3rd party of Euskadi, so their importance can only be meassured in the elections, not because of the guns they have.


Quote:
There are many, many Basques spread around Spain, as far as possible from Basque Country, who're in jail for very vague unclear reasons.
They're spread around Spain, it's true, but it's proven that it is an efficient anti-terrorist weapon. If they weren't doing anything wrong, they wouldn't be in jail. About the vague reasons, this is simply wrong, because they all have a fair judgement. I admit that there could be mistakes, but as in any other legal system. I think that one of the keys of the failure of ETA is the pressure on their environment.

Quote:
With that they're threaten very badly, recently two were killed by the Spanish criminal police... and they aren't the only ones... what will happen with these situations? I'm still angy about that btw.
This is totally false and terrorist propaganda. Don't believe it.

Quote:
Will the repression finally end? To be honest, I've got my doubts... ETA took the first step, are there steps from the Spanish government to follow now?
Which repression? Who doesn't allow a Basque to be nationalist or independentist? In Euskadi, there is more repression on the non-nationalists, if you ask me. Who has to go with bodyguards in Euskadi?

Quote:
PP must be very sad now, now they can't critisize Basques anymore for using useless violence... wonder what they'll invent now, now the violence has ended.

http://www.gara.net/dokumentuak/fitx...azpena_eng.rtf

http://www.gara.net/bideoa.htm
They'll keep inventing any bullshit... as always.
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2006, 15:45 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlPrincipe
This has been insiniuated since months ago because the socialists has been negoiated with the terrorists, this is one of the most shameful acts in the spanish history of politics. Before this fact, already two weeks after those same terrorists attempted against a political partys headquarters in Santoña this is a clear indication that the terrorists ain´t weakened. This is they way to declare "permanent cease fire" so that they can regroup as well as the socialists could strenghten their popularities. With two years away from the next elections, both PP and PSOE want to strenghten their positions. They need ETA for this, but in different ways.
That is funny. So Aznar didn't negotiate, right? They suddenly meet in Switzerland and told them: "Surrender!! Movimiento del Liberación Nacional Vasco!!". Please...

I don't know what ETA will do, but Zapatero has the right to be wrong... just as Aznar was and noone ever told him anything about it. If there is any chance for peace, they have to look for it.

Quote:
1. It is unacceptable that a band of murderers that counts on near 1000 mortal crimes to it´s name to these heights continue being the one that marks the Spanish political agenda.
Tell that to PP, who are the only ones in the whole Spanish parliament who are doing politics with the terrorist topic.

Quote:
2. After the recognition - already public - that the spanish Socialist party, through Jesus Eguiguren, carries four years negotiating with ETA with Arnaldo Ortegui as a speaker, remains shown reliably the treason of that party to Spain and to the victims of the terrorism, thus since they have lied constantly to the public opinion since then and they still continue to do.
Come on, don't be naive. These things don't happen suddenly one day. If any government speaks with dictators, why not with ETA? It's all about achieving peace.

As for the victims, they're with the government, aside the AVT, who are just an arm of PP.

Quote:
3. They want to be reorganized and rearmed and they have obtained guarantees on the part of the negotiators of the Spanish Socialist Party that will be able to continue in the future as a political process that could culminate with the independence, whether way the reactivation of the "Plan Ibarretxe" (that exactly was conditioned to a high one up in the ETA hiearchy) or wheter seeking other ways that already have been discussed. Such as the legalization of Batasuna, celebration of a referendum of Release of the terrorists perhaps not to short, but in the medium term, when the spanish public opinion may have been able to be already conveniently directed
Only ETA know their real intentions, but Euskadi want peace and they know it. And it's false that the Socialist Party has accepted any independence process and you know it.

The legalization of Batasuna is conditioned to their refusal to violence and terrorism.

And the question of the prisoners will be discussed. There will be sacrifices, but peace deserves it... or do we want more deaths?
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2006, 16:08
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About the situation in Euskadi I agree in general, that's not too difficult of course...

With repression I mean of course Basques outside Euskadi, with other words, mainly the prisoners... and the fact Spain just forbids legal democratic parties (where's the evidence?) perhaps it's too off-topic, but you call it totally false and terrorist propaganda, well, perhaps you're right, but you got sources to make sure you're right?

What I know is Spain doesn't take the human rights law too serious and they torture.

There are so much Basque (and not even only Basques) who're just haunted (and not even that) after because of their political ideas... I can name a lot... let's start with Catalan Juanra Rodriguez.

Juanra was arrested at Schiphol (Amsterdam Airport, that's why I start with him, one of very few times these things are in Dutch press). On Spanish demand, Dutch police arrested Juanra because of Spain accused him of 'having informed ETA commandos in Barcelona', source? A tortured prisoner, who immediately after he was released withdrew his declaration.
Is that 'vague'? Yes, it is.
Of course he was not arrested because he informed ETA, he was arrested because he's active in anti-fascism parties, squatter parties, anti-globalizing movements, etc.
He's been 1,5 years in prison in Holland, because of then there wasn't enough evidence anymore, he moved to Spain, I think he's still in jail.
For all details www.freejuanra.org.

Want more examples? I can give you a lot...

'The six in México', they're accused of 'being part of ETA', there should have been found weird money transfers, and 'dangerous computer documents' and a 'dangerous video-tape'... the six say those money transfers are from family who helped them financially pay the journey back to Euskadi, they bought already flight tickets. The Video tape is just a documentary about Euskadi.
Is that 'vague'? Yes it is...
www.6demexico.org

When there's no evidence, how can you arrest people? Beside or these people and many more are in jail for fair or unfair reasons, why not in Euskadi?
When Spain gets arrested Basques, they're put as far as possible from Basque Country... why? Think about their family, are they terrorists too? For them it's almost impossible to bring some visits throughout the years... and of course I don't feel with murderers, for my part they're the Filipinos in jail, but is the majority murderer? I doubt it...

Then Igor Angulo... some facts.
Terrorist propaganda? Let's look to the facts...
Spain says he comitted suicide in his jail... his hands were bound at his back with rope, in a jail where even shoe-lace is forbidden. Prison guards lay him on his bed already, before doctors arrived... afterwards a doctor found that the rope what killed him was still pressing (sory for my bad English at the moment) into his neck, long after he died, which means prison guards did nothing to help him.
Igor was put in jail because of 'membership of ETA' and 'falsification of documents'... and condemned to 34 years in prison... in Cuenca, 600 kilometres from Basque Country.
I'm not saying the Spanish guards killed him, but in theory they did... it looks like they didn't anything to stop him, what kind of sad people are that? And with that... 34 years while you practically did nothing???
Not less important, in his pre-arrest he was taken to hospital because of tortures... he didn't want to admit.

Some more names... Alexander Akarregi, Gabriele Kanze, Paulo Elkoro, Inigo Makazaga Castillo, Gorka Perea Salazar, Eduardo Plagaro Perez. All very doubtable cases.

What I think is Spain, perhaps under the current government it's not that bad, but certainly in Aznar's time, did everything to find any relation between Basques and ETA and accuse them of something.

I'm almost afraid because I've got Basque material on my PC...
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old March 25th, 2006, 18:06 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knoert
About the situation in Euskadi I agree in general, that's not too difficult of course...

With repression I mean of course Basques outside Euskadi, with other words, mainly the prisoners... and the fact Spain just forbids legal democratic parties (where's the evidence?) perhaps it's too off-topic, but you call it totally false and terrorist propaganda, well, perhaps you're right, but you got sources to make sure you're right?
As far as I know, ONLY Batasuna (or however they call themselves, EH, HB;...) is forbidden and it's because of their clear connections with a terrorist band. It's know that Batasuna is just a part of a terrorist organization. But they're not haunted because of the ideas, because a political party like Aralar is perfectly legal. As far as i know, Aralar are a group of people who splited from Batasuna, rejecting violence. They're also abertzale, lefty,... similar ideas, but they reject violence.

I don't think I have to look for links. I mean, it's very public and I'm sure you know this.


Quote:
What I know is Spain doesn't take the human rights law too serious and they torture.

There are so much Basque (and not even only Basques) who're just haunted (and not even that) after because of their political ideas... I can name a lot... let's start with Catalan Juanra Rodriguez.

Juanra was arrested at Schiphol (Amsterdam Airport, that's why I start with him, one of very few times these things are in Dutch press). On Spanish demand, Dutch police arrested Juanra because of Spain accused him of 'having informed ETA commandos in Barcelona', source? A tortured prisoner, who immediately after he was released withdrew his declaration.
Is that 'vague'? Yes, it is.
Of course he was not arrested because he informed ETA, he was arrested because he's active in anti-fascism parties, squatter parties, anti-globalizing movements, etc.
He's been 1,5 years in prison in Holland, because of then there wasn't enough evidence anymore, he moved to Spain, I think he's still in jail.
For all details www.freejuanra.org.

Want more examples? I can give you a lot...

'The six in México', they're accused of 'being part of ETA', there should have been found weird money transfers, and 'dangerous computer documents' and a 'dangerous video-tape'... the six say those money transfers are from family who helped them financially pay the journey back to Euskadi, they bought already flight tickets. The Video tape is just a documentary about Euskadi.
Is that 'vague'? Yes it is...
www.6demexico.org

When there's no evidence, how can you arrest people? Beside or these people and many more are in jail for fair or unfair reasons, why not in Euskadi?
When Spain gets arrested Basques, they're put as far as possible from Basque Country... why? Think about their family, are they terrorists too? For them it's almost impossible to bring some visits throughout the years... and of course I don't feel with murderers, for my part they're the Filipinos in jail, but is the majority murderer? I doubt it...

Then Igor Angulo... some facts.
Terrorist propaganda? Let's look to the facts...
Spain says he comitted suicide in his jail... his hands were bound at his back with rope, in a jail where even shoe-lace is forbidden. Prison guards lay him on his bed already, before doctors arrived... afterwards a doctor found that the rope what killed him was still pressing (sory for my bad English at the moment) into his neck, long after he died, which means prison guards did nothing to help him.
Igor was put in jail because of 'membership of ETA' and 'falsification of documents'... and condemned to 34 years in prison... in Cuenca, 600 kilometres from Basque Country.
I'm not saying the Spanish guards killed him, but in theory they did... it looks like they didn't anything to stop him, what kind of sad people are that? And with that... 34 years while you practically did nothing???
Not less important, in his pre-arrest he was taken to hospital because of tortures... he didn't want to admit.

Some more names... Alexander Akarregi, Gabriele Kanze, Paulo Elkoro, Inigo Makazaga Castillo, Gorka Perea Salazar, Eduardo Plagaro Perez. All very doubtable cases.

What I think is Spain, perhaps under the current government it's not that bad, but certainly in Aznar's time, did everything to find any relation between Basques and ETA and accuse them of something.

I'm almost afraid because I've got Basque material on my PC...
Well... there are cases and cases. I won't ever deny the possibility of tortures in a certain point. But I can't believe that this is any order from the government or a systematic thing.

In the 80s, it's known that the government promoted GAL and members of ETA (and innocent people) were tortured and killed. A minister finished in jail for it and members of high levels of the Administration and the Police. So I believe in the Spanish justice overall.

At the same time, I don't believe what some people do. ETA always says that they're tortured and I think it's just another way to look like the victims. They always do, they always denounce the police.

The links you provide are one-sided. If you read what the government says, they'll say that they are members of ETA. As I say, I believe in the fairness of the Spanish justice. I believe in the tribunals over any link of anti-system or pro-ETA pages.

Although there could be mistakes in a certain point, the Spanish justice is the justice of a democratic system and there are not denounces against it. This is not Saudi Arabia. I may have doubts about the police, but not about the justice.

About the policy of prisoners. Well, it's a matter of security. I don't think it's good to put them together so they can keep in contact and keep doing activities from jail. I'm sorry for the families of the terrorists, but I am more sorry for the people who died or got wounded or got kidnapped or stolen. The "etarras" are not victims, but assassins. As I said before, if they hadn't done anything wrong, they wouldn't be in jail and they wouldn't have these problems.

I would always listen to any denounce of toruture, but the credibility of ETA is below zero.

Juanra. I don't know if he was judged yet, but I understand that there is preventive jail for someone suspicious of terrorism. Because if he's really a terrorist, he can escape.

The 6 of Mexico. The same. If they don't have anything to hide, they should go to the tribunals, where they have to be proven guilty. I don't think they're just haunted for having a couple of DVDs.

About Igor Angulo. There will be an explanation. The same that the etarras are innocent until proven guilty, the same goes for the state. As I said, I won't ever believe the pro-ETA propaganda from the start, because they constantly lie. There will be a forensic report and we'll see. But you're wrong about one thing, he had 34 years because "membership in a terrorist band, falsification of documents AND ALSO for having explosives and illegal tenency of guns". 34 years is okay for someone who does these things, if you ask me. If you have weapons and the intention to kill, you can't be in the streets.

I really try to be objective in all this. I'm not anti-Basque at all and you know it. But for me, still the government and the justice of a democratic country have much more credibility than a terrorist band and their environment.

If you don't believe in justice, you can't believe in anything. The people who are judge, sometimes are guilties and sometimes released free. So I don't think there's repression.

And don't worry for the Basque stuff...nothing will happen to you,... unless you have a list to kill politicians or whoever.
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old March 26th, 2006, 18:01
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This is for Knoert, friend of ETA:

JuanRa (aka Juan-Ramon) is a well defined member of ETA whom´s activity was spot to the Netherlends in the cooperation with their police which have the authority since ETA is classified as a Terroristgroup within the whole European Union society. They should of course be threatened as any prisoner, hard but fair. But of course they shouldn´t be send home to the Basque Country in were the terrorists are threatened like angels. The same is with "6deMexico" who is part of an "Internet revolution" called "The Basque Diaspora" were they put "Makekos" on their "revolutionary deathlists" as well as high graded politicians. This with the financial and social support of this very terroristband. The leftist also known as AFA and other communists has of course listen to there messages since their "revolutionary agenda" is warmly welcomed within organisations such as theirs.

Igor Angulo Cry me a river. The member of ETA Igor Angulo, also known as Igor Miguel Angulo Iturrate ("Etarrate") declared suicied from prison sources which mean they SAW when he committed suicied. His ownership was to a armed band, forgery, possession of explosives and deposit of weapons. Etarrate was personally arrested in his flat of Navarre with an arsenal of weapons, weapons such as various assault rifles (one of them with telescopic sight), four guns, a grenade launcher and grenades besides document. Likewise there were transmitters and receivers for the activation of car bombs (around thirty of them), electronic detonators, plates of manuals, false registrations for the production of explosives, material for robbery of vehicles, a scanner, magnets for "limpet mines", an important quantity of money (probably robbed money from the basques criminal actitivity at Tenerife or "the party Islands") and documents of false identity. Not exactly was this for "hunting in Vizcaya"

Etarrate, oh Itarrate, was besides, related to the infrastructure group named "Group Vizcaya" who was dismantled in February the 23 1995 and with the same group also dismantled in November 1994 with the ones that devised information on the vehicle of a nacional police that served so they could explode the same vehicle.
http://www.libertaddigital.com/notic...276273132.html

Koeman4,

40 years of murdering, abducting, extorting and creating death to thousands of people simply by being in disagreement with them? You don´t creates any agreement with those, you don´t even negotiates with them. You crush them. Making them facing the justice and letting the people be the judges.

Anybody with a minimum of common sense knows that the murderers of forty years ago are the same of Ortegui the day before yesterday. The same. And Zapatero ain´t willing to negoitate the autonomy of the Basque society (he said that in the congress recently) occationly to Rajoys repeated questions at the subject.

Zapatazo has already payed a political price without motive in Catalonia, doing secessionist and openly anticonstitutional concessions. Why does he not going to do it in the Pais Vasco when he now has the chance to be seen as the president who made ETA comming to an end? He ain´t doing it when Spain needed it most and therefore i only remember him from that he negoitated with terrorists and didn´t do anything that would bring some stabilization in Spain for a while.

Therefore some developments under this "permanent cease fire" could erase a possible sucession of events under or after this period:

-Basque Nationalist Party, EA, PCTV and EB, they will present us a new statutory reform. Another new one named "Plan Malaletxe" that will made the Catalonian Estatut looking like a cartoon in it´s demandory.

-Basque Socialist Group will subscribe the generality of the agreement, but showing it´s disagreement with certain aspects (the same thing that they did with the Basque budgets) and will take advantage to break totally with PP, and accuse the same of not willingly to collaborate for the obtain "peace".

And so forth. Before this context, vascongadas will have a new Statute of ambitious autonomy and the same murderers or terrorists walking down the streets, PNV will be looking like "liberals" while a legalized Batasuna continue murdering. All happy

Viva España!
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old March 26th, 2006, 20:08 Thread Starter
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Koeman4,

40 years of murdering, abducting, extorting and creating death to thousands of people simply by being in disagreement with them? You don´t creates any agreement with those, you don´t even negotiates with them. You crush them. Making them facing the justice and letting the people be the judges.
This is something that even PP don't believe. You perfectly know that the problem of ETA is a social problem. They're not GRAPO, who don't have any social support. In a previous post, you said that killing is easy. They can be weak, but they could always find an easy target.

I wouldn't negotiate any political issue with them, because the representation of the Basques is in their parliament and everyone know that ETA-Batasuna is a minority.

At the same time, if there is a way to find peace, it must be tried. Just as Suárez, González and Aznar (despite his denial) did.


Quote:
Anybody with a minimum of common sense knows that the murderers of forty years ago are the same of Ortegui the day before yesterday. The same. And Zapatero ain´t willing to negoitate the autonomy of the Basque society (he said that in the congress recently) occationly to Rajoys repeated questions at the subject.
Noone denies that they are murderers, but if they're true in their words this time, then it's worth to try it.

The autonomy of the Basque country can be negotiated, because it's a process that is well established in the Constitution of 1978. And there are not risks, because the Tribunal Constitucional can't stop any law against the Constitution. The PNV knows that they need the agreement with PSOE (at least) to succeed in any project about the Estatuto and PSOE will only accept it, if it's constitutional.

Quote:
Zapatazo has already payed a political price without motive in Catalonia, doing secessionist and openly anticonstitutional concessions. Why does he not going to do it in the Pais Vasco when he now has the chance to be seen as the president who made ETA comming to an end? He ain´t doing it when Spain needed it most and therefore i only remember him from that he negoitated with terrorists and didn´t do anything that would bring some stabilization in Spain for a while.
Zapatero was betrayed by Maragall, when the president of the Generalitat passed a project that had many aspects which were not according to the Constitution. In any case, it was a project of law and not a law, so for the ones who have some law knowledge, it couldn't be anti-constitutional, because it had to pass the approval of the Congress.

After the approval of the Congress, you can like the project or not (only PP and ERC voted "no", isn't it ironic?), but it's perfectly constitutional, unless the Tribunal Constitucional says the opposite (as far as I know, Acebes-Zaplana-Rajoy aren't the Tribunal Constitucional). The TC already denied the petition of PP, so the law is perfectly legal.

As a consequence, what you say doesn't make any sense, because even if Zapatero (the Congress actually) accepts an anti-consitutional law, the TC could turn it down. This is not a dictatorship and the TC works with independence (and you can't deny it when most of their members are conservative!!).

The process is safe.

Quote:
Therefore some developments under this "permanent cease fire" could erase a possible sucession of events under or after this period:

-Basque Nationalist Party, EA, PCTV and EB, they will present us a new statutory reform. Another new one named "Plan Malaletxe" that will made the Catalonian Estatut looking like a cartoon in it´s demandory.

-Basque Socialist Group will subscribe the generality of the agreement, but showing it´s disagreement with certain aspects (the same thing that they did with the Basque budgets) and will take advantage to break totally with PP, and accuse the same of not willingly to collaborate for the obtain "peace".

And so forth. Before this context, vascongadas will have a new Statute of ambitious autonomy and the same murderers or terrorists walking down the streets, PNV will be looking like "liberals" while a legalized Batasuna continue murdering. All happy
The Basque Parliament has the right to present a project to modify or even set a new Estatuto de Autonomía and it's perfectly established in the Constitución.

But as I said before, the politicians can do whatever, but at the end of the day, even if the Congress votes an anti-constitutional law, the TC can turn it down. This is how it's established in the Constitución that PP "loves" (to manipulate).

Like it or not, this is what the Constitucion, the LRJPAC and the LOFAGE says: "La Administración Pública actua con pleno sometimiento a la Ley y al Derecho". The Government nor the Congress can do whatever they want and they're subordinated to the law. So they can't make an illegal law, because the Tribunals control the activities of the Government and the Parliaments.

So your prediction is unlikely, if not impossible. I don't know if Euskadi will have a new Estatuto or not, but if they have it, I'm 100% sure that it'll be legal and according to the Constitution... as the Estatut de Catalunya.
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The Terror Beneath Basque Beauty - The situation in the Basque Country.

International tourists flock to Spains scenic Basque region, lured by it´s fine beaches, green, mountainous landscape, delicious food and picturesque locals. They return raving about their wonderful vacations without ever encountering the blunt reality of civic life in the region: a Facist movement holds the region in it´s grip - terrorizing the population with killings and death threats, throttling democracy and leaving citizens mute and intimidated.

True, people in the US and Europe catch occasional news items of car bombings ord kidnappings by some outfit called ETA, a Basque terrorist movement, whose name, Euskadi ta Askatasuna, means "freedom for the Basque Land". But they do not realize that the threat it´s not confined to separate, isolated incidents. More than 5000 people in the three Basque provinces of northern Spain maintain round-the-clock security guards. ETA terrorists have killed over 1000 people in the last four decades. Hundred thousands have fled the region, fearing for their lives.

Accusations of facism can be thrown around too gliby. But the term fits the Basque separatist movement. Fascist regimes forcibly suppress opposition and critisicism, while emphasizing aggressive nationalist and racist feeling.

Distinct rascism permeates the movement, handed down by Sabino Arana, who founded the Basque Nationalist Party in 1893. Spanish immigrants, especially working-class, are called, Maketos, "stain," and the terms extends to anyone born outside the Basque region. Exuding a belief in racial purity, Arana spoke against mixed marriages, declaring "We, the basques, must avoid the mortal contagion, maintain firm our faith in our ancestors and the serious religiosity that distinguishes us..."

To hold office in the Basque nationalist clubs (Batzokis, pron. Bachokees), which Arana divided into three categories, one had to have pure Basque lineage. Only those who had four Basque last names would be considered. with such parentage the true Basque type would be revealed. In "Cómo somos?"--"What are we like?" - Arana defined Basques as tall, energetic and agile, as well as intelligent and noble, and, of course, manly.

Basque racism has a unique linguistic component. Nationalist stress linguistic purity as much as social class. It is hard to get a job unless fluent in Basque, a difficult language, whose grammar and vocabulary bear no relation to contemporary Western languages. It does not matter if the job actually does not require Basque. Everyone must learn and speak the language, or be reduced to whatever position is open after less-qualified but fluent Basque speakers have taken the better jobs. Over 150 teachers of various subjects were recently fired – not for poor classroom performance, but for failing a Basque language proficiency exam.

And Aranas idels live. A year ago, and in commemoration of his 100th death anniversary, the nationalist leaders Javier Arzallus, (president of the Basque Nationalist party), Juán José Ibarretxe (pron. Ibarreche, president of the Basque Country), and Juán M. Atutxa (pron. Atucha, President of the Basque Parliament) declared: "We are not embarrassed, we freely embrace and inherit Sabino's thought. We are convinced that we will achieve the goals he established in the future".

The separatists seek to unite French provinces bordering with Spain (Lapurdi, Suberoa and Benavarre) with Viscaya and Alava, They also demand the province of Navarra, which brings another level of conflict to the table. Only five percent of people in this province, which lies outside of the Basque region, consider themselves Basque.

Ironically, Basque domination is a reflex of the 40-year dictatorship of Francisco Franco. He forbade the use of Basque (Euskera, pron. Euskara) Gallego, and Catalán, the three dialects on the iberian peninsula other than the native spanish. Spanish was the official language for all. People found speaking basque were persecuted and incarcerated.

Five years after his death in 1976, all three dialects and regional flags were legalized. The dialects were subsidized for use among their autonomous communities in text books, literature, traffic signs, printed legal forms, public service offices, art catalogues, etc.

The Basque nationalist give back to the non-nationalist what Franco had inflicted on them. Those who oppose self-determination from the iberian Peninsula are automatically called "españolistas", "pro-spanish", a word still synomous with "franquista", pro-Franco.

For nationalists there is no middle ground and no post-Franco history. One is with them or with Franco´s old regime. Nationalists infuse the Spanish flag with Francos stigma. Anyone foolhardly enough to carry a spanish flag trough streets in the Basque country would be called, "facha, franquista, or españolista"--all words that relate to the fascism of Franco and his followers.

Politically today, the ruling nationalist party harvest separatist ambitions, but disclaims violence. It is rare to find a nationalist on ETA´s target lists or among its victims. Both are on the same quest. One side does dirty job of killing, the other the political work.

According to historian and poet Jon Juaristi, Basque natonalism is a melancholic reaction to Sabino Aranas ideals. Nationalist stories are told to children with revenge and credutility. Time makes the stories real. Most stories speak about the heritage of the Basque race, and how troughout history oppressors like Franco were determinant to abolish their culture.

The Ibarretxe Plan

The lehendakari or president of the Basque country, Juan José Ibarretxe´s policy also tries to control class status, so that Basque ethnicity prevails over others.

Ibarretxe has presented José Luis Zapatero, President of Spain, with a new plan, "The Ibarretxe Plan", which looks and reads like the Constitution of a sovereign State - as if the Basque Country were not an autonomous region of Spain, but already a self-determining country. The plan proposes to categorize individuals in the region as "Basque" or "non-Basque" citizens.

Basque anthropologist Juán Aranzadi has compared the proposed status of non-Basque resident of non-Basque resident to that of the Palestinians in Israel. This plan defies the Spanish constitution, and implicitly attacks established principles of solidarity and civil integration of all regions in Spain. It is clearly not democratic in its content, since people would receive privilegies and opportunities according to their possession of Basque citizenship.

More than 400 artists and intellectuals have opposed the plan in a manifesto, demanding that the Basque Governement guarantee democratic freedom in the region.

The Lehendakari is inaccurate. Less than one-third of the Basque population wants independence. "The Basque country has been, is and will always be civilized", declared Ibarretxe to the members of the nations parliament, and asked "why does Spain refuse to have a dialogue, what do you fear"?

Fernando Savater, philosophy professors and writer, answered his question in an article in El Pais the following day: "We fear losing our lives if we show opposition to you".


Basque elections

Elections in the Basque region are not democratic. In many villages and small towns, candidates of political parties who oppose self-determination drop their names from the ballots under lame, but understandable, fears of repercussions from ETA. In some communities, election day finds on the ballot only representatives of nationalist and other separatist parties.

Elkarri - an organization that works for civic solidarity through peaceful dialogue, put its members forwards to fill the empty political party´s ballots. This way to people can vote for Partido Popular, the Socialist Party, or any other threatened group. It´s a nice try at keeping the appearance of democracy, but it doesn´t really work. In small communities few take the risk of voting honestly. It is safe to just not participate.

Juán José Ibarretxe did not win with a majority of votes on the last election in April. Three weeks later, he was sitting down negotiating with extremist Basque leader Arnaldo Ortegi, whose party openly supports ETA. The president of the Basque country needs to form a coaltion with the terrorists supporters in order to stay in power. The population both, in the Basque country and in Spain is up in arms.

ETA Threats and kills

"We are yet to have elections free of violence in the last twenty five years", said Maria San Gil. She is Partido Populars candidate running against Ibarretxe. "The worst for me is weekends, when I stop being a politician and I'm just a mother", says San Gil in an interview for El Diario Vasco, while she watches her young children play outside from her apartment window.

She cannot take them to the playground. Her presence would endanger the kids and other people lives. She has had 24-hour bodyguards since 1997, when ETA assassinated her colleague Gregorio Ordoñez, while they were having lunch at a restaurant in San Sebastián.

It is not just bombs that people feared. ETA also sends letters to individuals, small and large business owners threatening them or their families, unless the recipents pay a so-called "revolutionary tax".

No one knows how many are intimidated and how much people have paid, but estimates range from 30,000 to 300,000 Euros ($40,000 to $400,000).

Business owner Ramón Martinez Arocena refused to pay the tax. He recived a letter, saying simply: "Te ajusticiaremos" ("you will be killed"). He fled the Basque country.

A prime example of the terrorist atmosphere is Mikel Azurmendi. He has a long Basque lineage, is an acclaimed Basque language poet, an Antrophology professor at the university of the Basque country, and a former member of ETA. He is, over all, a sharp critic of their violent methods. Azurmendi has been on ETA´s death list for several years now. ETA militants are enrolled in the University where he teaches. Any of Azurmendis student could have been his executioner. "There have been moments when I was teaching a class at the University that felt as if I were doing it for the last time,". After several attempts against his life, he had to leave his home, then his town, and disappear into nowhere, to stay alive. Only a few close friends and family members know where he is.

Asphyxiated by the lack of freedom and fearful for their lives, about 400.000 people have fled the area over the last 20 years. Many of those who have fled have united and founded the democratic Basque diaspora in Madrid to make sure their voices are still heard in the Basque country. While the Basque government goes out of its way to fight for the "cause" of the terrorists imprisoned in Spanish jails, it has done nothing for those who have been forced to leave the region, much less for their return.

The church and Nationalism

The Catolic Church has a strong presence among the nationalists. It has issued no criticism of ETA attacks. Actions within the Basque country. In fact, the organisation was born in intellectual. Jesuit schools and seminaries during Francos dictatorship. Many Basque nationalists equate their religious faith with their political beliefs.

A few courageos priests have denounced ETA´s terrorist initimidation and criticized the ruling nationalist party. One of them, jesuit Antonio Beristain, saw his courage and principle rewarded by removal from his parish by his bishop. He too fled under a barrage of threats.

In May 2003, over 500 basque priests sent a letter to Pope John Paul II, defending the right to self-determination, and asking the pope to demand that the spanish church apologize for condemning criminal Basque actions.

Fernando Savater, in a recent speech as a member of Basta Ya! - a citizen initiative to fight terrorism and political violence in the basque country stated: "the defense of violence, and the maintenance that Spain is the enemy and invader of the Basque country, is illegal. It should not be taught in schools, as it does. Nor should those concepts appear in the media. Furthermore, the Basque Government should not fund it.

The Basque Department of Education has imposed two curriculums, Modelo A and Modelo B, to teach children through high school. In the first one, children are taught all subjects in basque. Spanish is taken as a foreign language for three hours per week. In the second model half the subjects are taught in basque, half in spanish.

There used to be Modelo C, in which everything was taught in spanish, and basque was just a subject. Now, people are encouraged to follow Modelo A, since it makes the most sense if one wants to live and work there. At the same time though, people are limiting themselves to always live there. These students speak spanish with no problem, however they can not write it. Modelo A schools get more funding from the Government, and the separatist message and hatred towards spaniards is woven into the schools discourse.

There are pro-nationalist newspaper like Deia and Gara. The second one supports ETA, as well as acting as a platform for the group to communicate with the people and explain their activites.

The consesus among people involved is that dialogue is impossible. There can be no dialogue when one of the parties is holding a gun. The larger basque pluralist society wants to live in a tolerant and peaceful environment. Nevertheless, they are all forced to silence due to fear. They have mastered the art of maintaining a pleasant appearance, while the streets simmer with anger and fear. Because the basques have learned this art so well, the uninformed tourist walks away from the basque country aware of nothing but the flavour of good food, great wine, relaxing beaches, and outdoor nightlife.

Press coverage mutes reality

Why is the situation in the Basque region so poorly understood by foreigners? The press plays a role by avoiding the word "terrorism" when writing about the basque conflict. In a lenghty article that appeared in the New Yorker on February 12, 2001 by John Lee Anderson, the read lead read: "Basque separatists are escalating their war against Spain". Several basque intellectuals living (and hiding) in New York wrote the magazines editor and to the New York Times, complaining about the equality that journalistic "impartiality" conferred on the terrorist side.

It is irresponsible to have a lead like that" , wrote Aurelio Arteta in his letter to the magazines editor, who never replied.

"The members of ETA are not separatists but ethnic ultra-nationalist Basque. It is not a war, but pure fascist terrorism. It is neither a fight against Spain nor its government, but a fight against their Basque neighbors and citizens."
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg otegi_ibarrtxe.jpg (19.3 KB, 55 views)
File Type: jpg village_dancer.jpg (55.8 KB, 54 views)

Viva España!

Last edited by IlPrincipe; April 8th, 2006 at 22:33.
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old April 8th, 2006, 23:54
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Where's your source il principe. We all know you didnt type that.
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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old April 9th, 2006, 01:47 Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Where's your source il principe. We all know you didnt type that.
Let me guess... an English version of a web page called Libertad Digital, which is the one of the most scary fascist sites you can find around. A site that defends the coup d'etat of Franco, to say an example. If it's not this one, it'll be a "brother" site.

Anyway, the article must be old. Since the Plan Ibarretxe was taken to the Parliament and rejected, so it's totally dead now.

It's true that Sabino Arana's original message was quite racist, but it's silly to say it's this way nowadays. That is completely false. The PNV never claims the superiority of a Basque race nowadays.

Another thing to say is that the Plan Ibarretxe proposed that Euskadi was recognized as a "state of free asociation to Spain" or a weird thing like this. More or less, like Puerto Rico and the US. It also left the door open to a future self-determination referendum (article 12).

The Plan recognized the Basque nationality to anyone with administrative citizenship in Euskadi, without discriminations (article 4). The 4th article also says that the Parliament of Euskadi would decide about the way to gain, mantain and lose the Basque nationality. That would create a status where you'd find Basque nationals and "citizens". Something weird and somehow discriminative, but the rights and duties of each group were not established.

Well, there are several points that clearly go against the Spanish Constitution.

Aside the legal tecnicities, the problem I see is that such an important was agreed by the nationalist parties. There was a break between Basque nationalists and "constitutionalists". The Basque government knew they needed the approval of the Spanish Parliament and they knew they were not going to get it in those terms. So it was a way to raise the tension. In any case, this is very simplistic, since that moment was very tense in Spain.

As I said before, the Plan was rejected and is history. I see it as the result of the tension lived under the government of Aznar. This article have easily 2 years.

Nowadays, the situation changed a lot. The Basque nationalists and the current left government still disagree in some aspects, which is normal in politics and it shouldn't be a problem. But the communication between both institutions is quite fluent.

In the near future, I hope that Basque nationalists and the Socialist Party reach agreements to look for a better major law (Estatuto) for Euskadi, but this time with a higher representation. The Spanish right wing is very extremist in this topic, they reject everything, they're Spanish nationalists. They're the ones who were not happy with the "permanent cease-fire"... normal, they only use stereotypes and old fears to make politics. For the Spanish right, the more tense, the better. Now I just hope socialists and Basque nationalists bring some rationality and make something good for Euskadi together.

The most disgusting thing of the article is that he makes the false equation: Basque nationalist=terrorist. In fact, I'm surprised that the Socialist party are not among the terrorists in this article, since supposedly the bombs of Madrid on March 11th were a complot between Basque nationalists, Al Qaeda and the socialists and communists... yeah, don't laugh, they believe it. You can't deny they have a great imagination.

Then some of those things are true, but you know what a terrorist band is about. So nothing new. The current situation and the hopes are to reach peace, so these things disappear for good. To have politics and not guns anymore. Because for me, the most important is that everyone have the right to talk without fear. In that sense, I would NEVER tell a Basque independentist to shut up. They're free to have their ideas and to fight for them in a peaceful way.

IMO, the problem of ETA aren't their goals, I don't question the independentism, even though I don't agree with them. What makes them disgusting is the use of threats and guns to achieve their goals.
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Where's your source il principe. We all know you didnt type that.
That wasn´t the intention. I must have forgot it:

http://ima.hunter.cuny.edu/ima/Collinse/Sites/2.html

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Originally Posted by Koeman4
Let me guess... an English version of a web page called Libertad Digital, which is the one of the most scary fascist sites you can find around. A site that defends the coup d'etat of Franco, to say an example. If it's not this one, it'll be a "brother" site.
Yes, I can imagine.
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post #17 of 21 (permalink) Old April 10th, 2006, 08:09
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Koeman4,

It's true that Sabino Arana's original message was quite racist, but it's silly to say it's this way nowadays. That is completely false. The PNV never claims the superiority of a Basque race nowadays.

"Quite" racist This is the understatement of the century, well these are the words from the PNV-EAJ founder, the designer of the ikurriña and the one countless of Basque people embrace as the "godfather of their nationalist movement":

About Maketos
"A great number of them seem to be undeniable testimony of Darwin's theory, since rather than men they resemble apes, rather less beastly than gorillas: do not search in their faces for the expression of human intelligence nor of any virtue; their eyes only reveal idiocy and brutishness." Bizcaitarra, no. 27.

From Como Somos:

"La fisonomía del bizkaino es inteligente y noble; la del español, inexpresiva y adusta.

El bizkaino es de andar apuesto y varonil; el español, o no sabe andar (ejemplo, los quintos) o si es apuesto es tipo femenil (ejemplo, el torero).

El bizkaino es nervudo y ágil; el español es flojo y torpe.

El bizkaino es inteligente y hábil para toda clase de trabajos; el español es corto de inteligencia y carece de maña para los trabajos más sencillos. Preguntádselo a cualquier contratista de obras y sabréis que un bizkaino hace en igual tiempo tanto como tres maketos juntos.

El bizkaino es laborioso (ved labradas sus montañas hasta la cumbre); el español, perezoso y vago (contemplad sus inmensas llanuras desprovistas en absoluto de vegetación).

El bizkaino es emprendedor (leed la historia y miradlo hoy ocupando elevados y considerados puestos en todas partes... menos en su patria); el español nada emprende, a nada se atreve, para nada vale (examinad el estado de las colonias).

El bizkaino no vale para servir, ha nacido para ser señor ("etxejaun"); el español no ha nacido más que para ser vasallo y siervo (pulsad la empleomanía dentro de España, y si vais fuera de ella le veréis ejerciendo los oficios más humildes).

El bizkaino degenera en carácter si roza con el extraño; el español necesita de cuando en cuando una invasión extranjera que le civilice.

El bizkaino es caritativo aun para sus enemigos (que lo digan los lisiados españoles que atestan las romerías del interior y mendigan de caserío en caserío); el español es avaro aun para sus hermanos (testigo, Santander cuando pidió auxilio a las ciudades españolas en la consabida catástrofe).

El bizkaino es digno, a veces con exceso, y si cae en la indigencia, es capaz de dejarse morir de hambre antes de pedir limosna (preguntádselo a las Conferencias de San Vicente de Paúl); el español es bajo hasta el colmo, y aunque se encuentre sano, prefiere vivir a cuenta del prójimo antes que trabajar (contad, si podéis, los millares de mendigos de profesión que hay en España y sumadlos con los que anualmente nos envía a Euskeria).

Interrogad al bizkaino qué es lo que quiere y os dirá "trabajo el día laborable e iglesia y tamboril el día festivo"; haced lo mismo con los españoles y os contestarán pan y toros un día y otro también, cubierto por el manto azul de su puro cielo y calentado al ardiente sol de Marruecos y España.

Ved un baile bizkaino presidido por las autoridades eclesiásticas y civiles y sentiréis regocijarse el ánimo al son del "txistu", la alboka o la dulzaina y al ver unidos en admirable consorcio el más sencillo candor y la loca más alegría; presenciad un baile español y si no os causa náuseas el liviano, asqueroso y cínico abrazo de los dos sexos queda acreditada la robustez de vuestro estómago, pero decidnos luego si os ha divertido el espectáculo o más bien os ha producido hastío y tristeza.

En romerías de bizkainos rara vez ocurren riñas, y si acaso se inicia alguna reyerta, oiréis sonar una media docena de puñetazos y todo concluido; asistid a una romería española y si no veis brillar la traidora navaja y enrojecerse el suelo, seguros podéis estar de que aquel día el sol ha salido por el Oeste.

El aseo del bizkaino es proverbial (recordad que, cuando en la última guerra andaban hasta por Nabarra, ninguna semana les faltaba la muda interior completa que sus madres o hermanas les llevaban recorriendo a pie la distancia); el español apenas se lava una vez en su vida y se muda una vez al año.

La familia bizkaina atiende más a la alimentación que al vestido, que aunque limpio siempre es modesto; id a España y veréis familias cuyas hijas no comen en casa más que cebolla, pimientos y tomate crudo, pero que en la calle visten sombrero, si bien su ropa interior es "peor menealla".

El bizkaino que vive en las montañas, que es el verdadero bizkaino es, por natural carácter, religioso (asistid a una misa por aldea apartada y quedaréis edificados); el español que habita lejos de las poblaciones, o es fanático o es impío (ejemplos de lo primero en cualquier región española; de lo segundo entre los bandidos andaluces, que usan escapulario, y de lo tercero, aquí en Bizkaya, en Sestao donde todos los españoles, que no son pocos, son librepensadores).

Oídle hablar a un bizkaino y escucharéis la más eufónica, moral y culta de las lenguas; oídle a un español y si sólo le oís rebuznar podéis estar satisfechos, pues el asno no profiere voces indecentes ni blasfemias.

El bizkaino es amante de su familia y su hogar (cuanto a lo primero, sabido es que el adulterio es muy raro en familias no inficionadas de la influencia maketa, esto es, en las familias genuinamente bizkainas; y cuanto a lo segundo, si el bizkaino por su carácter emprendedor se ausenta de su hogar no le pasa día en que no suspire por volver a él); entre los españoles, el adulterio es frecuente así en las clases elevadas como en las humildes, y la afección al hogar es en estas últimas nula porque no la tienen.

Por último, según la estadística, el noventa y cinco por ciento de los crímenes que se perpetran en Bizkaya se deben a mano española, y de cuatro de los cinco restantes son autores bizkainos españolizados.

Decid, pues, ahora si el bizkaino es español por su tipo, carácter y costumbres."


About the PNV claims you could see how the Basque Socialists reacted to the illegal project of the party whom forms a coalition with the terrorists Batasuna. Patxi Lopez, secretary general of the Basque Socialist Party (PSE) announced this platform: "We are ready to build Euskadi, not within the isolation that the Ibarretxe Plan would bring us". True is the Ibarretxe Plan has been rejected BUT is a nevertheless plan by this party built upon theories about "Basque" and "Non-Basque". Why this agenda?

Maybe: We are not embarrassed, we freely embrace and inherit Sabino's thought. We are convinced that we will achieve the goals he established in the future".

The Spanish right wing is very extremist in this topic, they reject everything, they're Spanish nationalists. They're the ones who were not happy with the "permanent cease-fire"... normal, they only use stereotypes and old fears to make politics. For the Spanish right, the more tense, the better. Now I just hope socialists and Basque nationalists bring some rationality and make something good for Euskadi together.

What is this? Tuesday the 28 of March this year Rajoy met Zapatazo in Moncloa in order to adjust their (PSOE) postures on the Basque policy in the aftermath of ETA´s announcement. Despite the fact that Zapateros government negotiated with the terrorists (not strange, the catalan radicals did that already in 2004 whom is in coalition with PSOE) he offered his support to Zapatero because of his guarantees. This includes also the support to how PSE getting their things togheter, thus they have to work with the PNV which we know are linked to the terrorists and racists in Batasuna.

The most disgusting thing of the article is that he makes the false equation: Basque nationalist=terrorist. In fact, I'm surprised that the Socialist party are not among the terrorists in this article, since supposedly the bombs of Madrid on March 11th were a complot between Basque nationalists, Al Qaeda and the socialists and communists... yeah, don't laugh, they believe it. You can't deny they have a great imagination

This is false. The government of Aznar wasn´t alone in attributing the March 11 attacks to ETA. In the first few hours, the president of the Basque autonomous Region, the secretary general of the socialist Party, the general coordinator of the United Left and the secretary general of Catalonias Esquerra Republicana (ERC), among others, did likewise. The only person who denied their responsibility on this morning was the leader of Batasuna, an illegal organisation because they support murdering and terrorism (although they don´t care about the illegalisation though they have made 165 appearances in the basque country, in San Sebastian lately, to the ignoration of the Basque society). The former government didn´t dismissed any evidence pointing elsewhere, explanied by señor Aznar at his public appearance on March 12, the day after.

Viva España!
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post #18 of 21 (permalink) Old April 10th, 2006, 20:42
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First of all why do you call me friend of ETA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IlPrincipe
JuanRa (aka Juan-Ramon) is a well defined member of ETA ...
'Juanra is a well defined member of ETA, got any evidence?' There's no evidence, so he's no (well defined) member of ETA.
The only evidence they got against Juanra, is a declaration police got after torturing, that guy cancelled his declaration immediately after he was released, is that evidence?
If he should be a member of ETA, but it's not proven, there's still no a single reason to keep him in prison.

About the six in Mexico, the only accusation against them is this:
- in their houses should've been found offensive video-tapes and computer material.
- kind of tax fraud (place money on weird bank accounts to 'make it legal')
- 'logically' Garzón makes a 'membership of ETA' accusation of that.

You're telling a lot of other things, what's your source? Are they accused of what you tell? NO!

Quote:
Originally Posted by IlPrincipe
Igor Angulo Cry me a river. The member of ETA Igor Angulo, also known as Igor Miguel Angulo Iturrate ("Etarrate") declared suicied from prison sources which mean they SAW when he committed suicied.
Where've you got that from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koeman4
an English version of a web page called Libertad Digital, which is the one of the most scary fascist sites you can find around. A site that defends the coup d'etat of Franco, to say an example.
Therefrom? So it's nonsense... again, here facts:
I think even someone like you understands, someone who called the evening before with his girlfriend and made plans for the future, and who has not got any psychological problems (according to friends and other prisoners), commits suicide. Also there was no farewell letter or something like that.
Then the facts, the body was found lying on the bed and his hands tided on his back with skin laces (where he didn't have permission for, how's that possible?) while the rope what killed him was still pressing into his neck, what happened all in that cell? Prisonguards did nothing to help him in the first time, but then, why have they put him on the bed? The doctors for the autopsy didn't have had any chance to investigate him... yes they had, after the prison guards did it before.
One thing is for sure, prison guards did absolutely nothing to help him, if (!) he really comitted suicide.

---

Then in general, beside Basques are tortured, most times at the time they're arrested (for example, Igor Angulo los his consciousness when he was arrested, after he was hit several times with a gun), they're always put as far as possible from Basque Country, preferrably as only Basque.
Beside it's unfair to the prisoner himself, what about their family? What have they done wrong? You punish them even harder than the prisoner himself... this is such a sad policy. Clearly punishing innocent people.

Finally, I won't enter the discussion about politics in Basque Country as I know too less of all that. My Spanish is too bad to understand all I read about it, in English all information is very limited, so I can't really say something about that.
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post #19 of 21 (permalink) Old April 11th, 2006, 16:51 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlPrincipe
About the PNV claims you could see how the Basque Socialists reacted to the illegal project of the party whom forms a coalition with the terrorists Batasuna. Patxi Lopez, secretary general of the Basque Socialist Party (PSE) announced this platform: "We are ready to build Euskadi, not within the isolation that the Ibarretxe Plan would bring us". True is the Ibarretxe Plan has been rejected BUT is a nevertheless plan by this party built upon theories about "Basque" and "Non-Basque". Why this agenda?
Because they wanted to create a state in a 2nd step, which is clear in the text. Then they wouldn't force people to be Basque, creating the Basque and the non-Basque status. But as I said, I don't like it, because it's very ambiguous. In any case, I don't think the PNV would start checking the blood of anyone. First of all, because I don't think they believe in this anymore (it's such a stupidty to believe in a Basque race). And, of course, noone in the world would accept it.

Quote:
Maybe: We are not embarrassed, we freely embrace and inherit Sabino's thought. We are convinced that we will achieve the goals he established in the future".
Well, you have to see the whole context. I don't see that their program follows the words of Sabino Arana as the Bible, just some of them. All the parties made an evolution, also PNV.

Quote:
What is this? Tuesday the 28 of March this year Rajoy met Zapatazo in Moncloa in order to adjust their (PSOE) postures on the Basque policy in the aftermath of ETA´s announcement. Despite the fact that Zapateros government negotiated with the terrorists (not strange, the catalan radicals did that already in 2004 whom is in coalition with PSOE) he offered his support to Zapatero because of his guarantees. This includes also the support to how PSE getting their things togheter, thus they have to work with the PNV which we know are linked to the terrorists and racists in Batasuna.
Yeah, Rajoy went pushed by the circumstances. After PP appeared in some surveys 10 points below PSOE. But you just have to read or hear the mediatic (ultra) right like El Mundo or COPE. At least, ABC keeps some sense in a conservative view.

And I think it's a stupidity to say all this about the "negotiations with the terrorists". What is the king doing in Saudi Arabia this week? Spain always talked with terrorists and dictators. The most important is the goal to achieve, which is peace. If PSOE or just the CNI talked with the terrorist to convince them to stop the fight, it's ok... as long as there's nothing to negotiate politically, because politics are done in the Parliaments.

PNV doesn't have any link with the terrorists, as long as it's proven and I don't see any member of PNV in jail due to terrorist actions.

Quote:
This is false. The government of Aznar wasn´t alone in attributing the March 11 attacks to ETA. In the first few hours, the president of the Basque autonomous Region, the secretary general of the socialist Party, the general coordinator of the United Left and the secretary general of Catalonias Esquerra Republicana (ERC), among others, did likewise. The only person who denied their responsibility on this morning was the leader of Batasuna, an illegal organisation because they support murdering and terrorism (although they don´t care about the illegalisation though they have made 165 appearances in the basque country, in San Sebastian lately, to the ignoration of the Basque society). The former government didn´t dismissed any evidence pointing elsewhere, explanied by señor Aznar at his public appearance on March 12, the day after.
No, wrong. In the first hours, Aznar HIMSELF called everyone, the Lehendakari, Zapatero, even the directors of the newspapers to convince everyone that it was ETA. And yes, Otegi (Bastasuna) denied the implication of ETA. Me, I did believe Acebes and you know how much I hate that man. I just couldn't believe they could lie in something like this. And I didn't believe Otegi, because he has few credibility to me.

But the facts since that day in the afternoon went against the government. The most disgusting and the reason why PP lost the elections was that Otegi, the spokesman of Batasuna, the party of ETA, said the truth and Acebes said a lie. And tomorrow, the Audiencia Nacional will present the definitive text and we'll find out ETA didn't have anything to do with it. If Acebes, Rajoy and Zaplana still have some shame, they should automatically resign for lying to the Spanish people to win the elections. Disgusting.

On March 11th, Acebes said: "It's ETA and the ones who say the opposite are miserables". Who's the miserable? Then, the constant message in all those days was "it has been the band we all know, the ones who've been killing for years in Spain... although we don't close other ways of investigation". And this, when EVERYONE in Spain smelled the lie. At the point of the demonstration we all went, the only question was: "Who has been? Why do you lie?".

You know ETA didn't have anything to do. If ETA kill, they say it. And the ONLY ones who admit the action were the people who suicided in Leganés some days later. The ones alive are in jail.

PP lost the elections because of the lies they told us f those 3 days and you know it.
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post #20 of 21 (permalink) Old April 11th, 2006, 17:08 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knoert
Therefrom? So it's nonsense... again, here facts:
I think even someone like you understands, someone who called the evening before with his girlfriend and made plans for the future, and who has not got any psychological problems (according to friends and other prisoners), commits suicide. Also there was no farewell letter or something like that.

Then the facts, the body was found lying on the bed and his hands tided on his back with skin laces (where he didn't have permission for, how's that possible?) while the rope what killed him was still pressing into his neck, what happened all in that cell? Prisonguards did nothing to help him in the first time, but then, why have they put him on the bed? The doctors for the autopsy didn't have had any chance to investigate him... yes they had, after the prison guards did it before.
One thing is for sure, prison guards did absolutely nothing to help him, if (!) he really comitted suicide.
Look, I guess you perfectly know I have nothing the Basques, not even the independentism, which is an option I don't share, but I understand and even defend, if you have any problem to express it.

At the same time, I'm very sceptical about the versions of the people near ETA, because people who use violence as way of living and achieve their goals are people who aren't trustful. In that sense, I trust the Spanish justice much more, since it's a legal system with guarantees. I've seen Spanish Ministers in jail for the GAL case and I don't have doubts about the system. Maybe it's not perfect, as any other legal system, but at least, it has more credibility to me. So I guess there's an investigation about it and, if they find they kill the etarra, then I'll be the first with you, because I don't want my country to act in this way and I'd feel betrayed. I don't trust in violence, wherever it comes from.

I just have many doubts about ETA and their environment.

Quote:
Then in general, beside Basques are tortured, most times at the time they're arrested (for example, Igor Angulo los his consciousness when he was arrested, after he was hit several times with a gun), they're always put as far as possible from Basque Country, preferrably as only Basque.
Beside it's unfair to the prisoner himself, what about their family? What have they done wrong? You punish them even harder than the prisoner himself... this is such a sad policy. Clearly punishing innocent people.
As I said, I won't deny tortures existed at some point and, even systematically, in the past. Nowadays, I don't believe the government or the state have a plan to torture the arrested terrorists. And, of course, the Basques are not tortured as if this was the Nazi Germany.

About the separation policy. I agree with you it's sad, but at the same time, it's most important to finish with the actions of the band. It's been proven that, if they're together, the band keeps the control of the arrested members. In that sense, ETA is mainly a mafia. They don't only threat people who are like them, but also their own people if they don't follow their rules (Yoyes, for example). The reasons of the separation are to make more difficult the actions of the band and to allow the arrested member of ETA to go out of the band, if he wants. I understand the frustration of the families, but for me, it's MUCH more important to make more difficult the task of a band that uses bombs and murder people. If they don't want to be in a jail 800Km far from Euskadi, they shouldn't join a terrorist band. I think it's easy to understand this. If their families don't want their kids far from them, they should convince them to stay out of ETA. But any bad action has a punishment. If you kill someone, you pay the consequences and go to jail. Any member of ETA chose a different way to live... well, then they're the only responsibles of it.

Quote:
Finally, I won't enter the discussion about politics in Basque Country as I know too less of all that. My Spanish is too bad to understand all I read about it, in English all information is very limited, so I can't really say something about that.
Don't worry about it. Just... when we talk about this topic, we should see the 2 faces of the coin. ETA are not heroes, but cowards and they've done more harm to Euskadi than anyone else since we have democracy in Spain. I do really love Euskadi and their people. Whenever I went, I've been great and I had a great time. But it's horrible to shut up depending on the place you go.
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