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post #1 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 07:33 Thread Starter
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tolerance and fairness

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/382

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newspaper Jyllands-Posten is being protected by security guards and several cartoonists have gone into hiding after the newspaper published a series of twelve cartoons (see them all here, halfway the article) about the prophet Muhammad. According to the Islam it is blasphemous to make images of the prophet. Muslim fundamentalists have threatened to bomb the paper’s offices and kill the cartoonists.
Its good to see they have a great sense of proportions and are tolerant to what others want to say. This article though doesn't include (but possibly link too) how some of the stable guys in Gaza threatened to kill all scandinavians not leaveing Gaza within 24 hours. I think it is clear that some Norwegians are fair target to kill because of a Danish cartoon, those darned Norwegians.

Even better, the awfully politically correct goverments in the world also turn against Demark due to a cartoon. Obviously it is racistic when they make fun of islam, because everyone knows that making fun of white catholics is not racism, that is perfectly okay.

HA!

Maybe som Dane can tell how this stuff ended up, if the Danish folded or stood up like men about their press freedom.
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post #2 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 07:56
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Not that I understand any of the garbage you posted, but funny you should mention "proportions", "awefully politically correct governments", that white Christians are a fair game, and "if the Danish folded or stood up like men about their press freedom"..

Maybe you ought to tell us if the same was said about Judaism, would you be defending your freedom of expression to insult them or begging for forgiveness after cries of anti-semitism? Even better, if some journalist insulted Christians in Egypt in that same way would you take the story lightly and accept that its done in the name of freedom of expression, or be ramming it down our throats to prove that Christians are systematically targetted in Arab countries.

Freedom of expression doesn't come for free, it comes with a responsibility in how we use it. Not only are the caricatures disrespectful, but whats more problematic is that they incite unconditional hatred against all Muslims (due to Mohammad being a central figure in Islam) without distinction between good and bad.

Typically, the more extreme moronic reactions aren't right either. Certainly the world can do without those people as they could do without hypocrites/extremists like yourself.


Apparently this man doesn't know his great Scandinavian-style freedom of expression:

Clinton warns of rising anti-Islamic feeling

DOHA (AFP) - Former US president Bill Clinton warned of rising anti-Islamic prejudice, comparing it to historic anti-Semitism as he condemned the publishing of cartoons depicting Prophet Mohammed in a Danish newspaper.

"So now what are we going to do? ... Replace the anti-Semitic prejudice with anti-Islamic prejudice?" he said at an economic conference in the Qatari capital of Doha.

"In Europe, most of the struggles we've had in the past 50 years have been to fight prejudices against Jews, to fight against anti-Semitism," he said.

Clinton described as "appalling" the 12 cartoons published in a Danish newspaper in September depicting Prophet Mohammed and causing uproar in the Muslim world.

"None of us are totally free of stereotypes about people of different races, different ethnic groups, and different religions ... there was this appalling example in northern Europe, in Denmark ... these totally outrageous cartoons against Islam," he said.

The cartoons, including a portrayal of the prophet wearing a time-bomb-shaped turban, were reprinted in a Norwegian magazine in January, sparking uproar in the Muslim world where images of the prophet are considered blasphemous.

Clinton criticised the tendency to generalise negative news of Islamic militancy.

"Because people see headlines that they don't like (they will) apply that to a whole religion, a whole faith, a whole region and a whole people?" he asked.

A wide campaign to boycott Danish products has swept through Muslim countries as many governments and organisations have demanded an apology from the Danish government.

Clinton said the United States should continue to push for a Middle East settlement, in light of the stunning win by the radical Islamist movement Hamas in last week's Palestinian elections.

"It is important that ... we continue to be heavily involved in the resolution of the issues in the Middle East. (But) it depends in part on what Hamas says and does," he said.

"When we (US) are involved, fewer people (have) died," he said.

US President George W. Bush on Friday warned of cuts in US aid to the Palestinians if Hamas does not dissolve its armed wing and renounce threats against Israel.

Last edited by Sabry; February 1st, 2006 at 08:47.
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post #3 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 08:47 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sabry
1. Maybe you ought to tell us if the same was said about Judaism, would you be defending your freedom of expression to insult them or begging for forgiveness after cries of anti-semitism?

2. Even better, if some journalist insulted Christians in Egypt in that same way would you take the story lightly and accept that its done in the name of freedom of expression, or be ramming it down our throats to prove that Christians are systematically targetted in Arab countries.
1. Me personally? Reserve my right to make fun of whatever. i don't like anyone that tries to victimise themself.

2. Oh I take it lightly, but then you shouldn't ask me since I don't consider myself a christian. But i taken it lightly every time any stereotype I even belonged to was made fun of. note that this was not a insult, it was a ironic comic made for humour purpose. See Monthy Pythons "life of Brian" if you want to see the same about christianity. I recommend it, I found that movie hilarious. western countries continually make fun of pretty much everything within our culture, what in partincular makes it wrong to make fun of others and why would that be suddenly malicious? Worthy of being killed only by association of it?

From the same article

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Meanwhile in Brussels a young Muslim immigrant published a poster depicting the Virgin Mary with naked breasts. Though the picture has drawn some protest from Catholics (though not from Western embassies, nor from the bishops), this artist need not fear being murdered in the street. On the contrary, he is being subsidised by the Ministry for Culture.
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post #4 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 08:51
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Clinton, and others, should have informed himself about exactly why the newspaper published those cartoons, before condemning it as 'anti-Islamic prejudice'.

The paper learned that since the Van Gogh assassination, Danish cartoonists were afraid to make satirical drawings about islamic related topics, out of fear of what would happen to them if they did. The paper decided that such a form of self censorship was undesirable and requested various cartoonists to do so anyway, as a display of freedom of expression.

As such it's quite ironic that they ended up apologizing for it, seems they're not quite the champions of freedom that they thought they were. I assume they underestimated the reaction it would get, a bit naive as there are enough examples about what such a thing leads to.

But that's what it comes down to, institutions that have a long established tradition of satirical depictions in newspapers and other media are faced with the choice to either censor themselves when it comes to islamic topics, or not. But then they should be clear about it, and not apologize for it later. You know that in today's world such a thing leads to outrage, so it's sure to have consequences. Whether that is acceptable or not, is a moral issue that is for society to decide.

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post #5 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 13:30
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Originally Posted by Sabry
Maybe you ought to tell us if the same was said about Judaism, would you be defending your freedom of expression to insult them or begging for forgiveness after cries of anti-semitism? Even better, if some journalist insulted Christians in Egypt in that same way would you take the story lightly and accept that its done in the name of freedom of expression, or be ramming it down our throats to prove that Christians are systematically targetted in Arab countries.
Satirical journalism is satirical journalism and everyone is a valid target. Jews, Muslims, Christians, homosexuals, dog-owners... bring it on. Every group of people has imperfections that can be made fun of. And rest assured, that everyone gets it. It's nice of you to think that there is some kind of western hypocracy on this subject, but there isn't.

But of course, threatening to kill people over some drawings makes much more sence that simply ignoring it. Viva freedom of speech, Islam-style!

PS. By the way... I've seen the work that brought about the murder of Theo Van Gogh and it's art at it's best. Brilliantly illustrating the point he wished to make.

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Last edited by AMOROSO!; February 1st, 2006 at 13:37.
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post #6 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 14:04
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What the Muslim world fails to understand is that in the West governments do not control the press.

I see nothing wrong in what was done by the newspaper.

People in the West are sick and tired of being told that this is wrong and we don't like this or that. I aim this comment not only at Muslims buy at Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, Hinuds etc etc.

In the UK Sikhs and Buddhists are now seeking to carry out funeral cremations in the open and are looking at the Human Rights Act as their defence.
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post #7 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 14:57
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Originally Posted by AMOROSO!
Satirical journalism is satirical journalism and everyone is a valid target. Jews, Muslims, Christians, homosexuals, dog-owners... bring it on.
Indeed

That said there is a difference between a hard joke and a funny joke. The cartoons I saw were just not funny. No reason to turn to violence though.

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post #8 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 15:10
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whoops, dbl post

Last edited by Tinto; February 1st, 2006 at 15:22.
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post #9 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 15:15
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I didn't even look at the cartoons, but the description of one, (Mohammed with a turban shaped like a bomb), suggests they may not have been in the best taste, and were certainly callous in regards to Muslim sentiments.

But is it really necessary to say that's not the point?

The Quran may say it is blasphemous to create an image of the prophet. Fine, let those who believe in the Quran follow its teachings. It's quite a leap to presume that everyone else in the world must also do so. The Muslim world better wake up to the fact that it's unacceptable to threaten violence whenever they don't like something about the way others portray their religion.

Why aren't Muslims as quick to become angry with the terrorists who distort Islam for their own purposes? Is that not also blasphemous?

By way of comparison, look at how Thailand reacted to an incident when one of their ambassadors discovered a statue of the Buddha being used as a lampshade. They banned the export of Buddha images. (Never mind that the ban is rarely enforced). Point is, that was a more reasonable response. They didn't threaten to kill anyone found disrespecting a Buddha image.

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if some journalist insulted Christians in Egypt in that same way would you take the story lightly and accept that its done in the name of freedom of expression, or be ramming it down our throats to prove that Christians are systematically targetted in Arab countries.
from the same story...

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Meanwhile in Brussels a young Muslim immigrant published a poster depicting the Virgin Mary with naked breasts. Though the picture has drawn some protest from Catholics (though not from Western embassies, nor from the bishops), this artist need not fear being murdered in the street. On the contrary, he is being subsidised by the Ministry for Culture.
does that answer your question?
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post #10 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 15:26
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post #11 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 15:28
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I 100% agree with you.

People are sikc of tired of the same whining about this or that.

During the Iraq war there was outrage if a bomb came near a mosque, the desecration of Churches by muslims does not even warrant a mention though.
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post #12 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 15:39
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Meanwhile in Brussels a young Muslim immigrant published a poster depicting the Virgin Mary with naked breasts. Though the picture has drawn some protest from Catholics (though not from Western embassies, nor from the bishops), this artist need not fear being murdered in the street. On the contrary, he is being subsidised by the Ministry for Culture.
This is not really correct. The theatre makers were immigrants of Arab countries, but fully secular. The play (which was great by the way) was about "the mother figure" and was in no sence aimed at Catholicism. The protest, however, was widely supported by the extreme right Vlaams Belang, who are dangerous extremist that in Flanders are supported by almost 30% of the population.

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post #13 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 16:02
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I'm not claiming to have any knowledge of the play, poster, or those who produced either, but from your post, I'm not clear on what was incorrect.

"Fully secular" What does that mean? Are you saying the person who produced the poster was not a Muslim? Or are you saying his life was in fact threatened? If the latter, then what I said about whacko violent Muslims goes for whacko Christians too.
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post #14 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 16:14
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No the guys were of Arab descent, but not religious. And the painting/picture wasn't used to tackle Catholisism (as the cartoons are) but to use a methaphore for 'the mother figure'.

We can bomb the world to pieces, but we can't bomb it into peace!

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post #15 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 16:45
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And the painting/picture wasn't used to tackle Catholisism (as the cartoons are) but to use a methaphore for 'the mother figure'.
You wouldn't expect religious fanatics to recognize metaphors, would you?

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Jihadists are idiots.
All fanatics are idiots to soem extent, regardless whether they are religious, sports, political or whatever.

It's freaking ludicrous even for fundamentalists to hate and make threats towards the citizens of an entire country for the actions of a few cartoonist but sadly, there are many idiots around the world.

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post #16 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 17:02
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Originally Posted by gOD
That said there is a difference between a hard joke and a funny joke. The cartoons I saw were just not funny. No reason to turn to violence though.
The newspaper asked 12 different cartoonists to portrary Mohammed as they thought. 2 of them portrayed him in what you'd call, an "extremist" way. Considering that the newspaper run this as a statement against censorship, there would be going against their principles if they did not print the comics they didn't like... In the end, it doesn't matter if it was funny or not. They could just not buy the paper or not look at them, simple as that!

Fact is, you could draw an entire comic strip with incest/animal/groupsex porn featuring the Virgin Mary, JC and the donkey that carried them around and noone would have said a thing apart from some Christian organisations that would be duly ignored. And even they would never dream of threatening to kill you.

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post #17 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 17:50
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Every group of people has imperfections that can be made fun of.
This is no imperfection the paper is pointing out. The Prophet is the second most central figure in Islam, if he's depicted as an extremist than all Muslims follow as extremists without distinction. As such, the paper invites unconditional hatred against any Muslim.

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But of course, threatening to kill people over some drawings makes much more sence that simply ignoring it.
Get off your high horse, no one said its ok. But the incorrect reaction does not necessarily mean that the action was valid.

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Originally Posted by Tinto
does that answer your question?
No.

Putting gODs answer aside that the person was secular and was also harassed, thats not the same question I was asking. There is a difference when things like this happen to a minority within the larger community, than to the larger community itself. Not because of the content of the cartoon, you're right a cartoon can be brushed off, but in this specific one there is question of whether it incites hatred or not and affects the way the minority is held. And definitely many Westerners will view a Christian cartoon if printed in the Arab world differently than they will view it if printed in Europe for example. That was my point. Having said that, two wrongs don't make a right.

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By way of comparison, look at how Thailand reacted to an incident when one of their ambassadors
But what the extremists have done was not the main form of reaction to these caricatures. There were boycotts of danish products that have put pressure on danish firms, who subsequently demanded the paper apologize. Sounds reasonable to me. You must also realise that Buddha as a lampshade is not the same as Mohammad is an extremist. The first has no meaning or implication really, the second does. Unfortunately there are a few people who are always ready to parade their stupidity by turning things into violence/hatred and not realising that thats the same thing they should be lobbying against.

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Why aren't Muslims as quick to become angry with the terrorists who distort Islam for their own purposes? Is that not also blasphemous?
Thats true, sadly..

Last edited by Sabry; February 1st, 2006 at 18:16.
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post #18 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 18:16
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Originally Posted by Sabry
This is no imperfection the paper is pointing out. The Prophet is the second most central figure in Islam, if he's depicted as an extremist than all Muslims follow as extremists without distinction. As such, the paper invites unconditional hatred against any Muslim.
Bollocks, in the average European newspaper you'll find cartoons satirizing everything and everyone in the most extreme manner and none of it is thought to be inviting unconditional hatred about anything. If the cartoons were good, most people would give it a giggle and forget about it. Noone gives a **** about the prophet and what he represents to get all worked up through a cartoon. So, no the cartoon did not invite hatred against any Muslim, at best it provided some laughs at the expense of Muslims which is fine - that is the purpose of satire.

But what invites hatred against Muslims and depicts most Muslims as extremists is death threats against the newspapers and the cartoonists, the ambassadors of 11 Muslim countries complaining about it, the boycott of Danish products by Muslims, and 5000 people protesting in the center of Copenhagen over a cartoon. Now THAT invites hatred.

It's fair to say that the Muslims of Denmark did a pretty good job of inviting hatred against them by being absolute wankers.

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And definitely many Westerners will view a Christian cartoon if printed in the Arab world differently than they will view it if printed in Europe for example.
That is perhaps true but only because the "Arab world" is not big on religious satire, is it? I mean, how often do anti-Muslims cartoons get printed in Arab newspapers?

Even so, if an anti-Christian cartoon was printed in an Arab newspaper, noone would make death threats to the newspaper, noone would boycott products of the newspaper's country and no embassy would complain and you know that damn well. There just isn't enough interest for that sort of thing over here.

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post #19 of 461 (permalink) Old February 1st, 2006, 18:43
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This is no imperfection the paper is pointing out.
You're not suggesting the extremists are legitimate representatives of Islam (or in this specific case Mohammed), are you? The paper is ridiculing those who hide behind Islam and distort it for the sake of their message of violence.

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it incites hatred
Perhaps in your mind. It didn't make me hate Muslims, and that was NOT the reaction among the vast majority in the west.

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But what the extremists have done was not the main form of reaction to these caricatures.
And that's precisely why I did not criticize those who chose to react through peaceful protest. I criticized only the maroons who threatened violence.
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post #20 of 461 (permalink) Old February 2nd, 2006, 00:11 Thread Starter
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Todays news on this issue was that several other european papers printed this pictures/cartoons. A French paper made one of their own that by describtion sounded quite fun to my ears. A picture with cariacatures of all religious figures. But like true Frenchies they surrendered on the same day and the one responsible for printing those cartoons was relieved of his work. Ah France!

Apparently racists (others too?) in Denmark today was to try on a demostrating in Copenhagen where they where supposed to burn the koran. but almost none showed up. some probably dissuaded by the police prescence.

Otherwise, what AMO said.
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