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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old February 10th, 2006, 14:13 Thread Starter
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Separatism...

Since we have the European Union as a general Governing body now, wouldnt it be better to get rid of country borders but make a Europe of Regions, based on cultural boundaries instead of historical events...?

I am very much Pro on this one, a few of these regions would be

Flanders
Bayern
Northern Italy(it has a name but I forgot)
Corsica
etc
etc

I call this separatism, but this doesnt mean i'm in favour of violence, perhaps an ism is a bad choice...

What's your opinion on this?
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old February 10th, 2006, 14:57
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I'm pro looking to borders based on cultural boundaries, but taking away country borders would mean we live in the 'United States of Europe', I'm not a fan of that to be honest...

Other 'candidates' could be...
Fryslân
Catalunya
Kosovo (don't know exacxtly how far they're already a country / indepentendt region)
Montenegro (same)

As for making cultural borders, it also depends on the meaning of the people, for example Frisians in Holland feel just as much Dutch as Frisian, so for them it would be no matter I think.
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old February 10th, 2006, 14:57
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Cultural boundries? As if I have (culturally) more in common with a Vlaams Behang fascist or a small NVA-bourgois (pun intended) than I have with a cool Walloon PS member.

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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old February 10th, 2006, 16:08
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Maybe in a few centuries.

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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old February 10th, 2006, 17:03 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gOD
Cultural boundries? As if I have (culturally) more in common with a Vlaams Behang fascist or a small NVA-bourgois (pun intended) than I have with a cool Walloon PS member.
Dont get me started on ethno-cultural differences between Flanders and the rest of belgium...Whether you like it or not they DO exist.


Why do you mention a "fascist" VB member but not a fascist FN member because those exist as well, but this is besides the point od this topic, my question was: do you think europe's boundaries should be redesigned based on ethno-cultural attributes rather than use the historically grown borders as we know them?
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old February 10th, 2006, 18:05
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So do the difference between Antwerp and West-Vlaanderen, so what? In the end such ethno-cultural differences (whatever that means) mean nothing compared to other factors such as you socio-economic background.

But to answer the question: No of course not the nation-state and the the idea of cultural identity that goes with it, is an idea that has lost it relevance 200 years ago. The beauty of Belgioum is that it is free from all that nationalistic bs

We can bomb the world to pieces, but we can't bomb it into peace!

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old February 10th, 2006, 18:18 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gOD
So do the difference between Antwerp and West-Vlaanderen, so what? In the end such ethno-cultural differences (whatever that means) mean nothing compared to other factors such as you socio-economic background.

But to answer the question: No of course not the nation-state and the the idea of cultural identity that goes with it, is an idea that has lost it relevance 200 years ago. The beauty of Belgioum is that it is free from all that nationalistic bs

I don't agree with your first or your second point, but i don't have time to elaborate further right now, i'll do that later...
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old February 10th, 2006, 22:40
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No, it would screw up our football competitions. And those are more important.


Though you do bring up a good point. As Europe federalizes more and more what happens to federations like Germany? Does Germany become an on-paper entity (or just a football team) with all power split between Brussels and the Lander (states) or does Germany centralize, meaning the states lose their powers? In places like France this is of course not a problem.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old February 11th, 2006, 00:16
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The EU doesn't recognise regions, only states. This is logical because it wouldn't be workable. It is difficult enough as it is with the current 25 members. I believe the EU has a committee of regions (I think its even called like that, but that is far away in my memory), but it has no real power.

In practice the EU-nations who are federations (and thus have matters fall solemnly under the jurisdiction of the regions) have to work out a system themselves to organise which region will take part as representative in the Council of Europe. For Belgium the rule is that every 6 months it changes (I'm leaving out the complex Belgian situations were you have regions and communities which have different competences). So for example when the council talks about agricultural items (which is something the regions have jurisdictions over in Belgium), the first 6 months the Flemmish minister goes, the second 6 months the Wallloon minister goes... and the last 6 months the Brussels' minister goes. The latter doesn't have 5 farmers in his region but still

It has also other Interesting (at least of our internal politics, but also when you are interested in the logic of policy making) consequences. For example; since Europe doesn't recognises the regions, it can't hold them accountable. For example when Flanders refuses or is too late with following the European agricultural fertilisers rules, it is the Belgian state, which has absolutely nothing to say about it, that is condemned to pay the fine.

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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old February 11th, 2006, 01:19
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In some cases this would look better than the artificial imposed borders.
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old February 11th, 2006, 01:41
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see, this is exactly why I'm anti-EU all the way.


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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old February 11th, 2006, 10:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Txupa
In some cases this would look better than the artificial imposed borders.
What constitutes a "non-artificial" border?
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old February 11th, 2006, 15:15
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Originally Posted by Johan
What constitutes a "non-artificial" border?
Australians might have an idea .

Otherwise cute pun .

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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old February 11th, 2006, 15:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MutOofd
Since we have the European Union as a general Governing body now, wouldnt it be better to get rid of country borders but make a Europe of Regions, based on cultural boundaries instead of historical events...?
Quote:
Originally Posted by gOD
In the end such ethno-cultural differences (whatever that means) mean nothing compared to other factors such as you socio-economic background.

But to answer the question: No of course not the nation-state and the the idea of cultural identity that goes with it, is an idea that has lost it relevance 200 years ago. The beauty of Belgioum is that it is free from all that nationalistic bs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Txupa
In some cases this would look better than the artificial imposed borders.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You commie-fascist Eurocrats crack me up.

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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old February 11th, 2006, 17:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gOD
No of course not the nation-state and the the idea of cultural identity that goes with it, is an idea that has lost it relevance 200 years ago.

In 1806?

When most nation states did not exist yet? When many nationalisms didn't exist yet? Are you sure?
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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old February 11th, 2006, 17:44
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OK I exagerate a bit, but let's face it after the romantic era the idea is just old fashion. Nation states mean nothing today. The problem is that people haven't grasped this reality yet.

We can bomb the world to pieces, but we can't bomb it into peace!

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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old February 11th, 2006, 18:14
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I think separatism is a great idea, but it'll work if we divide the planet by High school Pop-Cultural rubrics rather than National or cultural divide. For instance, Northern Europe could go to the Goths, since they seem to be allergic to light anyway, and finally have reason to be depressed. All the ganstas, Hip Hop enthusiasts, wiggers among them, can take the middle east, where they can drive by and gangbang all year and don't have to worry about five-o, since they too engage in it.

Surfers and Skateboarders can have australia where the wide-open spaces and little population minimizes their irritating activity. And New Zealand is only a few Windsurfing clicks away from Snowboarding and half-piping.

The quasi intellectual, activist idealist liberals can have the whole African Continent for themselves, where they are free to respect the continents rich natural resources and live off their self-pity and can personally mingle with Nature's beasts when their loathing for eachother become too much to tolerate.

Religious newborns can have all of Canada for themselves. Shit, we should even throw in Alaska, where they can burn flags, porn and MTV just to keep warm.

The rest of us, should all just go live in the tropics of South American and the caribean. Yup, all 6 of us, we could take few Islands each, play golf, soccer, b-ball and hunt sharks to kill boredom.

Vote for me - I'm on item line 367 of your local softball-for toddlers commity, week 17 parent agenda.

That is all.

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