the case pinochet. - Xtratime Community
 
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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old February 9th, 2006, 17:54 Thread Starter
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the case pinochet.

how guilty he was?
do you think that the fight against communism justified what it has been done?
do you think that the chile people should have protected and supported alliende more than they did?

I strictly have nothing to say but I want that comes out.
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old February 9th, 2006, 18:02
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1) nOT gUILTY
2)yES.....(Chile was full of communist outsiders/foreigners ready to overtake the nation even at the expense of the same Allende)
3)aLLENDE HAD LESS THAN HALF OF THE cHILEANS SUPPORTING HIM TO BEGIN WITH..hIM AND HIS PEOPLE HAD cHILE BANKRUPTED IN LESS THAN 2 YRS..


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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old February 9th, 2006, 18:15 Thread Starter
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well, alliende failed, it couldn't have been in another way as said lucky. but i think he was a honest guy and that he really wanted the best for the people.

I strictly have nothing to say but I want that comes out.
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old February 9th, 2006, 18:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Luciano
Millions died because of them
Tens, if not hundreds, of millions lived because of them. If you want more Stalins, Maos, Pol Pots, and Kim Jong-Ils massacring their people for no reason but ideological compulsion, say the magic word.

Of course Pinochet's rule was justified. The alternative was an autocratic pro-Soviet government that would have spread violent and destructive revolution across the region. The loss of 3,000 lives, as regrettable as it was that it was the only option, was a small price to pay to prevent, in Che Guevara's words, 100 Vietnams in Latin America.

And, if you're interested, the reforms put into place by Pinochet turned Chile into the star of Latin America. Thanks to Allende, the Chilean economy went into free-fall. It took Pinochet almost ten years to undo Allende's maniacal three years of expropriation and inflation, but the past two decades have been a decisive vote in favour of Pinochet's economic reforms, particularly as it vindicated both von Hayek and Friedman; free markets bring about a free society, but socialism crushes democracy.

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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old February 9th, 2006, 18:34
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Yeah, but hotel prices skyrocket when your economy is going well. Won't somebody think of the gringos?

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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old February 9th, 2006, 18:58
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Aliende applies a strange form of communism and this wasn't something that USSR liked at that time.

Economically speaking maybe he wasn't the best, but for sure the USA played their role at the time in several ways. With the great strike of the truckers the first problems arised. But NOBODY on earth has the right to start a dictatorship and decide that he will apply the law by attacking the governent and killing Aliende. Shame on the people who still support a murderer. If Bastin doesn't have a problem with dictatorships then it would be good fun to see their Parliament being burnt down by your own army just because a general doesn't agree with the government.

Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Pinochet. They all belong to the same category. The only difference is that Pinochet has is that he was likeable to the USA and the Brits.
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old February 9th, 2006, 19:14
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Originally Posted by Panoss
If Bastin doesn't have a problem with dictatorships then it would be good fun to see their Parliament being burnt down by your own army just because a general doesn't agree with the government.
It wasn't just because a general didn't like Allende's policies. It was because the Chamber of Deputies didn't like Allende's policies. They called for the military to restore order to a country ravaged by Allende's madness, and Pinochet obliged.

You seem to think that Allende was acting legally, which serves to grossly misrepresent the situation. Allende: ruled by decree, without the Chilean legislature's oversight or legislative authority; refused to act as an impartial executive when enforcing the law; and stole hundreds of millions of dollars of land. Last but not least, Allende was no democrat; by his close association with Castro, and his unconstitutional actions in the 3 years that he did have, one can guarantee that he wasn't going to step down at the end of his six-year term. He had to be stopped before he could take root, and before Chile became a continental Cuba.

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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old February 9th, 2006, 19:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastin
one can guarantee that he wasn't going to step down at the end of his six-year term. He had to be stopped before he could take root, and before Chile became a continental Cuba.
I get it. in case he didn't step down Pinochet decided that he should stay in power for more than 15 years.

Has Britain ever had dictatorship? Do you know the feeling? Of course not and your anwers are typical by a British man who feels gratidude because of the war in the Folklands. I understand that but this does not justify Pinochet's acts.

Still there are missing people thousands of dead, others tortured, but do you think that this could happen in the name of the British Empire?
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old February 9th, 2006, 19:39
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Most of the 'dead and tortured' were no saints either. They had it coming.

Hurrah for Paquador!
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old February 9th, 2006, 19:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panoss
I get it. in case he didn't step down Pinochet decided that he should stay in power for more than 15 years.
Not 'in case' he didn't step down. He wasn't going to step down, and everyone knew that. That's why the Chamber of Deputies made that clear in the resolution asking the army to intervene.

You do, conveniently, ignore his constitutional intransigence. You claim that 'NOBODY on earth has the right to start a dictatorship', but that's exactly what Allende did, ruled by dictat, and you support his decision to have done so. Is that not contradictory? The very argument that you use to criticise Pinochet is actually more applicable to Allende.

However, as I've already said, Pinochet knew that his dictatorship would end soon. Not only did he step down, but he knew, from day one, that he would not die in the presidential office. Pinochet being a fan of Milton Friedman, he knew the inseparability of capitalism and freedom, and knew that his economic reforms (which were beneficial by themselves) would also lead to democracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panoss
Has Britain ever had dictatorship? Do you know the feeling?
Of course we've had a dictatorship. Just because my family funded King Charles I, Oliver Cromwell took away everything that they had, and gave them to his generals. That's exactly what Allende did: took land from people that he didn't like (for Catholics, read foreigners and the middle class) and gave it to people that he did like (socialists). And, for your information, my family then lost all of its property to the expropriations of Nasser.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panoss
Still there are missing people thousands of dead, others tortured
Pull yourself together and put it into context. The bloodthirsty communists wanted to spread revolution and destruction to the rest of Latin America. Had Allende stayed in charge, he'd have sent soldiers across the continent, just as Fidel Castro had deployed the Cuban army to murder in the name of his ideology and personal glory.

Glen: "That last post of Bastin's is just too authoritative to argue against."

gOD: "It scares the f*ck out of me but I'm with Bastin here."

Cacìni: "Ah, there you go using that absurd über-memory of your's...not fair."

Boyo: "Even when it comes to rap, Bastin is an authority."

Attila_the_Nun: "A most respected scion of Misty Albion, the illustious Bastin - the redoubtable defender of all our noble traditions."

Humbird: "Bastin is very attractive when talking nautical! "
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post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old February 9th, 2006, 20:19 Thread Starter
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someone could post the speech allende made front the UN in 1972, please?
i can't find out it.

I strictly have nothing to say but I want that comes out.
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post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old February 9th, 2006, 21:08 Thread Starter
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i found it only in french. i saw allende in a documentary, i saw when he made his speech and i must say that (except who you know) all of the members of the UN was shaked by his speech.

here it is in french (i must say that nothing changed...) :


EXTRAITS DU DISCOURS DE SALVADOR ALLENDE PRONONCÉ À L’ONU, LE 4 DÉCEMBRE 1972

“Le drame de ma patrie est celui d’un Vietnam silencieux. Il n’y a pas de troupes d’occupation ni d’avions dans le ciel du Chili. Mais nous affrontons un blocus économique et nous sommes privés de crédits par les organismes de financement internationaux.”

“Nous sommes face à un véritable conflit entre les multinationales et les États. Ceux-ci ne sont plus maîtres de leurs décisions fondamentales, politiques, économiques et militaires à cause de multinationales qui ne dépendent d’aucun État.
Elles opèrent sans assumer leurs responsabilités et ne sont contrôlées par aucun parlement ni par aucune instance représentative de l’intérêt général. En un mot, c’est la structure politique du monde qui est ébranlée. Les grandes entreprises multinationales nuisent aux intérêts des pays en voie de developpement. Leurs activités asservissantes et incontrôlées nuisent aussi aux pays industrialisés où elles s’installent. Notre confiance en nous-même renforce notre foi dans les grandes valeurs de l’humanité et nous assure que ces valeurs doivent prévaloir. Elles ne pourront être détruites !”

I strictly have nothing to say but I want that comes out.
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post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old February 10th, 2006, 00:18
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Pinochet was a bastard like all the other nutjobs the USA and SU installed and supported. All he was interested in was power and laundering money for his own personal gain. Stupid global geopolitics always cause this sh*t.

Anyway If Allende took money of rich people he is alright in my book. bloody wealth horders.
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post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old February 10th, 2006, 05:33
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Allende's popularity was never that great (especially after his "reforms", so if Pinochet had not put him in his place, someone else would have done that anyway.
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post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old February 10th, 2006, 07:01
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Hay viejos..y viejos de mierda.

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post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old February 10th, 2006, 07:35 Thread Starter
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fangio, i would really like to read your prose on the subject

I strictly have nothing to say but I want that comes out.
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post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old February 10th, 2006, 08:24
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prose? don't have any till my english improves, which may not happen any day sooner, anyway Mali, sometimes prose is not necessary..I stick to my prior post, [sorry BTW if you really meant it].

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post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old February 10th, 2006, 08:26 Thread Starter
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you don't want add some analysis?

I strictly have nothing to say but I want that comes out.
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post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old February 10th, 2006, 08:44
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nah sorry, will be more well recieve this decission of mine than you think hahaha, like I said, I stick to my accurate previous post.

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post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old February 14th, 2006, 06:32
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Horrible dictator, killed and tortured in the worst of ways. Nothing justifies that, and some of it is proven.

If he was good for Chile's economics is another issue, the systematic violation of human rights as a way is unacceptable to my books. There was no civil freedom in Chile during those years.

Add to that the fact that he was a corrupt mather****er, and that he mocks justice acting sick to get into a hospital and then goes to almost dancing in front of journalists.

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